JnEricsonx
Android Enthusiast
We're out of time, time for a big move or we're all screwed?
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So, should Obama just unload the 14th Amend?
- Thread starter JnEricsonx
- Start date
noah way
Android Enthusiast
Regardless of whether or not we are out of time, we are screwed, and we have been for some time.
Debt is not the problem. After WWII the ratio of debt to GDP was 120%. In the following 30 years, despite high tax rates (actually because of them) the US had high employment, increasing standard of living AND we reduced the debt to just 30% of GDP. We also built a national infrastructure (among others things).
Spending is not the problem either. The problem is what we spend on. Interminable wars for corporate profit, corporate welfare (subsidies to highly profitable corporations), tax breaks for people who don't need them, an utterly corrupt corporate political system, etc.
Neither of these will be "fixed" by raising the debt ceiling. The same underlying problems will remain, and things will get even worse as the status quo is perpetuated (corporate domination of the political process, no jobs, no tax collection, TARP money invested tax-free overseas, etc.).
Neither will be "fixed" by spending cuts which will essentially completely derail an already crumbled economy.
Traditionally, recession / depression is reversed with domestic spending that creates jobs, which in turn create more business, more jobs and more tax revenue. Tax revenue is down because unemployment is high, less people paying taxes. Additionally, tax breaks for the rich and corporate tax loopholes have dramatically reduced tax revenue, further adding to the deficit. Spending cuts are the worst thing to do in a downturn.
All of these things can be fixed, but they won't be for one simple reason: greed. Welcome to the human condition.
I'm almost hoping that the debt ceiling won't get lifted, not because I think that it will help the economy, but rather because I think it will destroy it. Sadly, that is the only way we will see real change in this country. Whatever bill passes - and congress will pass something (and BO will sign it) because they don't want to be held responsible for the consequences if they don't - will not address these issues. Corporate malfeasance, war, tax breaks and loopholes, all will remain in place.
Business as usual. Just a bit more theatrical this time, which only makes it even more clear what a farce our entire system is.
Debt is not the problem. After WWII the ratio of debt to GDP was 120%. In the following 30 years, despite high tax rates (actually because of them) the US had high employment, increasing standard of living AND we reduced the debt to just 30% of GDP. We also built a national infrastructure (among others things).
Spending is not the problem either. The problem is what we spend on. Interminable wars for corporate profit, corporate welfare (subsidies to highly profitable corporations), tax breaks for people who don't need them, an utterly corrupt corporate political system, etc.
Neither of these will be "fixed" by raising the debt ceiling. The same underlying problems will remain, and things will get even worse as the status quo is perpetuated (corporate domination of the political process, no jobs, no tax collection, TARP money invested tax-free overseas, etc.).
Neither will be "fixed" by spending cuts which will essentially completely derail an already crumbled economy.
Traditionally, recession / depression is reversed with domestic spending that creates jobs, which in turn create more business, more jobs and more tax revenue. Tax revenue is down because unemployment is high, less people paying taxes. Additionally, tax breaks for the rich and corporate tax loopholes have dramatically reduced tax revenue, further adding to the deficit. Spending cuts are the worst thing to do in a downturn.
All of these things can be fixed, but they won't be for one simple reason: greed. Welcome to the human condition.
I'm almost hoping that the debt ceiling won't get lifted, not because I think that it will help the economy, but rather because I think it will destroy it. Sadly, that is the only way we will see real change in this country. Whatever bill passes - and congress will pass something (and BO will sign it) because they don't want to be held responsible for the consequences if they don't - will not address these issues. Corporate malfeasance, war, tax breaks and loopholes, all will remain in place.
Business as usual. Just a bit more theatrical this time, which only makes it even more clear what a farce our entire system is.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
You do know the president does not have the power to change the Constitution, right?
EDIT: What do you mean specifically, when you say, "Unload?"
"envoke"?
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
I'm confused as well. The section you're referring to is section 4 I assume,
I'm not sure what you think Obama could do with that. Very confused. You're saying he would claim that he needs the money to put down a rebellion? Maybe it's just too early in the morning for me and I'm missing it.
I'm not sure what you think Obama could do with that. Very confused. You're saying he would claim that he needs the money to put down a rebellion? Maybe it's just too early in the morning for me and I'm missing it.
You are missing it.
The rebellion and insurrection is an additional clause to the statement and not the object of the statement. For example, removing the additional cause out of the statement;
But we also have a qualifier statement in there, "authorized by law". Which is required to make it a legally binding agreement.
If you look at the original sentence and highlight the additional cause object you will see the problem.
Not, "excluding" or "only" debts but "including" debts. Which means all legally "authorized debts". Yes, the power bill and the paychecks count as a debt. A debt means any money that is borrowed to pay for spending. The spending was agreed to by congress months ago, the amount of money needed to borrow to pay that spending, is called debt. The 14th amendment say the validity of the public debt of the united states shall not be questioned.
To the op, it would cost obama dearly in the next election if he had to go over congress head to get the debt ceiling raised. But it would not be impeachable as some people stated. Obama would have to refer the matter to supreme court to ask them to invalidate the debt ceiling law as unconstitutional under the 14th amendment part 4. If the supreme court came back and said it was unconstitutional, which it is, the law would simply be revoked and the treasury would have to pay the debt, zero input from obama after the ruling.
Zero impeachment, because the law was found unconstitutional by the supreme court, you can't impeach a president for enforcing the constitution. If the supreme court payed party lines or invalidated part 4 for some reason, then the president can not go around the debt limit. If, at the point, he told the treasury to increase the debt load, he would be impeached. If he told the treasury to increase the debt load by with out a ruling from the supreme court, he would be impeached, but it would hang on the out come of the 14th amendment and the validity of the debt ceiling bill.
As for the screwed commit. Yes we are. We need to cut 4 trillion dollars in the next 10 years and increase revenue by 6 trillion in the next 4 years. None of that is currently on the table. By not increasing revenue and decreasing spending, we are not going to make the credit agencies happy, which means a degrade in credit rating and everyone will suffer for that.