Debating on leaving Android for good

[Medion]

Old news now, but lets be real here, the drivers on the GNex are hacked to hell and back. There were big bugs for quite some time and its actually running the old kernel it had in Jelly Bean (Linux 3.0 vs 3.8). The fact that its mostly stable and usable says more about the craftiness of the CM team then anything.

Could Google do it? Probably. Would it be worth their time to convince TI to get proper drivers? Probably not. At least, that's the way they felt.

Google has the drivers and they're already using KitKat builds for some TI-based devices (like Glass). As posted before, Google's official stance is that they only support their Nexus devices through an 18 month window after launch. This has been true of every Nexus to date. I will be shocked if the Nexus 4 gets Android-L, even though we all know it's more than capable of running it.

 

[dibblebill]

Doesn't mean it's the same TI processor and same drivers, I'd point out as a one-time ROM builder/developer. The disclaimer/caveat I'll place there is that I haven't researched the hardware being used in Glass. It COULD be the same hardware and I wouldn't really know.

I'd also like to point out some things about the N10- I've not really run into many "App not compatible" issues with it at all, so much as poor performance in certain games (other ones I'd rate as "acceptable" like Asphalt 8). True, ART was only available in custom ROM's. I can't really disagree on other points, but it did have a great battery and screen.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Please stick with Android. Don't make the same mistake I did.

I switched to an iphone in December 2012. It's a good phone. The OS is very easy to use. But every phone is so small, and when the big iphone comes out, you'll have to wait a year until it drops to a reasonably priced option (compared to an Android). And at that point, the iPhone you're looking at becomes an antique.

Remember when the Galaxy S3 came out? That was almost two years ago, and it was hyped to be the best thing on the planet. But people who have it are still very happy.

Almost any iPhone user with a "plain" 5 is sick of it. I had a 4S, and with the updated iOS, the phone got really slow.

When I left behind my Droid 4 for an iPhone, I thought I was making the right choice. I'm not here to sh** on apple, because both companies make good phones. But Androids don't become outdated nearly as fast and are a lot less expensive. When comparing the same apps, I found them to be cheaper in Google Play than in the App Store.

 

[AnonGuy]

Please stick with Android. Don't make the same mistake I did.

I switched to an iphone in December 2012. It's a good phone. The OS is very easy to use. But every phone is so small, and when the big iphone comes out, you'll have to wait a year until it drops to a reasonably priced option (compared to an Android). And at that point, the iPhone you're looking at becomes an antique.

Remember when the Galaxy S3 came out? That was almost two years ago, and it was hyped to be the best thing on the planet. But people who have it are still very happy.

Almost any iPhone user with a "plain" 5 is sick of it. I had a 4S, and with the updated iOS, the phone got really slow.

When I left behind my Droid 4 for an iPhone, I thought I was making the right choice. I'm not here to sh** on apple, because both companies make good phones. But Androids don't become outdated nearly as fast and are a lot less expensive. When comparing the same apps, I found them to be cheaper in Google Play than in the App Store.

The GS5 is at least a $600 phone off contract. The iPhone is $650. That is not unreasonable in the grand scheme of things.

Android phones go out of support far faster than iPhone do. The hardware is non factor. It's 2014 who cares other than spec monkeys. It's time for Android OEMs to step it up and deliver updates super fast and support their devices at least as long as Microsoft is, never mind Apple.

I don't understand your logic... there are flagship Android phones with cameras that struggle to compete with the iPhone 5 never mind the 5S. The GPU in Apple devices is market leading. From a services end they are knocking it out of the park in some areas.

Apple doesn't play the spec race game. They don't have to. They own their platform and no one else uses it.

Don't miss the forest through the trees.

People buying specs these days are doing it wrong. Most of the power in these Android devices is completely untapped, and that's clear just looking at the disparity in capabilities between devices with similar hardware specs. The G2 is missing a ton of features the Note 3 has despite having the Same SoC and a very capable camera sensor.

I at least give Samsung props for putting all that hardware to use. Most other OEMs do far worse, and a Nexus device is a major waste of hardware (but at least they're cheap).

Another Secret weapon of the iPhone is Apple's vast API surface. iOS developers have had access to things on that platform basically for free that Android developers have to reinvent the wheel on. They're just getting around to putting decent Camera API in the platform, for example, but iOS has had this for years. There are some great iOS apps they aren't on Android simply because the lack of Universal API for some things makes it too hard to develop those apps here, while they are easy on iOS.

 

[zipred]

I've worked in the tech industry for years before the advent of smartphones. In those days it was Apple computers vs Microsoft Windows, that was the topic of bickering like I'm observing in this thread. Led by the highly narcissistic Steve Jobs, Apple's always been very polarizing. I myself used an Apple computer and a Windows PC out of choice since I'm a platform neutral avid tech enthusiast. I continue to use both currently.

Fast forward to today, some things never change. Apples culture and cult like following (not being critical just an honest observation) is convinced iPhones are far superior to anything on the market. So passionate and convinced, some will make up horror stories of dreadful problems with Android phones. Apple lovers and pro Apple press locked onto the word "fragmentation" and parlayed that into an imaginary Android disease.

At the end of the day I've bought every iPhone and many Android flagships since each platform was created. What I _know_ is these are two distinctly different approaches to creating a smartphone, and both are excellent.

Why not celebrate having choices, instead of bashing the platform you don't like. Whatever you like is ideal for you, which from my perspective is all that matters.

 

[Medion]

Doesn't mean it's the same TI processor and same drivers, I'd point out as a one-time ROM builder/developer. The disclaimer/caveat I'll place there is that I haven't researched the hardware being used in Glass. It COULD be the same hardware and I wouldn't really know.

I've also been a ROM developer, albeit not a very inspired one and I've removed myself from it since 2012.

With that said, I have researched the hardware. The Galaxy Nexus uses the TI OMAP 4460, which for this model was underclocked to 1.2ghz (dual-core Cortex A9) and used a PowerVR SGX540 at up to 384mhz.

Google Glass is/was powered by the TI OMAP 4430. They're the same SOC just binned versions. The 4430 caps at 1.2ghz (CPU) and 304-369mhz (GPU). They use the same drivers.

Anyway, a lot of people were (incorrectly) speculating that the reason that the Galaxy Nexus was dropped was because of TI. This is incorrect, as TI is still making their processors for new devices (a variant of which is rumored to power the upcoming Moto 360). TI has promised to deliver software support for their chipsets to OEMS for the indefinite future, and while they're going more for embedded devices than mobile these days, Android kernel support is still an important aspect of their plans.

Google has ALWAYS ceased support of Nexus phones after 18 months, which means that only 2 Nexus phones are supported concurrently. This isn't new.

Nexus One - released on 2.1, stopped at 2.3.6, support ceased prior to launch of Galaxy Nexus.

Nexus S - released on 2.3, stopped at 4.1.2, support ceased prior to launch of Nexus 4.

Galaxy Nexus - released on 4.0, stopped at 4.3, support ceased prior to launch of Nexus 5.

Nexus 4 - released on 4.2, and if pattern holds, should stop at 4.4.x, prior to release of the next Nexus phone.

 

[mikedt]

I think the one thing Apple has to do this year is to produce a larger iPhone, at least 5 inch screen. In this country especially, small and precious may not be enough any more. From what I've seen lately, Samsung is winning.

Here's a sight I just don't see too often at the Apple stores...

Samsung stores...every couple of weeks.

 

[AnonGuy]

I think the one thing Apple has to do this year is to produce a larger iPhone, at least 5 inch screen. In this country especially, small and precious may not be enough any more. From what I've seen lately, Samsung is winning.

Here's a sight I just don't see too often at the Apple stores...

Samsung stores...every couple of weeks.

The 5 was bigger than the 4S and the 6 will be bigger than the 5S, and not much smaller than a GS5 or HTC One M8 in screen size. I think they'll be fine for size.

I hope you aren't seriously trying to compare demand for Samsung products to Apple's. One is declining in sales and the other still can't keep enough flagship in stock to meet demand.

 

[mikedt]

The 5 was bigger than the 4S and the 6 will be bigger than the 5S, and not much smaller than a GS5 or HTC One M8 in screen size. I think they'll be fine for size.

I hope you aren't seriously trying to compare demand for Samsung products to Apple's. One is declining in sales and the other still can't keep enough flagship in stock to meet demand.

Oh I can and do, especially in this country, and it can be rather difficult not to, right in my own neighbourhood....

And see a lot of this all over the country, both Samsung and Apple stores right next to each other.

And with the S5 and Note 3, they're firmly playing the luxury game, just like Apple. $900 for an S5 anyone? iPhone 5S is around the same price. NO carrier subsidy available. ...and the average wage is probably around $200-300 a month. Things can be somewhat different between the PRC and the USA or the UK. The Samsung store got a crowd, because it was a competition to win a bicycle...as if people haven't got enough bicycles already.

BTW I do have a Samsung, a mid-range Galaxy Win Duos I bought last year, but can't justify spending a packet on one, any more than I can for an iPhone. So I bought a Chinese flagship this year....Oppo.

 

[mikedt]

This appeared yesterday...

Less than a minute's walk from the other two neighbouring Apple/Samsung stores.

Any wonder why I will often compare the two as being very similar?

 

[AnonGuy]

What country. I've never seen a line for Samsung phones here in the USA. We don't even know what phones they're going for. A lot of those people can be there for accessories.

It's almost impossible to get an iPhone on launch day here unless you camp out for a week or are very fast with pre-ordering, nor do we know which phones they're buying.

Samsung doesn't not match Apple for sales on their flagship models. They never have and with the current trend in sales/demand Apple will blow them away in a month or two.

Really pictures don't even matter all that much, since. The numbers are available.

 

[mikedt]

What country. I've never seen a line for Samsung phones here in the USA. We don't even know what phones they're going for. A lot of those people can be there for accessories.

It's almost impossible to get an iPhone on launch day here unless you camp out for a week or are very fast with pre-ordering, nor do we know which phones they're buying.

Samsung doesn't not match Apple for sales on their flagship models. They never have and with the current trend in sales/demand Apple will blow them away in a month or two.

Really pictures don't even matter all that much, since. The numbers are available.

I'm talking about China, where I am. If it's sales numbers for the USA, that doesn't have much meaning for what I'm seeing. Think Apple will have to do a larger iPhone, we like large phones here, often >5 inch. And Samsung, along with the numerous Chinese manufacturers seem to be doing very well with them, thank you very much. :thumbup: Apple usually delays the launch of their new products here, and then charges premium prices for them. Samsung doesn't delay their products in China, and apart from the premium flagships like S5 and Note 3, most of their phones are much more reasonably priced than Apple, like the Galaxy Megas, which seem to be very popular now.

Most people I know with iPhones, they're using iPhone 4s and 5, or even knock-offs. not 5C or 5S...too expensive. The iPhone 5S when it came out was equivalent of $1000, which is firmly within the Gucci or Prada type product range. The next step up is Vertu and Goldvish. ...and there's no way I'm paying $900-1000 for a mobile phone. iPhones along with flagship Samsungs are much more affordable in the UK, mainly because of carrier subsidies, same in the US.


BTW I hardly see anything of Windows Phone, and Blackberry is out of the game completely.

 

[AnonGuy]

I'm talking about China, where I am. If it's sales numbers for the USA, that doesn't have much meaning for what I'm seeing. Think Apple will have to do a larger iPhone, we like large phones here, often >5 inch. And Samsung, along with the numerous Chinese manufacturers seem to be doing very well with them, thank you very much. :thumbup: Apple usually delays the launch of their new products here, and then charges premium prices for them. Samsung doesn't delay their products in China, and apart from the premium flagships like S5 and Note 3, most of their phones are much more reasonably priced than Apple, like the Galaxy Megas, which seem to be very popular now.

Most people I know with iPhones, they're using iPhone 4s and 5, or even knock-offs. not 5C or 5S...too expensive. The iPhone 5S when it came out was equivalent of $1000, which is firmly within the Gucci or Prada type product range. The next step up is Vertu and Goldvish. ...and there's no way I'm paying $900-1000 for a mobile phone. iPhones along with flagship Samsungs are much more affordable in the UK, mainly because of carrier subsidies, same in the US.


BTW I hardly see anything of Windows Phone, and Blackberry is out of the game completely.

Samsung's sales are declining in China, while Apple's are growing. Additionally, the majority of Samsung's sales there are lower to mid-range devices, not flagships.

There are lines outside the Apple Stores, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Carrier Stores, everywhere here when the iPhone launches. We're going to see it on the news this year like every other year. People camp out for days and pay people money to hold their spot in the lines to get that phone. No Samsung product launch has ever compared to that.

Everyone knows Android is tops in China, but to post a screenshot and act like demand for Samsung devices are on par with the iPhone (when the iPhone has consistently outsold every single Android device in a head to head comparison of sales figures) is highly misleading. There are like 30 people or less in front of that Samsung store. Go to any Apple store in a decent sized city and there are probably at least that many in the store.

Those "lines" are laughable compared to what happens when an iPhone launches here, and Apple Stores are among the highest profit per square footage in the world.

Galaxy Mega was almost $450 and it was fairly mid-ranged compared to the S4. You can get a 5C for $100 and still have a more capable device seeing as how Samsung typically uses downgraded Hardware in those. All of Samsung's Mid-Range phones are overpriced compared to most of their competitors, especially the Chinese OEMs, which is part of the reason why their sales are declining. I think even Xiaomi is outselling them in China, now? Apple doesn't feel much pricing pressure from Android OEMs, because they are *not* an Android OEM - which is why comparing prices the way you are, or complaining about Apple's pricing makes no sense. Apple is not in the business to sell the most phones, but rake in the most profits by roping in the most affluent customers they can get their hands on (which means their App/Media Stores tend to perform much better with disproportionately less customers accessing them). If they wanted to do it the Android way, it would not be hard for them to build a cheap mid-ranged iOS device and proliferate it everywhere.

If you want Apple's OS or their Ecosystem, then you have to buy Apple. The fact that they have a high quality product and a very high quality, valuable, expansive ecosystem with 1st priority from developers is a huge win for them and totally exclusive to them. They don't have to compete with Samsung the same way Samsung has to compete with HTC, for example. The rules of engagement are different when you're in a different ecosystem.

 

[zipred]

Samsung's sales are declining in China, while Apple's are growing. Additionally, the majority of Samsung's sales there are lower to mid-range devices, not flagships.

There are lines outside the Apple Stores, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Carrier Stores, everywhere here when the iPhone launches. We're going to see it on the news this year like every other year. People camp out for days and pay people money to hold their spot in the lines to get that phone. No Samsung product launch has ever compared to that.

Everyone knows Android is tops in China, but to post a screenshot and act like demand for Samsung devices are on par with the iPhone (when the iPhone has consistently outsold every single Android device in a head to head comparison of sales figures) is highly misleading. There are like 30 people or less in front of that Samsung store. Go to any Apple store in a decent sized city and there are probably at least that many in the store.

Those "lines" are laughable compared to what happens when an iPhone launches here, and Apple Stores are among the highest profit per square footage in the world.

Galaxy Mega was almost $450 and it was fairly mid-ranged compared to the S4. You can get a 5C for $100 and still have a more capable device seeing as how Samsung typically uses downgraded Hardware in those. All of Samsung's Mid-Range phones are overpriced compared to most of their competitors, especially the Chinese OEMs, which is part of the reason why their sales are declining. I think even Xiaomi is outselling them in China, now? Apple doesn't feel much pricing pressure from Android OEMs, because they are *not* an Android OEM - which is why comparing prices the way you are, or complaining about Apple's pricing makes no sense. Apple is not in the business to sell the most phones, but rake in the most profits by roping in the most affluent customers they can get their hands on (which means their App/Media Stores tend to perform much better with disproportionately less customers accessing them). If they wanted to do it the Android way, it would not be hard for them to build a cheap mid-ranged iOS device and proliferate it everywhere.

If you want Apple's OS or their Ecosystem, then you have to buy Apple. The fact that they have a high quality product and a very high quality, valuable, expansive ecosystem with 1st priority from developers is a huge win for them and totally exclusive to them. They don't have to compete with Samsung the same way Samsung has to compete with HTC, for example. The rules of engagement are different when you're in a different ecosystem.

You seem to be very emotionally dependent on Apple, and heavily involved as a promoter of their product.

I find it curious that you're spending this much of your time attempting to make a point that's well known about the Apple Faithful.

 

[dibblebill]

You seem to be very emotionally dependent on Apple, and heavily involved as a promoter of their product.

I find it curious that you're spending this much of your time attempting to make a point that's well known about the Apple Faithful.

I find it doubtful an Apple employer/professional promoter would be touting Galaxy Notes...

 

[mikedt]

Galaxy Mega was almost $450 and it was fairly mid-ranged compared to the S4. You can get a 5C for $100 and still have a more capable device seeing as how Samsung typically uses downgraded Hardware in those.

Not here we can't. Maybe with a carrier subsidy and two year contract, but here the bottom-of-the-range 8GB 5C is 4088 yuan CNY, which is actually $665 USD. That makes iPhones too expensive for many people here, that's why there's so many counterfeits, along with all the fake Gucci handbags. Too expensive for me as well. Mobile phones are not subsidised here, always have to pay full retail for them.
iPhone 5c - 选

 

[mikedt]

You seem to be very emotionally dependent on Apple, and heavily involved as a promoter of their product.

I find it curious that you're spending this much of your time attempting to make a point that's well known about the Apple Faithful.

I'm a bit confused about @AnonGuy actually, seems very pro Apple, yet his avatar is showing a couple of Samsung phones, and device is shown as a "Samsung Galaxy Note 3".

 

[zipred]

I'm a bit confused about @AnonGuy actually, seems very pro Apple, yet his avatar is showing a couple of Samsung phones, and device is shown as a "Samsung Galaxy Note 3".

I concur. After reading the posts authored by @AnonGuy, I too am rather confused and uncertain just what he's trying to accomplish. While I could certainly be wrong, I most definitely find the lengthy posts a bit conflicted.

As I stated earlier I find both platforms excellent for their target markets. Being one who chooses to be positive, realistic, and appreciate their individual strengths, I celebrate the choices we have. While I'm well aware of each platforms shortcomings, I have no desire to use their weaknesses to prove one is superior over another.

I am but one individual user in a sea of millions, I don't expect others to have exact preferences and workflow that I do. Therefore I don't judge, but enjoy the time I spend here learning, sharing, contributing, and with some luck inspiring.

 

[AnonGuy]

How is it confusing. I already told you, Apple vs. Android may be something you enjoy punting around your headspace, but I don't care what the phone runs.

I use whatever works best for me at any point in time. Right now, and until Apple has a bigger iPhone with updated cloud storage integration accessible from a PC, that's the Note 3.

I tried a 5S and went to the Note 3 for that reason. Some fan I am! Amazing Brand Loyalty!

My avatar is one of Samsung promo pictures for the Note 3. My info clearly lists my device as a VZW Galaxy Note 3. I don't care what's going on in China, really. I'm not there and never will be there. That's just useless filibustering. I just found it odd someone went out of their way to post that picture, which is thoroughly unimpressive, in some attempt to prove Samsung is outdoing Apple in China when the numbers clearly show that to be quite misleading. In the USA, where I am, almost half of smartphone subscribers use iOS and 99% of them have iMessage enabled on their devices.

My post would have had 15 Likes and 10 Thanks if I said "I'm moving from iOS to Android because <list any dumb reason>!" Lol. There are posts like that all the time on these forums, as well as equivalent posts on other OS-centric forums that are equivalent and get equally hypocritical feedback from the posters on that forum. You guys don't have to try so hard. I'm not new to this.

Emotionally Invested in Apple? ... Do yourself a favor and drop the armchair Psychology.

Instead of trying to psychoanalyze my [clear and given] reasons for leaving the platform, you people should be getting Google to improve their services, like Hangouts, which are outclassed by competing services. And don't expect me to install MOAR APPS to make up for deficiencies in the platform's core services package compared to Apple's.

You're confused because you're used to seeing Fanboys who think just cause they use a device/platform they must tout it and speak of it as if it's borderline infalliable. I'm not that type of user, and really I didn't say much about Android as a platform, I was speaking to specific services - services which aren't available on Android. And as a "solution" another poster suggested I keep myself cut out of the iMessage loop by installing apps which are also available (and in some cases, way superior in quality and capabilities) on iOS as well as Android (and Windows Phone/Blackberry).

Sorry to disappoint, and confuse, you - but there is no logic in that counter point. You want AppZ, but why not use Platform 1 which has AppX and AppY (which are available, and better, on Platform 2 as well), but lacks AppZ instead... for its "benefits." Say, what?

P.S. If you think my posts are too long, ignore me and don't waste your time. They're long because I like to be thorough, that way you don't have to guess or make any assumptions - like me being a shill for Apple while posting from a Samsung phone.

 

[AnonGuy]

This is not about iOS vs Android, this is about Apple iPhone vs Samsung Galaxy. It's almost like McDonald's vs Burger King or Pepsi vs Coke IMO....other mobile phones, hamburgers and sodas are available.

There is only one manufacturer of iOS devices. You can't save money with a commodity variant.

The only iOS flagship in the world is the iPhone 5S.

Almost any Android Flagship can replace a Samsung Galaxy. HTC One, LG G2/3, Sony Xperias, Motorola Droids and X, etc.

 

[jhawkkw]

If anyone can tell me of a 10" tablet that can actually update the OS with LTS and be fairly inexpensive then I would stay with Android.

Somehow a debate about Samsung vs Apple and accusations about loyalties of members for certain manufacturers don't seem to fit in the scope of answering the OP's request. This thread has derailed to the point of falling off a cliff, so let's see if we can get back on track.

 

[mikedt]

Somehow a debate about Samsung vs Apple and accusations about loyalties of members for certain manufacturers don't seem to fit in the scope of answering the OP's request. This thread has derailed to the point of falling off a cliff, so let's see if we can get back on track.

I agree with this.


BTW of my experience and opinion is what goes on here in China, rather than the US, or elsewhere.

So subject closed for me.

 

[Hadron]

And don't expect me to install MOAR APPS to make up for deficiencies in the platform's core services package compared to Apple's.

This is the thing I don't understand (and see quite often). Maybe because I never expect the manufacturer's apps to be best for me on any platform (mobile or desktop) I don't have any expectation that I shouldn't install alternatives. What matters to me is that I can do what I want, not what comes with the device.

Being in the UK, where iOS is 1/3 of the smartphone base, my observation is that iMessage is less of a factor. iPhone owners use it, but they also have WhatsApp installed because it's unlikely their circles are all on one platform and so no platform-specific solution is sufficient for them. In the same way groups who I saw using Facetime a few years ago now mainly use Skype, even Apple-to-Apple, because the people they talk to are not all on iOS. So in practice people are installing additions and alternatives whatever platform they are on.

(Disclosure: I uninstall Hangouts from my devices).

 

[mikedt]

This is the thing I don't understand (and see quite often). Maybe because I never expect the manufacturer's apps to be best for me on any platform (mobile or desktop) I don't have any expectation that I shouldn't install alternatives. What matters to me is that I can do what I want, not what comes with the device.

Being in the UK, where iOS is 1/3 of the smartphone base, my observation is that iMessage is less of a factor. iPhone owners use it, but they also have WhatsApp installed because it's unlikely their circles are all on one platform and so no platform-specific solution is sufficient for them. In the same way groups who I saw using Facetime a few years ago now mainly use Skype, even Apple-to-Apple, because the people they talk to are not all on iOS. So in practice people are installing additions and alternatives whatever platform they are on.

(Disclosure: I uninstall Hangouts from my devices).

I know plenty of people with iPhones and iPads, many of them are my more affluent students, and non of them are using Facetime or iMessage, we all communicate by WeChat mostly, along with QQ. These are platform independent, available for iOS, Android, Win Phone, Blackberry, Symbian, along with Windows, OS X and Linux.

BTW Hadron, non of my friends and family in UK have iPhones. My father and sister have low cost Huawei phones with pre-paid SIMs, not contract, I got them both using Chinese WeChat...LOL. I know if you want an iPhone cheap in the UK, you have to take out a stiff two year contract. The basic 8GB iPhone 5C is

 

[AnonGuy]

There is no dominant messaging solution in the US like in China. Almost everyone there uses WeChat. The closest thing we have to that here is Facebook Messenger and I'm not bloating up my friends list just to Chat to some people, and I ultimately want to phase that account out.

I don't use many third party services because I want as few accounts to juggle as possible and I like to keep email solicitations to a minimum. I delete accounts I don't use and avoid services that don't allow account deletion. Some of those messaging apps are too feature bloated and the UIs are sketchy in a lot of cases.

If 80% of the USA used Hangouts, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the choice of service would be obvious.

I don't care about cost. I paid $742 after taxes for my Note 3. A 32 GB iPhone 5S isn't much worse than that.

I don't buy mid-ranged devices.