Debating on leaving Android for good

[lunatic59]

Can anyone suggest a decent 10" tablet. I mainly use it as a control surface for Ableton Live.

Try Samsung GT-P5210-ZWYXAR Galaxy Tab 3 10.1" 16GB Tablet with Wi-Fi - White. Or if you can make a 7" tablet work you can try Asus Google NEXUS7-ASUS-2B16 7 16GB Tablet (Gen 2).

I'd say that's about the best prices you're going to see for new brand name technology. Just so you know, woot.com is Amazon's liquidation arm and i've bought a few things from them myself with no problems. The only catch is you have to act quickly because they inventory runs out quickly.

 

[funpig]

I can empathize with the OP. I carry a Samsung tablet and an LG phone. We have an iPad 3 at home. The ipad get timely updates and fixes. On the other hand, i suffered from non-existent to delayed to buggy updates from both Samsung and LG. On my Samsung, I had to get an update for my Canadian tablet from the UK. Inexplicably, Canada still does not have an official update for the same device after almost 3 years. Why would they have a working update for one country and not make it available in another country? And the UK os works perfectly fine on my Canadian device! A company like Samsung makes their money by selling you new hardware. They do not make any money selling apps or supporting an existing device.

On the other hand, Apple makes a lot of money from their apps and makes a real effort to support their older devices. If you are rich and want the latest and best, apple will be more than happy to sell you anew device every year. But if you want to invest in a device to use for two, three or four years down the road, an Apple is a pretty safe bet.

If you stay with Android, i would suggest buying a Nexus. At least you will have google's commitment to support it for a few years.

 

[bjacks12]

+1 on the Nexus, but I would wait until the next model is announced. The most recent Nexus tablet is a year old already.

 

[dibblebill]

I can empathize with the OP. I carry a Samsung tablet and an LG phone. We have an iPad 3 at home. The ipad get timely updates and fixes. On the other hand, i suffered from non-existent to delayed to buggy updates from both Samsung and LG. On my Samsung, I had to get an update for my Canadian tablet from the UK. Inexplicably, Canada still does not have an official update for the same device after almost 3 years. Why would they have a working update for one country and not make it available in another country? And the UK os works perfectly fine on my Canadian device! A company like Samsung makes their money by selling you new hardware. They do not make any money selling apps or supporting an existing device.

On the other hand, Apple makes a lot of money from their apps and makes a real effort to support their older devices. If you are rich and want the latest and best, apple will be more than happy to sell you anew device every year. But if you want to invest in a device to use for two, three or four years down the road, an Apple is a pretty safe bet.

If you stay with Android, i would suggest buying a Nexus. At least you will have google's commitment to support it for a few years.

I strongly disagree. 18 to 24 months, sure. I had three year old Apple hardware. It was abandoned just like old Android devices. The difference was that I was lucky enough to have well supported devices in the community and got unofficial Android updates.

 

[nickdalzell]

If the excuse Google gives regarding the GNex is true, why is it that Cyanogenmod had no problems getting Kit Kat to run on the thing? Google too lazy even hackers have out-Innovated them.

The iPod touch 4G wasn't even two years old and it never got iOS 7. It stopped at iOS 6 (which even that was pared down and lacked tons of the benefits of 6)

 

[chanchan05]

CyanogenMod uses the old drivers AFAIK. It's not a Google excuse. Basically it's the same reason why the old Nexus 7 isn't performing up to par when Google tried using old drivers on the newer update (because Nvidia stopped making drivers). Not even the guys on CM have the capability to make new drivers for the GNex unless one of them has the diagrams from TI and know what do with them. Even if Google can make drivers themselves, being proprietary property, Google can't legally make their own drivers for the chip TI made, basically because Google will earn in distributing it. CM is a different story because well, they're not exactly earning directly from distributing the drivers to Nexus devices.

Think of it as like those generic PC drivers available on the internet that didn't come from the manufacturer's websites/sources.

Addendum:
You don't really need specific drivers to run hardware. For example, I have a 6 year old laptop running Win7 using the Vista drivers because there are no Win7 drivers for some of the components.

 

[nickdalzell]

Still proves that which Google never tried. That it is indeed possible to run the new OS on the GNex. Even though Google claimed 'it can't be done'. Again, laziness. Same goes for their crap excuse for lack of transparent bars on the Nexus 10, even though custom ROMs proved the 'performance issues' lie as a lie. The Nexus 10 is the most powerful in the Nexus line. Are we seriously expected to buy their excuse? They should fire their developers and get some with more experience.

Their excuse for not having an SD card in the Nexus and Motorola line is also crap. Everybody knows they are selling their cloud services and forcing you to buy the higher capacities at a higher price, same as Apple. If they would just tell the truth I'd have far more respect for Google.

 

[boyo1991]

Its a constant battle that one is... I like to learn about the newest tech ect ect. But I'm actually on galaxy s3. The g3 looks awesome.. But will I get it? Heck no... I may need a new device soon as the screen is going out on my s3 but I'll stick to mid range tyvm. Works just fine. Its like the PC wars all over again. Everyone's realizing the super duper power devices are cool and all, but we don't REALLY need that. One year we may spoil ourselves and get the high end.. But its not an every upgrade deal...

 

[AnonGuy]

I think you're somewhat fooling yourself that Apple users have it better.

Go buy an iPhone 3 (about the equivalent of your Thrive on Android 3.1) and you'll find that you're pretty much stuck with a really old iOS...because the hardware won't support the newer versions. Same thing with the iPad, you can get the gen 1, even the 32gb version, for not much more than $120 since it is all the oldest hardware and can't be upgraded.

The iPhone 3 was released in 2008/2009 (depending on whether you're speaking of a 3G or 3GS).

That's far from the equivalent of the Thrive. Android 3.0 was released after GB, which wasn't released until late 2010 or early 2011. The iPhone 4 was released when FroYo was the latest version of Android, a few months after the first Galaxy S phone hit the market, so it's impossible that an iPhone 3G is anything comparable to a Thrive in Release Timeframe or Support Lifecycle. The 3GS was supported up until iOS 6. The iPhone 4 up until iOS 7. That's a solid 4 years of Support for each of those devices. No Android device, ever, has matched that. Not even a Nexus.

How big a tablet you want? I don't know of any specials on tens, but Costco has the 7" Galaxy tab on sale for a great price right now, $160. That's a buy-in for current technology, so you should be good for a few years. Amortize it, that's what, 40 or fifty bucks a year.

The Tab Line is Samsung's Low End/Mid Range line and will eventually see the same issues that the OP is seeing with their older hardware. They are low priority for updates. Samsung has Tab Pro and Tab S lines to worry about.

That is part of the risk of going with an OEM with a metric ton of devices/device tiers.

Apple is able to keep their iPhones up to date well because they use Standardized Hardware and only have to worry about their own models to update, a very limited number of models compared to an OEM like Samsung or LG. Some Android OEMs like Motorola are moving in that direction, and have benefitted from the higher update mobility as a result (being almost as good as the Nexus program at delivering updates to their flagships).

** Changing platforms shouldn't necessarily be about updates, but about user requirements. If your phone does what you need it to do, and runs the apps that you need to use, then updates shouldn't be a huge priority because they've become less and less amazing as time has gone on. This whole focus on "new design this" and "new design that" is just a smokescreen to the fact that overall the OSes aren't really offering much new in these newer updates, just changing the looks (innovation is slowing a bit in that area, but it can pick up tomorrow for all we know).

The only thing I worry about is security updates. Major security holes should be patched and pushed out to users ASAP, and that sadly is an area where Android users tend to lose out compared to iOS, Windows Phone, and Blackberry.

 

[AnonGuy]

That's over three years old, released July 2011 and made by Toshiba.

The problem isn't Android, the problem is you. Clearly you never did any research because you bought a Tablet from Toshiba and expect software updates three years after release. That's almost funny.

It is not Google's responsibly to upgrade Toshiba's tablets.

You're assuming that the OP expected 3+ years of support.

If the device was updated to ICS and then to JB 4.1.2 I doubt he would have been as disenchanted as he currently is. That's basically the way the Galaxy S2 was updated (except it started at GB 2.3.x) and I don't see any of those users complaining about bad support from Samsung.

Fact is, Samsung and other OEMs aren't much better than Toshiba if you aren't buying their top of the line devices or Associated "Minis." I think the fact that Flagships are so popular in some regions distorts some people's view on how decent the OEMs generally are with delivering updates.

Buying a Tab 4 is generally asking to be disappointed with the way Samsung's Tablet Lines are set up, just as buying a PAYGO Galaxy Express is regarding smartphone updates.

 

[nickdalzell]

The Tab 4 actually is a very decent ebook reader. Though I wouldn't ask more than that from it.

Being a massive techno geek I always buy a new product at launch (well, delayed launch here in redneck town) to see and review it fairly. Got tons of tablets wasting away in storage shortly after if they don't make the cut but they make excellent test subjects for rooting and ROMs.

 

[AnonGuy]

If the excuse Google gives regarding the GNex is true, why is it that Cyanogenmod had no problems getting Kit Kat to run on the thing? Google too lazy even hackers have out-Innovated them.

The iPod touch 4G wasn't even two years old and it never got iOS 7. It stopped at iOS 6 (which even that was pared down and lacked tons of the benefits of 6)

A PMP is not a phone, and the iPod Touch 4th Gen had terrible hardware. The thing only had 256 MB RAM and it had a slow/underclocked processor, slower storage, TINY battery, etc. At iOS 5 the thing was already running like it was on life support (was flawless on iOS 4, though). I can't imagine what it ran like on iOS 6.

It was a smart device designed primarily for media playback.

Samsung's Galaxy Players (that they probably would rather forget right now) didn't get nearly the support that device got from Apple. Compare Apples to Apples.

 

[AnonGuy]

The Tab 4 actually is a very decent ebook reader. Though I wouldn't ask more than that from it.

Being a massive techno geek I always buy a new product at launch (well, delayed launch here in redneck town) to see and review it fairly. Got tons of tablets wasting away in storage shortly after if they don't make the cut but they make excellent test subjects for rooting and ROMs.

Correct, but you don't need super FW Update support to run Kindle, Nook, Google Play Books, etc. apps and read eBooks. Which is why I said user requirements should dictate what to buy as it's the most important indicator of what device would work best for that user.

If I was just wanting to read eBooks, I'd get a super cheap Nook HD/HD+ or Kindle Fire HD, since the screens (on the Nooks) are superior to the Tab 4 and I don't care about support/updates to read eBooks.

I went to the iPhone 5S but hopped back to Android because I couldn't save Videos from my Camera Roll to SkyDrive. Sounds like something simple, but it's a usability faux pas with the way I use my device and what I use it for. I had to get rid of it.

 

[nickdalzell]

The Kindle Fire HD also costs twice as much as the Tab 4. I prefer the consistency since I use so many Samsung products and they haven't failed me yet.

The Fire would become attractive if it were not so forked over, to the point of being useless. If they added in the Whispernet 3G that the paper white had, I might reconsider the purchase. At least the tab 4 is a full fledged android tablet.

 

[bjacks12]

I like my 1st gen Fire ok, IIRC there wasn't really anything worth buying in its price range in Dec of 2011. I don't use it for much, but I do play the occasional game or stream Netflix on it, or use it for reading. Not a huge fan of their forked OS though.

 

[nickdalzell]

The Fire HD and HDX are overpriced especially given the forked OS and locking you into Amazon.

Over $249 vs. The Tab 4 7's $169. You get a full fledged Android device and 4GB more storage than you'd get on the Fire HD. Also multi Window and many other features I find useful. So if I one day chose to do something other than read books, I can. Say, I can cast some movies to Chromecast. Can't do that on a Fire HD. Or perhaps download some YouTube videos and screen mirror them to my large TV? Can't do that on the Fire HD either. Why pay more to get less?

 

[chanchan05]

Not really sure about the bad updates from Samsung. I have a Tab Plus that got updated from 3.1 to 4.0 to 4.1.2. And this was when it had already released the Tab 2 lineup.

 

[Medion]

I'm debating on leaving the Android scene for good since every update seems to force me into getting the latest and greatest tablet/phone/whatever. I don't have the disposable income that most people seem to have. I have tried to sell my old device but collectively I made about $60 for 8 devices.

I love Android but this is going to cost me too much in the long run. Looking at Apple, it is expensive initially but at least I can upgrade the OS for a while till I have to get a new device. With Android, it feels like I have to buy a new device for every update.

I currently have a Toshiba Thrive AT100 running Android 3.1 that can't be upgraded any further. With the device manufacturers forcing these new purchases every time, it seems that Apple is cheaper in the long run.

If anyone can tell me of a 10" tablet that can actually update the OS with LTS and be fairly inexpensive then I would stay with Android.

I only skimmed the responses due to limited time, so I apologize in advance if this has been covered already.

Google and Apple have two very different approaches to updates. Google separates apps, APIs, and hardware support into three different areas while Apple does all three at once. Let's take a look at how each one compares, and then we'll see just which devices really are outdated in terms of software support

Apps:

Google has been breaking out their core apps since shortly after Android launched. On the iPhone, you get your Safari changes with firmeware updates. On Android, you get your Chrome changes every 6-8 weeks like clockwork, independent of the firmware. Google has recently even broken out their launcher, non-Gmail email client, and their camera. These apps can be updated on several phones released from late 2009. You know what iPhone was available in late 2009? The iPhone 3Gs (the 4 came out June 2010). That model is on iOS 6.1.6. Support is dead.

Also note that OEMS like HTC, Samsung, and Motorola are also breaking out their apps independent of the firmware.

APIs:

Google has rolled most of their API support into Google Play Services, which updates silently on most devices in the background roughly every 6 weeks. This recently had support removed for Android 2.2, so it now only supports Android 2.3 devices and newer. This helps newer applications run on older devices. This coincides with largely Google's apps policy, though many of their apps still support Android 2.2. Some of the earlier devices still rocking Gingerbread are the Nexus One, HTC Desire, and Droid Incredible, all from early to mid 2010. So, Google Play Services supports devices as old as or older than the oldest iPhone on the current iOS (iPhone 4).

Hardware:

That leaves the core Android OS. These updates often bring user facing features that are hardware dependent, though not always. Recent changes that are surprisingly hardware dependent are ART (Android Runtime) and some APIs (OpenGL ES 3.0 and 3.1). The latter, paired with the Bluetooth LE and 4.0 changes in Android 4.3, were 100% useless on older hardware that didn't support them. But hey, some people want that latest version number even if it is useless. As for ART, it only works on hardware if the SOC vendor (Qualcomm, Nvidia, Intel, TI, Samsung, etc.) has certified their device to run it - partly why the Nexus 10 on KitKat couldn't run it on Android 4.4's developer options.

Now, some changes aren't hardware dependent, such as Google's memory optimizations (KitKat) or new design language (L-release). But here's the funny thing about that. The majority of the material design changes will be in the individual apps (to include Google's Now Launcher), which when fully updated to use material design, will still work on older handsets. There are certain minor details that will be unique to the L-release, but otherwise you're fine. Also, Google has stated that their biggest change to their memory usage in KitKat was actually them reducing the footprint of their own applications and encouraging other developers to do so as well. On a Nexus or GPE device with no 3rd party apps (factory reset), this meant roughly 75-100MB less memory consumed on boot due mainly to smaller usage by Google's stock applications. These benefits also help non-KitKat devices.

Conclusion:

If you're on iOS, you need the latest firmware or you'll find that your device is quickly being abandoned by developers. If you're on Android, the latest OS only matters if you have the latest hardware. Yes, some vendors have been negligent in pushing updates that should otherwise have been pushed.

It seems you're desiring to upgrade to keep up with a perceived deficiency. Ask yourself this before you upgrade - "Is there anything that my device does not currently do, that I want/need it to do, that a new device would do?" If the only answer you can come up with is "I need the latest version of Android," then you don't need to upgrade.

 

[Medion]

@boathead - the reason the Galaxy Nexus did not get updated because in 2012, Texas Instruments (the company that made the CPU of that phone) stopped building microprocessors, so Google can't get updated drivers for the GN even if they wanted to.

Google Glass runs a variant of that SOC and has the drivers. TI is still providing support to the vendors that request it.

Google's official response on why the Galaxy Nexus didn't get KitKat is:

Galaxy Nexus, which first launched two years ago, falls outside of the 18-month update window when Google and others traditionally update devices

No KitKat for Samsung's Galaxy Nexus - it's too old for Android 4.4, says Google | ZDNet

Google always does this. They've done it for EVERY Nexus device. And to follow this trend, they will NOT release Android L for the Nexus 4, even though the hardware support will be there by Qualcomm.

 

[jhawkkw]

Google Glass runs a variant of that SOC and has the drivers. TI is still providing support to the vendors that request it.

Google's official response on why the Galaxy Nexus didn't get KitKat is:



No KitKat for Samsung's Galaxy Nexus - it's too old for Android 4.4, says Google | ZDNet

Google always does this. They've done it for EVERY Nexus device. And to follow this trend, they will NOT release Android L for the Nexus 4, even though the hardware support will be there by Qualcomm.

Beat me to it, I was just about to mention this about Glass.

Conclusion:

If you're on iOS, you need the latest firmware or you'll find that your device is quickly being abandoned by developers. If you're on Android, the latest OS only matters if you have the latest hardware. Yes, some vendors have been negligent in pushing updates that should otherwise have been pushed.

It seems you're desiring to upgrade to keep up with a perceived deficiency. Ask yourself this before you upgrade - "Is there anything that my device does not currently do, that I want/need it to do, that a new device would do?" If the only answer you can come up with is "I need the latest version of Android," then you don't need to upgrade.

There are two other elements not mentioned and that would be security updates and bug fixes. Some can be pushed through play services updates or app updates, but others do have to be pushed through OTA updates to the OS. On non-Nexus devices, these updates don't usually bump your android version number.

 

[Medion]

There are two other elements not mentioned and that would be security updates and bug fixes. Some can be pushed through play services updates or app updates, but others do have to be pushed through OTA updates to the OS. On non-Nexus devices, these updates don't usually bump your android version number.

This is correct, and thank you for mentioning this.

The recent OpenSSL fix in Android 4.4.4 is a perfect example. This was a flaw in how Android handles cryptographic signatures. The "fix" in Google Play Services isn't a real fix. It's like adding a virus scanner. The fix on Google's end prevents apps from being uploaded to the Play Store with this exploit and scans for it on your phone (if enabled) even for sideloaded apps. So, MOST people won't be affected by this glitch even without the real fix in Android 4.4.4. But since it was literally only a few lines of code, some OEMs (like HTC) just added it in to their already baked 4.4.2 or 4.4.3 updates. But there are SOME fanboys who just NEED that .4 at the end. They could literally just edit build.prop to 4.4.4 and get the same benefit as an actual OTA.

 

[bjacks12]

Google always does this. They've done it for EVERY Nexus device. And to follow this trend, they will NOT release Android L for the Nexus 4, even though the hardware support will be there by Qualcomm.

What about the source they released for the N4? Or the screenshots of L that were taken in 1280 x 768?

Things change at Google, and I honestly believe we Nexus 4 owners will get L.

 

[nickdalzell]

oh for sure they'll get it as well as the still-in-support Nexus 10. whether or not it will be extremely pared down to the point of being disappointing as KitKat was, is up for debate. i'm just sick of their excuses only an iSheep would believe. i like some of their products, namely Wear and Chromecast but the rest are inexcusable omissions.

I always thought the point of the Nexus line was no fragmentation and updates being available before anyone else. but they can't even support the entire line that's in the 18 month support cycle consistently. the Nexus 5 seems to have been the exception.

While L is supposed to have ART by default, i'm guessing it will be omitted from the 10 and there'll be some lame excuse they will use to justify it.

 

[bjacks12]

Who knows what will happen. I know there were a few hardware based things we didn't get, like the audio. But that's technology. I've been happy with the KitKat upgrade so far. It has made the phone run smoother. And I look forward to the new UI.

The only features my phone lacks that I want are hardware based(LTE and an IR Blaster).

 

[Medion]

What about the source they released for the N4? Or the screenshots of L that were taken in 1280 x 768?

Things change at Google, and I honestly believe we Nexus 4 owners will get L.

The only builds I've seen for the Nexus 4 were ports from the N5/N7 by other developers. If you have any links to Google specifically releasing source for the Nexus 4, please share. I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again