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Crazy environmental extremists have destroyed California's agriculture industry

F

FreakyLocz14

Banned
The Central Valley of California is often referred to the "Congress-created Dust Bowl" by locals because extreme environmental policies from the left-wing have cut-off water to the area. Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) and her colleagues have water cut-off because a 3-inch fish would sometimes get caught in the water pipes.

While Sarah Palin isn't my favorite member of my party, I like what she said about it. "
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
The Central Valley of California is often referred to the "Congress-created Dust Bowl" by locals because extreme environmental policies from the left-wing have cut-off water to the area. Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) and her colleagues have water cut-off because a 3-inch fish would sometimes get caught in the water pipes.
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Wow if that is not intentional misinterpretation I don't know what is. The water reduction was not caused by congress or by any senator. It was instituted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which is neither crazy or an environmental extremist organization, but is a non partisan independent federal government agency.

I'm not saying that I agree with their decisions (which BTW has stood despite several court challenges), but if name-calling and assigning of blame is going to be posted, at least assign it to the correct party.

It might be worth reviewing some of the documentation posted on the subject by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to see what their justification for their current stance and further plans are for this particular issue:

Species Profile for Delta smelt (Hypomesus transpacificus)

I agree that the action seems excessive and have to wonder whether a better solution might not have been viable. I have to imagine that some kind of engineering solution is possible. I would be interested in reading the actual report from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service explaining why they have taken the decision they have.
 
Isthmus said:
Wow if that is not intentional misinterpretation I don't know what is. The water reduction was not caused by congress or by any senator. It was instituted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which is neither crazy or an environmental extremist organization, but is a non partisan independent federal government agency.

I'm not saying that I agree with their decisions (which BTW has stood despite several court challenges), but if name-calling and assigning of blame is going to be posted, at least assign it to the correct party.

It might be worth reviewing some of the documentation posted on the subject by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to see what their justification for their current stance and further plans are for this particular issue:

Species Profile for Delta smelt (Hypomesus transpacificus)

I agree that the action seems excessive and have to wonder whether a better solution might not have been viable. I have to imagine that some kind of engineering solution is possible. I would be interested in reading the actual report from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service explaining why they have taken the decision they have.
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California is the prime example of over regulation gone wrong. Have a gander here: EPA Regulations Cause Drought in California - WSJ.com

Here are some unemployment figures:
NC Media Watch: California?s Central Valley is the epicenter for unemployment
http://www.dailyyonder.com/unemployment-continues-rising-central-california/20
Out of Water and Work in California's Central Valley | Survive Unemployment!

Some of those are old, but here is an article, with video, from 2011 showing the impact of these policies on California's Central Valley:
Video: Federal policies failing the Central Valley Hot Air

Also, this is straight from Bab's own site:
"Boxer Supports Efforts to Move Forward on Kern County Clean Energy Projects ... Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta to control the movement of delta smelt."
http://boxer.senate.gov/en/issues-legislation/water.cfm
 
Again you haven't contradicted anything I've said, but have yet again taken something out of context in order to make a point that isn't there. the quote from Senator Boxter's site actually reads as follows:

"Two Gates and Intertie
 
Isthmus said:
Again you haven't contradicted anything I've said, but have yet again taken something out of context in order to make a point that isn't there. the quote from Senator Boxter's site actually reads as follows:

"Two Gates and Intertie – Senator Boxer has supported infrastructure projects such as the Intertie between the Delta-Mendota Canal and the California Aqueduct, and “Two Gates,” the construction of two temporary gates in Old River and Connection Slough in the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta to control the movement of delta smelt. These are some of the most important short-term projects available to help provide more reliable water supplies to agricultural communities in the San Joaquin Valley. In November 2009, Secretary Salazar announced that the Bureau of Reclamation was committed to funding and moving forward expeditiously with both projects."

It sounds to me that what she is backing is a method for providing an alternate path of travel for the smelt so that water resources can be better allocated to the central valley.

That said, the project is still not run by her or by congress as you accuse in your initial post, let alone by extremest environmentalists. By any chance can you provide a copy of the fish and wildlife service's final order regarding their water diversion project? I would assum it would make mention of their reasoning. that could then be a point of analysis and discussion.
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Senator Boxer and Senator Feinstein (bot of California's Senators) killed a bill that would provide crucial relief for California farms. This bill was sponsored by Congressman Devin Nunes of California's 21st Congressional district and Senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina.

Congressman Nunes represents a rural Central Valley district, so he knows firsthand what kind of solutions we need. While he and our two Senators are of different parties, it's high time they put their leftist views aside to deal with a serious crisis.

YouTube - ‪Senators Feinstein and Boxer kill California water amendment‬‏
YouTube - ‪Feinstein compares water amendment to Pearl Harbor‬‏
 
so lets see, you are ignoring or not addressing every single point raised in the video posted? is it possible that there might be something to the senator's vote against the bill based on any of the topics raised?

Also if we are going to argue the bill, please do us the favor of posting a copy of it so we can all know exactly what it says and be able to understand what it was trying to accomplish. I suspect that it's scope was probably broader than the redirection of existing water supplies.
 
Isthmus said:
so lets see, you are ignoring or not addressing every single point raised in the video posted? is it possible that there might be something to the senator's vote against the bill based on any of the topics raised?

Also if we are going to argue the bill, please do us the favor of posting a copy of it so we can all know exactly what it says and be able to understand what it was trying to accomplish. I suspect that it's scope was probably broader than the redirection of existing water supplies.
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Bill Summary and Status

Bill text verisons
Water Amendment in question

There ya go. Also, please check out this video:
YouTube - ‪Turn on the Pumps? Democrats say NO!‬‏
 
For a period of time the governments in Imperial and San Diego counties were attempting to do an end-run around the Federal Government (and circumvent an agreement made with the states of Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado) by trying to negotiate a "Binational Aqueduct" between the lower Colorado river and San Diego on the Mexican side of the border.

DWR - Southern District - Binational Aqueduct
http://sandiegohealth.org/water/sdcwaterauthority/factsheet/colorado-faq.pdf

I don't believe much has happened with this due to the cost. What I find upsetting about this is that the Colorado River level is already down to the level of a stream by the time it reaches the Mexican border. I simply cannot imagine they they could possible get enough water to make the project profitable. Oh and as a by-product of the lower Colorado rivers current levels, the salinity of the water in the upper Sea of Cortez is increasing to the point where fish cannot easily live there.
 
I've seen predictions that water will be our next critical shortage. There was a big stink in the past about the Colorado River water being saved to water people's lawns in CA.

I would say that any farmer or farm combine would have to monitor and work with fair usage. The said agriculture community might not agree, but if they conserve and store the water now, they might have enough in a lean year.
Force xeriscaping for homeowners. Our average rainfall on the Front Range is 12-14 inches per year. Bluegrass is pretty, but it's a water hog. I feel that in some cases, CO is being stupid about water. We had HOAs mandating water hogging landscaping.
We are still in a drought situation. Water restrictions are on in some districts again.

One town I lived in shut off all water if the reservoir got low. With no warning. You had to go down to the creek and haul cans full of water to flush the toilet. This was before bottled water was common, so you saved milk cartons and begged drinking water from someone in another town, or who had a well.

The Colorado River does start here. If we have no snowpack, those down the line get no water. We can't give what we don't have. While snowpack was good this year, the amounts of above average snowpack seem to be going down.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
Those are very expense. I'm not sure we can afford to develop those given our current fiscal crisis.
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They could if the government would stop spending money on frivilous things and invest that money into the development of better water desalinization technology...
 
gregs887 said:
Desalinization plants. California's water problem solved.
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Also referred to as literally turning fossil fuels (mainly oil) into drinking water. It is not only very expensive, but also increases the salinity of the ocean dramatically in the vicinity of the plant. IIRC the persian gulf states has been relying heavily on this for their unsustainable growth and the gulf itself (as a whole) is already experiencing measurable increases in salinity levels.

Unless you are willing to use Nuclear power or find a way to power it with solar, right now there is no technology available that makes this a viable and affordable option in a large scale.

a better option is water recycling plants which can be made to clean and reuse existing water supplies. Though those would still require fuel for operation. IIRC Las vegas already recycles most of their waste water. they just don't use it for drinking.

Water saving technologies would also reduce our reliance on wasteful practices considerable. for example, underground drip irrigation systems can drastically reduce a farm's water usage, evaporation rates, soile erosion and soil salination. They are expensive to install and require extensive maintenance though.
 
Isthmus said:
Also referred to as literally turning fossil fuels (mainly oil) into drinking water. It is not only very expensive, but also increases the salinity of the ocean dramatically in the vicinity of the plant. IIRC the persian gulf states has been relying heavily on this for their unsustainable growth and the gulf itself (as a whole) is already experiencing measurable increases in salinity levels.

Unless you are willing to use Nuclear power or find a way to power it with solar, right now there is no technology available that makes this a viable and affordable option in a large scale.

a better option is water recycling plants which can be made to clean and reuse existing water supplies. Though those would still require fuel for operation. IIRC Las vegas already recycles most of their waste water. they just don't use it for drinking.

Water saving technologies would also reduce our reliance on wasteful practices considerable. for example, underground drip irrigation systems can drastically reduce a farm's water usage, evaporation rates, soile erosion and soil salination. They are expensive to install and require extensive maintenance though.
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There is a nuclear power plant on the beach in San Onofre, I see no reason why a desalinization plant could not be hooked up. As far as increasing the salinity of nearby bodies of water, could the salt not be taken out and sold? I know sea salt is very tasty and that would solve the issue of dumping it back into the ocean.
 
gregs887 said:
There is a nuclear power plant on the beach in San Onofre, I see no reason why a desalinization plant could not be hooked up. As far as increasing the salinity of nearby bodies of water, could the salt not be taken out and sold? I know sea salt is very tasty and that would solve the issue of dumping it back into the ocean.
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You'd be producing far more salt in this manner than you could ever sell. To give you an example, there is about 5/8 cup of salt in every gallon of natural sea water. Also, generally during desalination you don't have a pure water and then a solid salt product. You get X amount of pure water, and then x amount of super saline waste water.
 
Perhaps we need a test bed. Run a PVT to see just what happens when a state decides to be free and easy and open and crazy. Let California teach us just what can (will) happen when we allow things ike what this thread is about, to happen.
 
lordofthereef said:
You'd be producing far more salt in this manner than you could ever sell. To give you an example, there is about 5/8 cup of salt in every gallon of natural sea water. Also, generally during desalination you don't have a pure water and then a solid salt product. You get X amount of pure water, and then x amount of super saline waste water.
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I didn't realize the salinity was so high, just tossing ideas out there :p
 
lordofthereef said:
You'd be producing far more salt in this manner than you could ever sell. To give you an example, there is about 5/8 cup of salt in every gallon of natural sea water. Also, generally during desalination you don't have a pure water and then a solid salt product. You get X amount of pure water, and then x amount of super saline waste water.
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Are you sure?

Apparently, one litre by volume of seawater has (about) 1.2 oz of dissolved salt. Seems less than your 5/8 cups per gallon.

Desalination is a good idea. Not sure what they would do with the salt, but the salts contained in seawater are not purely sodium chloride, but other valueable minerals.

I recall a book by Arthur C. Clark where he provided this interesting fact: in one cubic mile of seawater, you can find decades worth of valueable minerals that (at the time of writing) would supply the country for 100 years or so.

I am not a seawater expert, so I do not really know.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Are you sure?

Apparently, one litre by volume of seawater has (about) 1.2 oz of dissolved salt. Seems less than your 5/8 cups per gallon.
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This includes dissolved calcium, and other trace elements. My numbers are indeed accurate. Ask anyone that keep s a saltwater tank and does their own salt mix.

EDIT:
Sea Salt = approx. 230.4 g per cup
Natural sea water = 35-40 grams salt per liter (this is variable depending on area - CA would be ~35)
1 gallon = approx 4 liters
so one gallon natural sea water has about 140g of salt which is just under 5/8 (and as mentioned the rest of the trace elements make up for that to total 5/8

At the end of the day, unless you are vapor distilling (which is slow), this would be a really expensive process. And then you actually have to do something with the "waste" product.
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