The Judeo-Christian Moral Standard

[ZDroid1]

In the beginning, God made people, and he told them not to eat a certain fruit, which he placed in a convenient location. And when they did, he cursed them and all their descendants to a life of suffering!

Then he looked one day and saw that people were naughty, so he flooded the earth and committed the first mass massacre ever, and didn't even spare the innocent children.

Then he asked Abraham to kill his own son, and rewarded him for agreeing to do it! (Call me crazy but a decent person would pass such a cruel test by NOT agreeing to do it. Abraham, the father of the so-called Abrahamic religions, most definitely failed a very basic moral test).

Then God asked the Pharaoh of a Egypt, through Moses, to free the Hebrews, but according to the Bible he "hardened" the Pharaoh's heart so as to not comply, and God responded by slaughtering all the firstborns of Egypt, none of whom had anything to do with their Pharaoh's decision.

Then God led the Jews to the Promised Land, and ordered them to slaughter and enslave countless men, women and children, often explicitly demanding that they leave no one alive, and punishing them for failing to do so.

Then God agrees to let Satan kill all of Job's children, to test Job's faith!

And of course, the grand finale: God sends Jesus to let us know that we are all "filthy rags" deserving of eternal punishment for failing to be perfect like God (some perfection!) And since we're all undeserving criminals, he won't just let it go. He requires a blood sacrifice, his own son, to quench his revengeful rage (like any blood thirsty beast in the jungle). And all we need to do is admit that we are indeed deserving of the lake of fire, to escape this impending divine holocaust.

And they call this fantastical list of crimes against our reason and humanity the "Good Book", the supreme moral standard that we must strive to meet!

The world has gone mad.

 

[ionekoa]

someone sounds a bit angry.

 

[TheBeardedMann]

Someone started drinking early today.

 

[ionekoa]

Someone started drinking early today.

it wasn't me was it? i hate when i do that.

 

[ZDroid1]

Yeah I am pissed off. I'm sick and tied of this whole Obama is a Muslim thing, and now Billy Graham's son "doubting Obama's Christianity", as if Christianity is the sh!t and everything else sucks.

 

[WAdude]

I'm pretty sure though that if a god gave you proof of him, and told you to do all that you would do It. Do you expect a human to argue with an omnipotent, omniscient, and almighty god? He'd probably smite the shit out of you for disagreing with him.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure hed know what he is doing.

BTW, drinking is bad for you if you are pregnant, you should know the risks, consult your doctor or seek medical help immediately. Jk

 

[hakr100]

Yeah I am pissed off. I'm sick and tied of this whole Obama is a Muslim thing, and now Billy Graham's son "doubting Obama's Christianity", as if Christianity is the sh!t and everything else sucks.

Christianity is a religion made up by a bunch of guys hundreds of years after the wandering Jewish rabbi they worshipped died. You know, the guy who had no interest in converting heathens or in starting a new religion or in having one named after him.

 

[ZDroid1]

If a god told me to kill my son, and I chose to do it out of fear and weakness, then it's not something to be admired or commended. It would have been actually remarkable if Abraham REFUSED to comply. That would have been truly passing the test.

But this is not about Abraham. It's about the Biblical God. What kind of God sets up a test where a person is asked to commit murder, and that person can pass the test by agreeing to do it??

That's not the highest moral standard in any way.

 

[WAdude]

If a god told me to kill my son, and I chose to do it out of fear and weakness, then it's not something to be admired or commended. It would have been actually remarkable if Abraham REFUSED to comply. That would have been truly passing the test.

But this is not about Abraham. It's about the Biblical God. What kind of God sets up a test where a person is asked to commit murder, and that person can pass the test by agreeing to do it??

That's not the highest moral standard in any way.

Again as I said, why would one question a god? It's stupid, you're an imperfect being, he's an almighty being, I'm pretty sure he knows what hes doing, I mean, he is omniscient. And the test was to see if Abraham had faith.

But seriously, why question God if he told you to kill your son, its pointless, and worthless. And if you were to kill your son In fear and weakness, you'd fail, again, the test was to see if you had faith, not fear or weakness. He'd see right through you don't you think?

And maybe its not the highest moral by your knowing, but again, he is omniscient.

 

[ZDroid1]

Again as I said, why would one question a god? It's stupid, you're an imperfect being, he's an almighty being, I'm pretty sure he knows what hes doing, I mean, he is omniscient. And the test was to see if Abraham had faith.

How can one predict the objective of such a test?

By complying, Abraham proved that he was a lemming, devoid of any discerning logic or even emotions, a slave. He might as well be worshiping Satan, if he's getting orders to kill his son.

What if God's objective was to see if Abraham has a functioning moral compass, that can tell him the difference between God and Satan? Since God would never ask you to kill an innocent person, he should have refused.

In other words, God acted like Hitler, and Abraham acted like a Nazi soldier, just following orders.

Of course, the whole thing never took place. The OP was a critique of the story for its alleged moral value as fiction.

 

[WAdude]

How can one predict the objective of such a test?

By complying, Abraham proved that he was a lemming, devoid of any discerning logic or even emotions, a slave. He might as well be worshiping Satan, if he's getting orders to kill his son.

What if God's objective was to see if Abraham has a functioning moral compass, that can tell him the difference between God and Satan? Since God would never ask you to kill an innocent person, he should have refused.

In other words, God acted like Hitler, and Abraham acted like a Nazi soldier, just following orders.

Of course, the whole thing never took place. The OP was a critique of the story for its alleged moral value as fiction.

The moral of the story is that God provides. God demands true worship and obedience, and tested that to the utmost by taking Abraham's most treasured possession, at least so it seemed. But, God stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son, and provided a proper sacrifice. Abraham was justified before God for his faith in the God that provides.

Remember, God would have already known how it would go.

 

[ZDroid1]

The moral of the story is that God provides.

The moral of the story is that when God asks you to murder your own son, you have to obey.

The moral of the story is that God is a brutal bully with tests like that. No wonder the Gnostics believe it was Satan who told Abraham to kill his son, to ensure that he was blindly loyal.

 

[hakr100]

God provides?

God provides what, exactly?

 

[WAdude]

The moral of the story is that when God asks you to murder your own son, you have to obey.

The moral of the story is that God is a brutal bully with tests like that. No wonder the Gnostics believe it was Satan who told Abraham to kill his son, to ensure that he was blindly loyal.

God provides?

God provides what, exactly?

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

^I see, you are saying that if God told Abraham to kill his son, then it would be breaking his own word. But heres the explanation:

Why would God command Abraham to sacrifice his own child?
First, we should realize what God was not doing:
God was not tempting Abraham. God was not enticing Abraham to do wrong, but was testing him to see if he would do what was right. (See the article on tempting).
God was not instituting or condoning child sacrifice. As seen in Deuteronomy 12:31 and the other passages above, God abhors child sacrifice. It's important to remember that God prevented the sacrifice from actually occurring. He did not desire the sacrifice as an act of worship or for any other reason beyond testing Abraham.
God was not telling Abraham to do wrong. God has the right to take human life (see the article on God's moral authority) and could therefore authorize Abraham to do so in a particular case. Note that had Abraham decided of his own accord to sacrifice Isaac, he would have been wrong and his act would have been condemned by God (as were other human-initiated sacrifices).
Why then would God give this command? The point was for Abraham to demonstrate that he trusted God completely and placed him above all else, even his own son.1 Though God of course already knew that Abraham had faith in him, it was necessary for Abraham to prove it through action. "His faith was made complete by what he did" (James 2:21-23). Because of his actions, not only God but Abraham, his family and future generations knew that Abraham trusted God. This trust was important because it indicated that Abraham had the proper relationship with God (he was treating God as God deserves to be treated) and could benefit from God's good plans for his life.
Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey God?
God's command to Abraham was not wrong, for God has the right to take human life (see the article on God's moral authority) and therefore had the right to command Isaac's death. Abraham had known God for many years prior to this, so he knew God's character and knew that God had the right to give this command. Had Abraham initiated the sacrifice or followed the order of someone who was not authorized by God, then his act would have been wrong.
Furthermore, Abraham knew that God had promised him offspring through Isaac, so this gave him reason to believe that God did not intend for Isaac to die permanently:

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. (Hebrews 11:17-19)
​

Some have questioned whether Abraham truly loved Isaac if he was willing to sacrifice him. But the passage itself as well as other places in Genesis point out that Abraham did love Isaac:
Isaac was the only child of his beloved wife Sarah, the son promised to him by God (Gen 17:19)
He held a feast on the day Isaac was weaned (Gen 21:8)



Hope that helps.

 

[Jammy]

If God is omniscient, why did he need to test Abraham's faith?

 

[xmastree]

The moral of the story is that when God asks you to murder your own son, you have to obey.

Morality is doing what's right, no matter what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.

If I heard a message from some 'god', instructing me to kill my child, I'd wonder what the hell was in that last drink.

 

[ZDroid1]

WADude's argument boils down to this: Even if God did in fact want someone to kill his own son, then that would not be immoral by definition since God ordered it.

So if God told you to rape some five year old girl and then burn her alive, then it's not Immoral since God authorized the action. I mean in Abraham's case, God seems to congratulate Abraham for complying, but luckily tells him there's no need to proceed!

Of course, bin Laden uses the same argument. Religion obviously allows people to not only flush their brain down the toilet, but their morality and humanity as well.

Science and evidence are wrong when they contradict the Bible. Even morality is wrong when it contradicts the Bible. Of course anyone whose brain is not enslaved by this archaic document has to conclude that it is the product of more barbaric and ignorant times, but that wouldn't be following it blindly, would it? It equates blind obedience with virtue.

 

[Chief714]

I'm going to add my 2 cents in the hopes that no one will come at me with bitterness and simply understand that this is just my belief and I'm not imposing it on anyone.

In the beginning, God made people, and he told them not to eat a certain fruit, which he placed in a convenient location. And when they did, he cursed them and all their descendants to a life of suffering!

God gave us free will. Placing this fruit is simply a test. If God made a robot to do everything he wanted then where is the free will to show love? there isn't. This curse isn't a curse, it's discipline. Just like a father scolds a child for crossing the street without looking. At the time, a child doesn't like being scolded. But as the child grows, He can see how his father saved his life then, and any time he comes to crossing a street. Same thing with discipline from God for the things we do and shouldn't. It's discipline from a Father who loves us. If I don't love a person, I can give a damn what they do....

Then he looked one day and saw that people were naughty, so he flooded the earth and committed the first mass massacre ever, and didn't even spare the innocent children.

Read that book in the Bible over. It's in Genesis. It's not just that people were being naughty. Man all over the world was in the worst state EVER. Worshipping false idols, fallen Angels mating with women and having children that were an abomination to God. It was so bad that the ONLY somewhat decent people on the earth were Noah and his family.

Then he asked Abraham to kill his own son, and rewarded him for agreeing to do it! (Call me crazy but a decent person would pass such a cruel test by NOT agreeing to do it. Abraham, the father of the so-called Abrahamic religions, most definitely failed a very basic moral test).

There's a lesson here. Read the story of Abraham. Abraham idolized his son. The only God we are to have is the One who created us. Not things that were created. God was only giving Abraham a lesson. Abraham's faith in God was proven. He knew that God knows best. If God truly wanted Isaac's life, then so be it. However, as we can see... God provided. Just like He always does. Even for those who don't believe in Him...

Then God asked the Pharaoh of a Egypt, through Moses, to free the Hebrews, but according to the Bible he "hardened" the Pharaoh's heart so as to not comply, and God responded by slaughtering all the firstborns of Egypt, none of whom had anything to do with their Pharaoh's decision.

You must read a truer translation of this story. Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his decisions to oppose God. In regards to your "slaughtering" I disagree. Looking at it from a human standpoint looks like they were simply murdered in cold blood. However, for those of us who believe in God know that children will go directly to heaven. In the case of the egyptians children, I'm sure they were saved by giving them a direct pass straight to heaven instead of letting them grow up to become children who not only Hate God but take advantage of slavery.

Then God led the Jews to the Promised Land, and ordered them to slaughter and enslave countless men, women and children, often explicitly demanding that they leave no one alive, and punishing them for failing to do so.

Again, this goes back to the first quote for me where God still gives man free will and is keeping the world from heading into that state. Same goes for your comment about the children

Then God agrees to let Satan kill all of Job's children, to test Job's faith!

God not only proved His faith in us here, He shows that God can and will multiply our blessings. Satan is the one persecuting us. That's how this whole test came about. My son is a great kid. He has his moments, but he deserves all the things he has. Some have told me that I spoiled him and he has no sense of responsibility. So, I allowed him to earn his own money, to make decisions for himself that I would normally take care of. Guess what? He proved to be more responsible than I thought he was.

And of course, the grand finale: God sends Jesus to let us know that we are all "filthy rags" deserving of eternal punishment for failing to be perfect like God (some perfection!)

We are filthy rags. Even those who claim that they're righteous. Every single one of us has had some form of foul thought and little secret that we want NOBODY to know.

And since we're all undeserving criminals, he won't just let it go. He requires a blood sacrifice, his own son, to quench his revengeful rage (like any blood thirsty beast in the jungle).

I don't understand this comment. Jesus CHRIST IS the son of God AND God incarnate. I don't think a blood thirsty beast would kill itself to quench its thirst? God is showing us His Love here. Not just by giving His only Son to pay our debt (so we don't have to pay for it ourself) but by taking this debt on his own shoulders. This is something that even the most advanced scholars in Theology can't understand because it's too much for us to understand.

And all we need to do is admit that we are indeed deserving of the lake of fire, to escape this impending divine holocaust.

No, just admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and do everything you can to follow Christ's teachings.

And they call this fantastical list of crimes against our reason and humanity the "Good Book", the supreme moral standard that we must strive to meet!

Yes. Look at the 10 commandments and tell me you've never broken one and I'll show you a liar.

Ok... I'm done... let the lashing out begin....

 

[Jammy]

Jesus CHRIST IS the son of God AND God incarnate. I don't think a blood thirsty beast would kill itself to quench its thirst? God is showing us His Love here. Not just by giving His only Son to pay our debt (so we don't have to pay for it ourself) but by taking this debt on his own shoulders. This is something that even the most advanced scholars in Theology can't understand because it's too much for us to understand. No, just admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and do everything you can to follow Christ's teachings.

I never got why an omnipotent, omniscient being would need to kill himself/his son to create a loophole in the rules he created...

 

[hakr100]

Originally Posted by Chief714
"Jesus CHRIST IS the son of God AND God incarnate. I don't think a blood thirsty beast would kill itself to quench its thirst? God is showing us His Love here. Not just by giving His only Son to pay our debt (so we don't have to pay for it ourself) but by taking this debt on his own shoulders. This is something that even the most advanced scholars in Theology can't understand because it's too much for us to understand. No, just admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and do everything you can to follow Christ's teachings."

- - - - -

Excuse me...some of us are not superstitious and do not believe unfounded statements such as "Jesus CHRIST IS the son of God AND God incarnate."

There isn't any proof there is a god, much less that that god had a son. Nothing. Zilch.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, but please don't try to pass these beliefs off to everyone as some sort of truth.

Now if you want to say "I believe Jesus CHRIST IS the son of God AND God incarnate," well that's a statement within the realm of acceptibility, because it is simply a statement of religious faith.

Religious faith is not reality.

 

[WAdude]

The reason God asked Abraham to kill his son was to see if he was able to accept the fact that there are greater things out there that are more important than his son, who he loved. By saying no to God, he'd have his head stuck up his ass because he cant accept that there are things far more greater than him or his son, even when those things (God) come to him. If Abraham said yes, then hed have faith in Gods greater word.

BTW, there's a difference if God asks you to kill your son, and you end up in jail, than if he asks you to kill your son, and you end up doing all the cool shit Abraham did. God says to follow his road and he will help you get to the final destination.

 

[hakr100]

The reason God asked Abraham to kill his son was to see if he was able to accept the fact that there are greater things out there that are more important than his son, who he loved.

God told you that, eh? Was it in an email, or did he text you?

 

[WAdude]

God told you that, eh? Was it in an email, or did he text you?

He texted that to me, 555-555-5555. Really email? Thats for phagbags like Richard Dawkins, when you got a Droid, there's no need for email.

But seriously, its like, fairly obvious.

 

[ZDroid1]

Chief714,

You are not a filthy rag, and neither am I. Your brain is poisoned with this unfounded guilt. The perfection you're imagining is non-existent. You're OK. You don't deserve eternal punishment.

 

[WAdude]

Chief714,

You are not a filthy rag, and neither am I. Your brain is poisoned with this unfounded guilt. The perfection you're imagining is non-existent. You're OK. You don't deserve eternal punishment.

His brain is just as poisoned with something greater than you, as your ls Is with your logical bullsh!t.