Mike Anthony
Member
wow...i've had no issues with imusic yet. hope it dosnt happen to me. wont be a huge loss, all my music is still on my computer. we'll see!
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Android and Viruses....
- Thread starter dragonriot
- Start date
dragonriot
Newbie
Addressing alostpacket:
I addressed malware as a separate issue, and Malware is even less likely to work on a Linux box because it still requires user permission to install. Websites that cause a million and a half popups on a windows machine, due to malware on the website itself, cause exactly zero popups for the same website on an Ubuntu or Slackware system. I know this because instead of fixing my friends' Vista machines and their virus/malware problems, I just install Ubuntu on their system, and send them on their way.... If they really want Windows, they get Windows 7 now, because Vista just sucks.
At this point, my IT Guru friend would come in here and call me a fanboi, which is a supreme insult, because I do actually believe in Open Source, Linux, the GNU, and Google. In fact, when I was telling him how absolutely awesome the Droid was, and told him that it would soon eclipse both Blackberry and iPhone for active accounts, he did actually call me a fanboi, and said Android would fall within a couple years. I never said anything about perfection, though I do believe the security of Linux/Android to be untouchable by any other OS.
Not at all... just confident.
They did indeed use older libraries, and those problems were fixed quickly. The reason Verizon left the Droid untouched and didn't completely bork the OS by installing all their crap on it, is because everyone is a Dev when it comes to Linux. As soon as we root all these phones, we start trying to find holes... we send in crash data, problems with the OS, and most of the time, fixes to the problems to the developers, or what's more likely to happen is that we start building custom ROMS for our phones, and don't accept OTA updates from Android anymore, because we have customized our phones for our specific needs.
Indeed... thanks for agreeing with me on that.
Its not silly, and I didn't say NEVER... I said not right now, and not with the current set of Antivirus software available. One day, someone WILL write an Android virus, and it will not be detected by the virus scanners. The fix will come from the community, from people who have recovery ROMS and full backups of their phones. It will be submitted to Android, they will pass the OTA fix, and all things will be good again.
Linux has user groups, similar to Windows. You can have an "administrator account" which in Linux is called "root". This root account has ultimate power over your device or computer. It can change things without asking permission, delete everything on your phone, and install anything it wants. For the root account to function, however... you have to "sudo" into your phone. The reason for this, is everyone is inherently logged in as a "user". You have a specific set of permissions, and to approve changes, delete files, and install software, you need to sign, put in a password, or click a selection of buttons confirming that you actually want to do that, so you don't break anything. Root is assumed to be knowledgeable in the OS, so these safety measures are taken away. So be careful when installing any software that "requires root access" unless you know exactly what it does.
Heuristic is an adjective for experience-based techniques that help in problem solving, learning and discovery. A heuristic method is particularly used to rapidly come to a solution that is hoped to be close to the best possible answer, or 'optimal solution'. Heuristics are "rules of thumb", educated guesses, intuitive judgments or simply common sense. A heuristic is a general way of solving a problem. In more precise terms, heuristics stand for strategies using readily accessible, though loosely applicable, information to control problem solving in human beings and machines.
Because there are so few instances of viruses and virus behavior in Linux systems, there is no Heuristic data available for the problem solving necessary to write a virus scanner for Android. In fact, the only reason to install a virus scanner on ANY Linux PC or linux based phone right now, is to protect and scan Windows machines in your network. Sadly, this is a fact. However, installing a firewall is a smart move, and if you can find a good one, it will protect any unauthorized access to your phone or linux computer. This is especially useful if you use WiFi more than 3g, say in your house, or more likely, in a coffee shop or other wifi hotspot.
I'm sorry too... let's agree to disagree on certain things, and just help people instead of arguing about crap for the rest of the stuff. =)
I addressed malware as a separate issue, and Malware is even less likely to work on a Linux box because it still requires user permission to install. Websites that cause a million and a half popups on a windows machine, due to malware on the website itself, cause exactly zero popups for the same website on an Ubuntu or Slackware system. I know this because instead of fixing my friends' Vista machines and their virus/malware problems, I just install Ubuntu on their system, and send them on their way.... If they really want Windows, they get Windows 7 now, because Vista just sucks.
At this point, my IT Guru friend would come in here and call me a fanboi, which is a supreme insult, because I do actually believe in Open Source, Linux, the GNU, and Google. In fact, when I was telling him how absolutely awesome the Droid was, and told him that it would soon eclipse both Blackberry and iPhone for active accounts, he did actually call me a fanboi, and said Android would fall within a couple years. I never said anything about perfection, though I do believe the security of Linux/Android to be untouchable by any other OS.
Not at all... just confident.
They did indeed use older libraries, and those problems were fixed quickly. The reason Verizon left the Droid untouched and didn't completely bork the OS by installing all their crap on it, is because everyone is a Dev when it comes to Linux. As soon as we root all these phones, we start trying to find holes... we send in crash data, problems with the OS, and most of the time, fixes to the problems to the developers, or what's more likely to happen is that we start building custom ROMS for our phones, and don't accept OTA updates from Android anymore, because we have customized our phones for our specific needs.
Indeed... thanks for agreeing with me on that.
Its not silly, and I didn't say NEVER... I said not right now, and not with the current set of Antivirus software available. One day, someone WILL write an Android virus, and it will not be detected by the virus scanners. The fix will come from the community, from people who have recovery ROMS and full backups of their phones. It will be submitted to Android, they will pass the OTA fix, and all things will be good again.
Linux has user groups, similar to Windows. You can have an "administrator account" which in Linux is called "root". This root account has ultimate power over your device or computer. It can change things without asking permission, delete everything on your phone, and install anything it wants. For the root account to function, however... you have to "sudo" into your phone. The reason for this, is everyone is inherently logged in as a "user". You have a specific set of permissions, and to approve changes, delete files, and install software, you need to sign, put in a password, or click a selection of buttons confirming that you actually want to do that, so you don't break anything. Root is assumed to be knowledgeable in the OS, so these safety measures are taken away. So be careful when installing any software that "requires root access" unless you know exactly what it does.
Heuristic is an adjective for experience-based techniques that help in problem solving, learning and discovery. A heuristic method is particularly used to rapidly come to a solution that is hoped to be close to the best possible answer, or 'optimal solution'. Heuristics are "rules of thumb", educated guesses, intuitive judgments or simply common sense. A heuristic is a general way of solving a problem. In more precise terms, heuristics stand for strategies using readily accessible, though loosely applicable, information to control problem solving in human beings and machines.
Because there are so few instances of viruses and virus behavior in Linux systems, there is no Heuristic data available for the problem solving necessary to write a virus scanner for Android. In fact, the only reason to install a virus scanner on ANY Linux PC or linux based phone right now, is to protect and scan Windows machines in your network. Sadly, this is a fact. However, installing a firewall is a smart move, and if you can find a good one, it will protect any unauthorized access to your phone or linux computer. This is especially useful if you use WiFi more than 3g, say in your house, or more likely, in a coffee shop or other wifi hotspot.
I'm sorry too... let's agree to disagree on certain things, and just help people instead of arguing about crap for the rest of the stuff. =)
silverhawk
Lurker
Plagiarize much?
Virus scanners, no matter what OS they run on, rely for the most part on virus definitions. They use a database of virus "fingerprints" or unique bits of code present in the virus/malware to identify it. Heuristics are used by virus scanners to help identify previously unknown viruses, viruses which do not have a definition developed yet or variants of existing viruses. Basically the AV program monitors running processes for virus/malware like behavior and if it triggers enough alarms (for lack of a better term) in the AV program, the AV program makes the assumption that the process could be a possible virus/malware and alerts the user. The vast majority of virus alerts are triggered via definition matching and not due to heuristics.
Silverhawk
dragonriot
Newbie
Oh crap... my bad... the definition of Heuristic was taken from Wikipedia... I forgot to give credit where credit was due.
On that note, the vast majority of virus alerts are triggered via definition matching and not due to heuristics, while true just can't apply to Android, because there are no definitions for viruses in Android. The reason that more hits are from definitions, is because everyone and their mother can write a virus scanner with a definition file to scan through. Very few virus scanning companies use heuristics, which is silly to me, since they are so much better than definition-based scanners.
I could seriously not update NOD32 for a year, stick it on a computer with known viruses that were created 6 months after the last update, and it would find more viruses than Kaspersky, Norton, and AVG combined, all of which could be current and fully updated. The only negative to this, is sometimes, you install something purposely, say for instance a CD crack to a piece of software, that you know is safe (and you have the CD but don't want to use it all the time)... Heuristics will detect the changes made to your program - and the fact that it no longer needs a CD to run - as a virus on occasion.
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
@dragonriot
Appreciate your latest post, it was well reasoned, respectful, and informative. Kudos. I think you might be leaving out a bit about how important permissions are but otherwise your advice is sound.
I think it's important to remind users that when the phone warns them they are giving access to say, their contacts, and full internet access, that application could full well steal info about your contacts. While this is unlikely, it's important to be diligent and rely on the community as well as be a part of the community.
Users should be encouraged to rate apps and leave helpful comments as well as report spam to the Market moderators.
Anyways, I'm glad this thread is turning out for the better
Had nothing against you personally, just got a bad vibe from your original tone. I'm glad to see I was mistaken.
Appreciate your latest post, it was well reasoned, respectful, and informative. Kudos. I think you might be leaving out a bit about how important permissions are but otherwise your advice is sound.
I think it's important to remind users that when the phone warns them they are giving access to say, their contacts, and full internet access, that application could full well steal info about your contacts. While this is unlikely, it's important to be diligent and rely on the community as well as be a part of the community.
Users should be encouraged to rate apps and leave helpful comments as well as report spam to the Market moderators.
Anyways, I'm glad this thread is turning out for the better
Had nothing against you personally, just got a bad vibe from your original tone. I'm glad to see I was mistaken.
dragonriot
Newbie
@alostpacket
looks like you've done a good job of warning them. =)
I think our work is done here... lol
looks like you've done a good job of warning them. =)
I think our work is done here... lol
silverhawk
Lurker
I would disagree, most all major anti virus software use heuristics as part of their scanning repertoire. Definitions alone cannot do the job nor can heuristics that's why they use both.
I will agree with your observations about NOD32 though; It's the best scanner on the market, which 95% of the users out there have never heard of and that's a shame. In the interest of full disclosure, I have used it for around 7 years and actually was a re-seller for Eset a few years ago.
Silverhawk
dragonriot
Newbie
NICE.
Good to know I'm not alone here in my love for NOD32. I suppose I did misspeak a little... when I said that software like AVG, Norton, and Kaspersky don't use Heuristics.... I should have said they don't do it well, and they wouldn't work at all without having BOTH definitions and heuristics, while NOD32 can function just fine with JUST heuristics for the most part, because it's just that damn good. 
Forgive me because I am new at this forum but I have experience with android getting infected with a conficker type virus, which is supposed to be only for windows. I did a port scan on an ip that kept pinging my home computer. After I did the port scan, my phones browser stopped working. I had to download a secure proxy server based browser to surf the web. Anti virus said there was an application installed not listed. In the system app, I could no longer see the inactive (cached)processes and was connected to an ip not registered in the whois database, but not spoofed by a botnet. Flash memory seems to be a good vessel to run hidden programs from. Please tell me what you think please as I am learning too. Please don't tell me its not possible because I have seen it with my own eyes!!
The point of virus checkers on any Unix based system is you don't want to be seen as the one passing on viruses. For example, someone sends you an email inadvertently including a virus. You want to pass this onto clients or coworkers but avoid passing on the virus. Without protection and scanners you pass them on to all your Windoze pals and you become the new culprit.
I'm a Mac user but ever mindful that, although Apple keep on top of the security as best they can (much better than MS), it's not a good idea to remain complacent to the idea that viruses don't affect me. They do, indirectly. The virus checkers I have installed don't have the definitions for many OSX viruses but have 15000 for Windows. Virus protection is everyones responsibility and should really be built into every operating system as standard by now.
But no virus checker for Android helps against the real threat of Malware and purpose written viruses available right from the Android app store. Rogue app are littering it and there is little protection given by Google. The most vulnerable are the non-tech-savvy users. Apple got it right by vetting everything that goes on their store. Google should definitely follow suit to protect their users.
Pi
RemkoPluijm
Lurker
It seems that some of the big anti-virus companies aren't that confident in Android's opensource / Linux security:
Big rise in Android malware anticipated - 24 May 2011 - Computing News
Big rise in Android malware anticipated - 24 May 2011 - Computing News
A
Archphoto
Guest
I installed AV simply to protect my phone from any *possible* infection from any source. I know what Linux is, but admit have no idea how stable/secure/easy to hack it is - whilst some may tell me it's a waste of time, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution.
Malware can be a PITA - I've had to deal with it on PCs too many times to count - and a couple have been a huge annoyance, ie: shut down the entire system!
As an aside, should an infection permeate an Android phone (no AV installed), could it conceivably be passed onto a Windows phone (again with no AV installed)?
I have AV installed on my Mac - not to protect me, but to ensure any Windows viruses don't get passed onto friends.
Malware can be a PITA - I've had to deal with it on PCs too many times to count - and a couple have been a huge annoyance, ie: shut down the entire system!
As an aside, should an infection permeate an Android phone (no AV installed), could it conceivably be passed onto a Windows phone (again with no AV installed)?
I have AV installed on my Mac - not to protect me, but to ensure any Windows viruses don't get passed onto friends.
A
Archphoto
Guest
god ur guys are smart lol i know of linux as my brother is a nerd i didt know it OS was part of linux server or linux in genral so this actully is helpful to ppl with the virus scanner well i myself would't install one due to i think it is a stupid idea but all you guys need to remember pc/mac mobile fones being any type of thing is a buiness these ppl have made them to make money in way it seems ur a bit jelous as you didt think of it first but in long run it is users decision to install virus scanner or not if they wanna install it they can if they dont want to they dont need too but dont diss out ppl cause they wanna feel safe with there fone and the ppl who made them so wat they made them to make money
Wyattspoppa
Newbie
Call this Gospel my friends, just because it hasn't been an issue to speak of to-date, doesn't mean it never will be, believe that! I can tell you hacker stories that would keep you awake at night...here's just one: A young teen hacked the phone company that serviced the control tower at a medium-sized airport which effectively took down their service and broke contact between the tower ATC's and (sorry, Air Traffic Controllers) and the pilots in the are preparing to land! Imagine your life in the sky was put in immediate and very real danger by a 14 yr old who was playing with a hacking proggie? So how far a stretch is it to imagine people who now do financial transactions on their cells would eventually be targeted by hackers? I wouldn't bet my life on it, not when it happened at 15,000 feet by a child!
Contrary to what the OP says, Linux is not immune to viruses. However, so-called "antivirus" applications are basically useless placebos that make people "feel safer" while not actually protecting you.
There are real threats out there, but you need real security, not "antivirus," to protect you:
http://androidforums.com/android-ap...explained-security-tips-avoiding-malware.html
There are real threats out there, but you need real security, not "antivirus," to protect you:
http://androidforums.com/android-ap...explained-security-tips-avoiding-malware.html
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
Awesome, this was the thread that inspired me to write that guide and the app PocketPermissions.
Such a blast from the past.
Gotta bookmark this for nostalgic reasons
You mean until the day you installed a trojan. You didn't just get a virus. There are no viruses for Android yet.hello every one i used to think the same thing too that androids are immune to virus and malware till the day i got one i had lot of problem dealing with it
OK, here is what Trend Micro says:
"Trend Micro Mobile Security Personal Edition for Android stops threats before they reach you. By the end of 2013 there will be more than 1,000,000 malicious Android apps attempting to steal information and sign you up for expensive SMS services. This cloud-based security helps keep you safe from online threats, data theft, and the loss of your Android smartphone or tablet."
If you use them for PC antiviral program, they "give" you a version for Android at no cost. I don't know about getting a virus in software as many have suggested you won't, but I do know this program has blocked me from going to malicioius web sites on my PC. I haven't had that happen yet on the phone, but I assume it could if I browsed more on it.
I don't work for Trend Micro....it came on my Dell desktop, and I really liked it so I started using it, and the new version gave me the Android app.
"Trend Micro Mobile Security Personal Edition for Android stops threats before they reach you. By the end of 2013 there will be more than 1,000,000 malicious Android apps attempting to steal information and sign you up for expensive SMS services. This cloud-based security helps keep you safe from online threats, data theft, and the loss of your Android smartphone or tablet."
If you use them for PC antiviral program, they "give" you a version for Android at no cost. I don't know about getting a virus in software as many have suggested you won't, but I do know this program has blocked me from going to malicioius web sites on my PC. I haven't had that happen yet on the phone, but I assume it could if I browsed more on it.
I don't work for Trend Micro....it came on my Dell desktop, and I really liked it so I started using it, and the new version gave me the Android app.
I'm fully supportive of people installing whatever they want on their own devices. I just can't stand the scaremongering and paranoia foisted on others. There is no Android virus problem, and antivirus isn't going to protect you from every malware threat. There are tons of trojans documented (almost all of which have now been removed from the Google Play store, and the rest are easy to spot and will be removed soon).