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Class action by Android users over Apple forced programmer exclusivity?

It did blow all the Windows Mobile devices (phones and PDA) at the time. I am a former vb WinMo developer that have been using WinMo when it was Pegasus in 1997. Went thru all the iterations (PocketPc,PPC2002,PPC2003,WINCE, WinMo 6.5), had all the high-end winmo gadgets, all the iPaqs, all the Dell Axims,etc...

The app stores at the time were: Handango, and a Palmtree, and a few others. The whole purchase experience sucked. When you get your reg keys (based off your device ID), it was only good for one device. You had to re-contact the developer to get new keys when you changed PDA/smartphones. iPhone apps stay with you and you can install to as many iOS device as you want. The buying experience was so much more fluid.

We had Pocket Internet Explorer PIE 6.0 which was shitty. How many years did it take PIE to get SSL and basic javascript? Opera blew. Thunderbird browser was $30. Yep, I actually paid $30 for a Windows Mobile browser and it wasn't 1/10 as good as Safari.

Safari had multi-touch, pinch and zoom and the full web experience. Didn't have use wap sites or pocket edition websites. It could render about 90% of the websites out there with full CSS, Javascript. For the first time in my entire mobile/pda computing experience, i was able to do online banking on a freaking phone. You don't know how monumental that was. BofA, Citibank, Chase, none of them supported Windows Mobile. Citibank had some silly WAP website where you had to send SMS text messages to do transfers. It was silly.

I had a Dell Axim x51v loaded to the gill (about $800 in accessories) and I
thought it was the greatest thing since slice bread - VGA screen, dual memory, 600mhz cpu with a dedicated intel graphics processor, blah,blah...
The iPhone with a slower processor,lower-res screen ran circles around my Axim in just day-to-day task.

When the 1st gen iPhone came out, it made my Axim a paperweight. I already spent over $800 on my Axim and still couldn't do album art in my mp3 player. Remember, you had to make jpegs of your album art and call it folder.jpg and place them in your music folder. Iphone did it automatically.

The iPhone also came with Visual Voicemail, a threaded SMS app. Again, none of this was available on any of the high-end WinMo devices. I had to get rid of my Palm Treo and get the 1st gen iPhone.

So even at $600 at the time, the was a freaking bargain. I even had one od the first Linux sharp PDAs at that time frame. the Iphone was a very refreshing change despite its limitations (mms/copy-n-paste). I also had the first Nokia MID devices the N770. None of them had a full web browser. None of them. And that was the driving force for many people to buy an iPhone.

Then we have the email client. First to do Gmail and Yahoo mail out of the box. Pocket Outlook blows so hard even up to WinMo 6.5. NONE, i repeat NONE of them had HTML email that worked. Since Outlook didn't support CSS, you could not get HTMl formatted emails. Again, this was a big freaking deal in 2007.

So, to say it didn't bring anything to the table or outclassed its competition is just being revisionist to the history.


Skyfire had/has the full web experience. Including Flash.

WinMo had MMS and 3G support. What good is browsing on EDGE? Not much.

The Copy/Paste from WinMo is still unrivaled. Shame.

I had threaded SMS on all my WinMo devices.... Mogul/Touch Pro/Touch Pro2... and the Mogul didn't have TouchFlo.

Live messenger on WinMo is also still unrivaled. Shame. (File transfer, send voice clips, group chat)

Point is, both platforms had it's ups and downs, and winmo was just too overly complicated for most people. But functionality-wise, WinMo brought alot to the table. And the HD2 runs like a dream.
 
Skyfire had/has the full web experience. Including Flash.

WinMo had MMS and 3G support. What good is browsing on EDGE? Not much.

The Copy/Paste from WinMo is still unrivaled. Shame.

I had threaded SMS on all my WinMo devices.... Mogul/Touch Pro/Touch Pro2... and the Mogul didn't have TouchFlo.

Live messenger on WinMo is also still unrivaled. Shame. (File transfer, send voice clips, group chat)

Point is, both platforms had it's ups and downs, and winmo was just too overly complicated for most people. But functionality-wise, WinMo brought alot to the table. And the HD2 runs like a dream.

I'll grant you the copy-n-paste. I love it from WinMo. I also prefer the filesystem nature of WinMo (even over Android). Copy-n-paste worked well because you used a stylus. It couldn't do copy-n-paste images say from the Photo gallery to Pocket Outlook. It was mainly a text-only thing but it did work. It was handy for Pocket Excel (the only app I miss on WinMo).

Everything else I'm gonna disagree with. Thunderbird was laggy and it still cost $30. Flash on WinMo gave you 6fps. yes, 6FPS. I don't even know which was the last browser I used on my HTC Touch pro. I think it was Opera 9. Again, another rubbish browser. Safari's webkit (now used by Android) again, kills it. None of them, even on 3G, was worth a damn compared to a 1st gen iPhone even on EDGE. Even though it was slower, the browsing experience was so much better because of the page rendering. Also, iPhone's WIFI has always worked well for me.

At the time, the iPhone brought you the first real decent youtube client (not the 3gp limited m.youtube.com that played on 1 out of 5 WinMo device) and Google Earth.. All of which we take for granted in 2010.

Threaded SMS on WINMO didn't come UNTIL after it was done on the iPhone. I remember how it was a big deal when WinMo got it; reading all of the PocketPC blogs.
I had the Verizon version of the Mogul VX6800. And the 1st gen iPhone in every conceivable way and in any reasonable good conscious would agree with me that it was better. The only reason why I stuck with Windows Mobile at the time was I had already invested lots of money in various GPS software and bluetooth dongles. The HTC Touch Pro, again another touted iPhone Killer fell flat for me. The only reason why I even kept that device was to play TCPMP and CorePlayer.But for everything else, it was so freaking laggy. I do miss using a stylus from time to time. The only other good thing I have to say about WinMo is cooking ROMS on it.

Android, on the other hand, was smart enough to copy many of the things from the iPhone. Hence the reason why WinMo is a dead platform.

Back to my original reply. The poster, theBrit, was a bit revisionistic when he said the iPhone didn't bring anything to the table and WinMo was waaaaaaaay better. My post was meant to shed a different light. I believe he is clearly wrong. The iPhone brought a lot (and so did WinMo) but to to simply dismiss it as a only bringing a shiny UI is simply ignoring and dismissing the reasons for iPhone's successes in the marketplace. The failure and death of WinMo (as we know it, 6.5) should be enough reasons to invalidate his position.
 
I'll grant you the copy-n-paste. I love it from WinMo. I also prefer the filesystem nature of WinMo (even over Android). Copy-n-paste worked well because you used a stylus. It couldn't do copy-n-paste images say from the Photo gallery to Pocket Outlook. It was mainly a text-only thing but it did work. It was handy for Pocket Excel (the only app I miss on WinMo).

Everything else I'm gonna disagree with. Thunderbird was laggy and it still cost $30. Flash on WinMo gave you 6fps. yes, 6FPS. I don't even know which was the last browser I used on my HTC Touch pro. I think it was Opera 9. Again, another rubbish browser. Safari's webkit (now used by Android) again, kills it. None of them, even on 3G, was worth a damn compared to a 1st gen iPhone even on EDGE. Even though it was slower, the browsing experience was so much better because of the page rendering. Also, iPhone's WIFI has always worked well for me.

At the time, the iPhone brought you the first real decent youtube client (not the 3gp limited m.youtube.com that played on 1 out of 5 WinMo device) and Google Earth.. All of which we take for granted in 2010.

Threaded SMS on WINMO didn't come UNTIL after it was done on the iPhone. I remember how it was a big deal when WinMo got it; reading all of the PocketPC blogs.
I had the Verizon version of the Mogul VX6800. And the 1st gen iPhone in every conceivable way and in any reasonable good conscious would agree with me that it was better. The only reason why I stuck with Windows Mobile at the time was I had already invested lots of money in various GPS software and bluetooth dongles. The HTC Touch Pro, again another touted iPhone Killer fell flat for me. The only reason why I even kept that device was to play TCPMP and CorePlayer.But for everything else, it was so freaking laggy. I do miss using a stylus from time to time. The only other good thing I have to say about WinMo is cooking ROMS on it.

Android, on the other hand, was smart enough to copy many of the things from the iPhone. Hence the reason why WinMo is a dead platform.

Back to my original reply. The poster, theBrit, was a bit revisionistic when he said the iPhone didn't bring anything to the table and WinMo was waaaaaaaay better. My post was meant to shed a different light. I believe he is clearly wrong. The iPhone brought a lot (and so did WinMo) but to to simply dismiss it as a only bringing a shiny UI is simply ignoring and dismissing the reasons for iPhone's successes in the marketplace. The failure and death of WinMo (as we know it, 6.5) should be enough reasons to invalidate his position.

Hmm maybe your experience was hindered by VZW. VZW was known to lock down their winmo devices to some extent. How? Not sure. No personal experience there.

Did you try skyfire? That was a beast of a browser for WinMo, and ran flawlessly on my TP/TP2, My mogul it had a few hiccups do to less power/ram.

And pocket Excel was amazing, I used it extensively, and something I dearly miss.
 
Hmm maybe your experience was hindered by VZW. VZW was known to lock down their winmo devices to some extent. How? Not sure. No personal experience there.

Did you try skyfire? That was a beast of a browser for WinMo, and ran flawlessly on my TP/TP2, My mogul it had a few hiccups do to less power/ram.

And pocket Excel was amazing, I used it extensively, and something I dearly miss.

Dude, I was writing Pocket PC software at the time. I got every WinMo/Pocket Pc device I wanted. I even had the HP IPaq 211 Enterprise PDA which to this day, I consider the BEST WinMo device (outclassing every Touch pro).I also had the Cingular 8125 which was the same as the mogul. Yes, VZW did gimped on some of the WinMo phones like the Touch Pro. They had less memory compared to the other carriers.

I did use Skyfire. It was buggy as hell. I also hated TouchFlo on HTC devices. I had to disable it and use SPB mobile as my launcher. I am very knowledgeable on an Windows Mobile, Windows Handheld, Pocket PC, Windows CE (whatever name you want to call it). Like I said, I had every high-end Pocket PC device from 1997 to 2008. Velo 1, Thinkpad z50, Sharp Mobilion,all the Treos, iPaqs,HP Jornadas, Toshiba (every E-series PDA) you name it, MotoQs, Blackjacks, WM Smartphones, Windows Mobile PND (NavUnits),I probably owned it. I was working as a contractor on several embedded CE devices in early 2000 when Macromedia was promising flash back then. I worked on several Microsoft projects like webtv as a freelancer and some set-top boxes based on CE core. I've spent thousands of untold dollars on specialized WINCE apps, shareware,etc... I've had almost every single WinMo add-on invented - PC-CARD rj-45 adapters, iRDA, Bluetooth keyboards, TV-Tuners, GSM modems for my WinMo devices. I was one of those guys who spent $60-100 every year for full MS Streets to have on his phone/pda and guess what, when the iPhone came out, Pocket Streets got thrown out the window. Again, another ground breaking moment for me. Google Earth was free. $600 on the iPhone was a no-brainer considering how much I paid MS for Pocket streets through-out the years.

I am by no stretch of the imagination a marginal windows mobile user.

So when I say the 1st iPhone was groundbreaking in 2007, I say it with some experience behind my belt.

I am one of the few people who like using styluses. I'd still be using WinMo if it wasn't so laggy , had a decent browser comparable to Android Webkit/Safari, and a more robust Email client. Also, if Visual Studio was free , I'd still be writing software for it. Unfortunately, MS let it die.
 
Dude, I was writing Pocket PC software at the time. I got every WinMo/Pocket Pc device I wanted. I even had the HP IPaq 211 Enterprise PDA which to this day, I consider the BEST WinMo device (outclassing every Touch pro).I also had the Cingular 8125 which was the same as the mogul. Yes, VZW did gimped on some of the WinMo phones like the Touch Pro. They had less memory compared to the other carriers.

I did use Skyfire. It was buggy as hell. I also hated TouchFlo on HTC devices. I had to disable it and use SPB mobile as my launcher. I am very knowledgeable on an Windows Mobile, Windows Handheld, Pocket PC, Windows CE (whatever name you want to call it). Like I said, I had every high-end Pocket PC device from 1997 to 2008. Velo 1, Thinkpad z50, Sharp Mobilion,all the Treos, iPaqs,HP Jornadas, Toshiba (every E-series PDA) you name it, MotoQs, Blackjacks, WM Smartphones, Windows Mobile PND (NavUnits),I probably owned it. I was working as a contractor on several embedded CE devices in early 2000 when Macromedia was promising flash back then. I worked on several Microsoft projects like webtv as a freelancer and some set-top boxes based on CE core. I've spent thousands of untold dollars on specialized WINCE apps, shareware,etc... I've had almost every single WinMo add-on invented - PC-CARD rj-45 adapters, iRDA, Bluetooth keyboards, TV-Tuners, GSM modems for my WinMo devices. I was one of those guys who spent $60-100 every year for full MS Streets to have on his phone/pda and guess what, when the iPhone came out, Pocket Streets got thrown out the window. Again, another ground breaking moment for me. Google Earth was free. $600 on the iPhone was a no-brainer considering how much I paid MS for Pocket streets through-out the years.

I am by no stretch of the imagination a marginal windows mobile user.

So when I say the 1st iPhone was groundbreaking in 2007, I say it with some experience behind my belt.

I am one of the few people who like using styluses. I'd still be using WinMo if it wasn't so laggy , had a decent browser comparable to Android Webkit/Safari, and a more robust Email client. Also, if Visual Studio was free , I'd still be writing software for it. Unfortunately, MS let it die.

crap hardware isn't WinMo's fault though... like I said the HD2 runs like a dream, but it was too little too late.
 
crap hardware isn't WinMo's fault though... like I said the HD2 runs like a dream, but it was too little too late.

So, WinMo had 13 years of crap hardware? I agreed it was a little too late.

But explain to me how a 412 mhz Samsung risc cpu on the 1st gen iPhone scrolled smoother than various 612mhz Windows Mobile devices circa 2007?

How a HVGA 480x320 "pure marketing" device rendered better web pages compared to high end WinMo devices that that sported 640x480 VGA screens even with VGA/cleartype hacks on them?

Clearly the iPhone had lower spec hardware than all the $800 WinMo high end devices at the time. Yet, it could play youtube videos. It didn't need to make individual folders for music and you didn't have to copy over a placeholder jpeg because Pocket Windows Media 9 at the time didn't fully support album art? Copying a jpeg and naming it folder.jpg for each artist and album is the stupidest thing I can think of as a work-around. And you figure, since Microsoft had a decade head-start, they would have had HTML email, IMAP with SSL support? So I guess, that isn't Windows Mobile's fault either? A dual snap-dragron CPU circa 2007 would have made no difference if the UI look like it came from Windows 3.11.

Clearly, are you dismissing the user-experience?
 
So, WinMo had 13 years of crap hardware? I agreed it was a little too late.

But explain to me how a 412 mhz Samsung risc cpu on the 1st gen iPhone scrolled smoother than various 612mhz Windows Mobile devices circa 2007?

How a HVGA 480x320 "pure marketing" device rendered better web pages compared to high end WinMo devices that that sported 640x480 VGA screens even with VGA/cleartype hacks on them?

Clearly the iPhone had lower spec hardware than all the $800 WinMo high end devices at the time. Yet, it could play youtube videos. It didn't need to make individual folders for music and you didn't have to copy over a placeholder jpeg because Pocket Windows Media 9 at the time didn't fully support album art? Copying a jpeg and naming it folder.jpg for each artist and album is the stupidest thing I can think of as a work-around. And you figure, since Microsoft had a decade head-start, they would have had HTML email, IMAP with SSL support? So I guess, that isn't Windows Mobile's fault either? A dual snap-dragron CPU circa 2007 would have made no difference if the UI look like it came from Windows 3.11.

Clearly, are you dismissing the user-experience?

Never really cared about album art, and I never had any of these issues with my mogul/tp/tp2. And I was able to play youtube videos just fine...
 
Okay,

I apologize if I am wrong here, but I want to correct ALOT of misinformation in this thread.

OP, The class action suit confuses me because it implies exclusivity agreements between devs and apple. This does not happen, if you want proof, look at the cross platform apps. Trimble, backcountry navigator, Borders ereeder, and kindle come to mind. These are not front ends to a common online database (ala gmail), they are native apps designed from the ground up to work on their respective platforms.

But that's not cross-platform development, therefore your claims of misinformation are simply based on your own misconception. What you've described is single-platform development, needlessly duplicated to accommodate Apple's restrictions. This method requires far more time, money, and developers to accomplish the same goal, and as such is far less financially viable, thus putting Apple at an unfair advantage. This is anticompetitive, and should be actionable under antitrust regulations.
 
Your theoretical lawsuit relies on this premise for it to have any merit at all. Unfortunately, this is also the one thing that throughout this entire thread has never had anything to back it up short of your assumption that the Tour de France app you wanted would have been released for Android anyway.

Have you ever actually done any cross-platform development?

Have you any idea how much more expensive and time-consuming it is, to support multiple platforms by completely refactoring the same codebase over and over again, for multiple SDKs; APIs and toolkits, on multiple platforms, rather than simply using a single cross-platform toolchain; toolkit and IDE for all of them?

The cost of development is the single most critical factor in determining the competitiveness of a product. Apple have deliberately made it financially non-viable for developers to support both Apple and their competitors with the same codebase, and they've implemented this restriction with no technical justification whatsoever. IOW they've implemented this restriction purely as an anticompetitive measure.

Do you still believe that isn't actionable?
 
I still believe it isn't any company's job to make it easier for people to create product for their competitors. If it was truly financially non-viable to support both Apple and their competitors, then why are so many apps found on both platforms?

If we're going to start demanding technical justification for companies using different designs, processes, or tools from their competitors because that makes it touch on developers, lots of industries are going to be in trouble. Will Ford switch to Chevy's head design so Edelbrock doesn't need to design new headers for the Mustang from scratch instead of just modifying Camaro headers? Maybe Canon should be forced to change their lens mounting system so you can use Nikon lenses on their cameras. I know having to develop each new lens with different mounts costs Sigma and Tokina lots of money...

Looking at it another way, what's happened to pretty much every other computer hardware manufacturer that's insisted on being completely proprietary? It's not sustainable. Nobody keeps the lead forever, and when you've painted yourself into a proprietary corner, you just doom yourself. Just look at Firewire. For a little while it was hugely popular and most high-end devices used it. Now Firewire ports are outnumbered by USB ports even on Apple products and almost never found on anything else at all.

I say let Apple force developers to jump through these hoops. In the end I think it just pushes more of them our way than it does theirs.
 
If we're going to start demanding technical justification for companies using different designs, processes, or tools from their competitors because that makes it touch on developers, lots of industries are going to be in trouble. Will Ford switch to Chevy's head design so Edelbrock doesn't need to design new headers for the Mustang from scratch instead of just modifying Camaro headers? Maybe Canon should be forced to change their lens mounting system so you can use Nikon lenses on their cameras. I know having to develop each new lens with different mounts costs Sigma and Tokina lots of money...

Apples and Oranges my friend. And without trying to be rude your two examples call in to question your ability to comprehend the point being made.

In your car terms. Edelbrock develops a header adapter plate allowing them to design a universal header for all 4, V6, V8 engine configurations respectively. (As of now still impossible due to differences in displacement, compression, cylinder spacing, and angle. All directly effect the ability to tune the exhaust to each engine, thus mitigating the performance features of an aftermarket header. But that's beside the point) In response to the adapter plate each auto manufacturer states if you bring in your car for any service with said header/plate, not only will they void your warranty, but disable your o2 sensors rending the auto inoperable (legally speaking if you live in California).

Oh and with respect to cameras the same applies. Canon came up with a mount, Nikon a different mount. Neither has ever gone on the record saying a customer would not be allowed to use an adapter if available.

Ride bicycles? Shimano, Campagnola, different rear hub cassette interfaces. Every major parts supplier produces and sells adapters to run either shifter set with either hub set. Neither company cares. in case you don't know Shifters, deraileurs, and cassettes all have to match for anything to actually shift properly.

In contrast with respect to Apple/Android a company (Apple) is creating hurdles (through a Terms agreement only) that other wise wouldn't exist. And Apple is doing it after the fact, knowing that cross compilers were going to out and available to every developer. Who as you note would probably rather be working with Android anyways.

Try to think through an argument completely before jumping on unrelated example(s) to try and further what may not be the most sound ideological position.
 
Ok so my examples weren't that great, but I still don't think Apple should be sued for putting conditions on products sold through their store for their products.
 
But that's not cross-platform development, therefore your claims of misinformation are simply based on your own misconception. What you've described is single-platform development, needlessly duplicated to accommodate Apple's restrictions. This method requires far more time, money, and developers to accomplish the same goal, and as such is far less financially viable, thus putting Apple at an unfair advantage. This is anticompetitive, and should be actionable under antitrust regulations.

I understand that is platform independent development, but it is no different than win mobile v palm. What the op claims is forcing companies to choose. Apple is not doing that. I agree their practices are less than ethical, but I disagree they are actionable.

Android could support C, but they do not. Each company has their own way of doing things. That is what business is about.

One thing I do know, every app I have on both os's has a much better implementation, much better features, and even with os 4, crashes less.
 
I understand that is platform independent development, but it is no different than win mobile v palm.

Clearly you don't understand, as that is not comparable at all, because neither Microsoft nor Palm forbid developers from using cross-platform development tools, like Apple does.

What the op claims is forcing companies to choose. Apple is not doing that.

Yes they are. They're deliberately and unnecessarily creating a massive financial disincentive for developers to support both Apple and other systems.

I agree their practices are less than ethical, but I disagree they are actionable.

It's actionable because antitrust regulations explicitly forbid restrictions of trade in support of a monopoly. Read the Sherman Act, it's right there in black and white.

Android could support C, but they do not.

Wrong.

Wikipedia said:
Native code

Libraries written in C and other languages can be compiled to ARM native code and installed using the Android Native Development Kit. Native classes can be called from Java code running under the Dalvik VM using the System.loadLibrary call, which is part of the standard Android Java classes.[94][95]

Complete applications can be compiled and installed using traditional development tools.[96] The ADB debugger gives a root shell under the Android Emulator which allows native ARM code to be uploaded and executed. ARM code can be compiled using GCC on a standard PC.

Each company has their own way of doing things. That is what business is about.

No. Business is about selling goods and services. That's all. Anything else is just an excuse for a bunch of grey-suited thugs to bash each other over the head, leaving innocent bystanders (consumers) as victims.
 
Yes they are. They're deliberately and unnecessarily creating a massive financial disincentive for developers to support both Apple and other systems.

Developers can choose not to develop for the iPhone, hence, no developer "monopoly". What Apple is doing isn't illegal in any way shape or form. The iTunes store, is their store. Period. They can do what they want with it. Period. In my families business, I don't have to sell everyone's merchandise, I don't have to offer anything in my store I don't want. Same rules apply to Apple's iTunes store. It's their store, and they can choose what to stock, and what not to stock on their digital shelves.

If you had a digital store, that sold programs, would you like it if the government told you that you had to sell your competitors goods?
 
Developers can choose not to develop for the iPhone

And so lose one third of their market potential.

hence, no developer "monopoly".

Monopoly need not mean 100% control, as the DOJ Findings of Facts in the Microsoft case testifies. Apple have a significant portion of the market, and a position of monopoly on the distribution of iPhone software. The fact that they sell a piece of hardware gives them no right to restrict the trade of application software for that device, any more than Ford have the right to dictate what brand of fuel you use in your car.

What Apple is doing isn't illegal in any way shape or form.

In your opinion.

The iTunes store, is their store. Period. They can do what they want with it. Period.

The law disagrees. Period.

Michael Dell thought he could do anything he wanted with his store too, but that didn't stop the SEC prosecuting him for fraud, relating to bribes taken from Intel to exclude AMD from their business.

In my families business, I don't have to sell everyone's merchandise, I don't have to offer anything in my store I don't want.

Monopoly abuse pertains to dominant market forces, not small businesses. Indeed, antitrust regulations exist specifically to protect smaller businesses like yours from being illegally pressured out of the market with exclusion contracts, so you should be highly grateful for them.

Same rules apply to Apple's iTunes store. It's their store, and they can choose what to stock, and what not to stock on their digital shelves.

If the choices made by that dominant company are subsequently proved to be an illegal restraint of trade in support of a monopoly (e.g. by dissuading developers from supporting multiple platforms through an exclusion contract), then "their store" becomes something other than just a retail premises ... it becomes a criminal operation under antitrust regulations.

If you had a digital store, that sold programs, would you like it if the government told you that you had to sell your competitors goods?

Since when are iPhone application developers Apple's competitors? For that matter, since when are those who manufacture the goods on your shelves your competitors? How can a retailer's supplier be that retailer's competitor?

This issue is not about Apple rejecting unsuitable software from their store, or even about them (bizarrely) viewing application developers as competition. This is about Apple essentially demanding that no iPhone developer also develops that same application for other platforms ... by making ridiculously anticompetitive restrictions to their policies, which make it financially non-viable for most commercial developers to do so.

And in answer to your question: the government would never need to tell me I had to sell my competitors goods, because No1: the goods on my shelves don't "compete" with me ... they feed me, and No2 I'm not the sort of person who takes bribes or exclusion contracts (protection rackets) to exclude my supplier's competition. But if I were one of those people, then yes the government would be well within its rights to chastise me, and no I probably wouldn't like it any more than corporate thugs like Ballmer and Jobs do.
 
And so lose one third of their market potential.



Monopoly need not mean 100% control, as the DOJ Findings of Facts in the Microsoft case testifies. Apple have a significant portion of the market, and a position of monopoly on the distribution of iPhone software. The fact that they sell a piece of hardware gives them no right to restrict the trade of application software for that device, any more than Ford have the right to dictate what brand of fuel you use in your car.



In your opinion.



The law disagrees. Period.

Michael Dell thought he could do anything he wanted with his store too, but that didn't stop the SEC prosecuting him for fraud, relating to bribes taken from Intel to exclude AMD from their business.



Monopoly abuse pertains to dominant market forces, not small businesses. Indeed, antitrust regulations exist specifically to protect smaller businesses like yours from being illegally pressured out of the market with exclusion contracts, so you should be highly grateful for them.



If the choices made by that dominant company are subsequently proved to be an illegal restraint of trade in support of a monopoly (e.g. by dissuading developers from supporting multiple platforms through an exclusion contract), then "their store" becomes something other than just a retail premises ... it becomes a criminal operation under antitrust regulations.



Since when are iPhone application developers Apple's competitors? For that matter, since when are those who manufacture the goods on your shelves your competitors? How can a retailer's supplier be that retailer's competitor?

This issue is not about Apple rejecting unsuitable software from their store, or even about them (bizarrely) viewing application developers as competition. This is about Apple essentially demanding that no iPhone developer also develops that same application for other platforms ... by making ridiculously anticompetitive restrictions to their policies, which make it financially non-viable for most commercial developers to do so.

And in answer to your question: the government would never need to tell me I had to sell my competitors goods, because No1: the goods on my shelves don't "compete" with me ... they feed me, and No2 I'm not the sort of person who takes bribes or exclusion contracts (protection rackets) to exclude my supplier's competition. But if I were one of those people, then yes the government would be well within its rights to chastise me, and no I probably wouldn't like it any more than corporate thugs like Ballmer and Jobs do.

Here's something that invalidates your whole argumetn. How does this invlove bribery in any way shape or form? Bribery is clearly a different animal. fact is, people can simply choose not to develop for iOs, ergo nothing illegal being done. If want to be able to program qbasic for google android, and google doesn't allow it, should I sue them? Fact is, apple is doing nothing illegal with their app store. They could, however be forced to allow sideloading of apps without a jailbreak, and without voiding the warranty. But that's not the app store, now is it?
 
Here's something that invalidates your whole argumetn. How does this invlove bribery in any way shape or form? Bribery is clearly a different animal.

Read what I wrote again:

bribes or exclusion contracts

I gave specific examples of how other companies had been prosecuted for "doing whatever they wanted", to demonstrate that they patently can't under the law, because there seems to be a disturbing pattern of support for that sort of cowboy mentality within certain elements of our society, to the point that such people seem incapable of even comprehending the immorality of such behaviour.

Apple's case may or may not involve one form or another of bribery (the practice seems sadly common throughout the business world), but that is not even the central point. As much as I find bribery disgusting, the key issue is whether or not there is any sinister collusion to exclude competition. It may be through bribery or any other nefarious means, but the outcome is far more significant than the method, and in both Apple's and Dell's cases the outcome is exclusion of competition by some underhand business practise. People should simply not accept that sort of "business" practice as normal, but it seems like an uphill battle to convince them. Fortunately for the rest of us, they don't need to be convinced, because we have the law to make the final judgement, and the law invariably favours the side of ethics ... even if the ethically challenged masses don't.

fact is, people can simply choose not to develop for iOs, ergo nothing illegal being done.

Well that disingenuously assumes that it's a choice of free-will, rather than coercion through financial disincentives.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who will voluntarily choose to ignore Apple's platform ... I'm one of them, but for somewhat more politically motivated reasons. Equally I'm sure some developers will support both iOS and Android, at least those lucky enough to have sufficient resources to completely refactor their codebases for each platform, since multi-platform development is simply not possible ... thanks to Apple's policies.

However, it's more likely that the majority will be forced, through financial considerations, to support only one or the other, or (at best) to support one platform primarily, whilst only allocating minimum resources to "porting" to the other.

We've all seen the results of "porting" versus true cross-platform development. The first issue is the massive delay between native and ported releases, but IMHO an even bigger issue is the abysmal quality of the results. Take Gameloft titles for example: most prominently "Assassin's Creed - Altair's Chronicles", or DataViz Documents to Go. If users even see certain key quality software ported to Android at all, it's a miracle, but if and when it finally does make it over, it's usually a buggy, slow, half-baked attempt that's barely worth their money.

This is why proper multi-platform development is absolutely vital, to both developers and users. Developers need maximum market exposure at minimum cost, and consumers need parity of access to software titles, regardless of what platform they're using.

Neither DataViz nor Gameloft are Apple's competitors. They're merely suppliers, like wholesalers supplying fruit to market stallholders. So it shouldn't matter to Apple that those suppliers also supply other stallholders, indeed it's none of their damned business. But Apple have made it their business, by creating policies which make it difficult for those suppliers to supply Apple's competitors. Am I the only person here capable of seeing so clearly how comparable this is with racketeering?

If want to be able to program qbasic for google android, and google doesn't allow it, should I sue them?

The specific development language is irrelevant to the principle that companies should not be allowed to coerce third parties to exclude that company's competition. That is textbook racketeering, plain and simple.

Fact is, apple is doing nothing illegal with their app store.

The store is not the problem, it's their policy of refusing software created using non-Apple development tools which is at issue. The fact that their store is the only point of access for any iOS software (unless customers violate Apple's policies, and invalidate their warranties, by "jailbreaking" the goods they bought) merely compounds the issue, since that then means they have a monopoly on the distribution of such software. They then abuse that monopoly by creating policies which coerce third parties to exclude competing platforms, and that is where they cross the line. Apple should not be allowed to wield such power over third parties, and should not be allowed to use such devious tactics to exclude their competitors.

They could, however be forced to allow sideloading of apps without a jailbreak, and without voiding the warranty.

Bingo. We have a winner.

That would completely solve the problem, and address every issue I have with Apple's policies, since it would allow third parties to use whatever development tools they wanted to create iOS software - and software for any other platform - simultaneously and with absolute parity.

But that's not the app store, now is it?

Like I said, the app store, taken in isolation, is not the problem. Note that Apple would still be able to "do whatever they wanted" with their store (within the law). Perhaps now you understand why this issue was never about dictating what people sell in their own premises, but rather what devious tactics they used to abuse their monopoly position to exclude competition.

And maybe you now also understand why Apple have implemented this seemingly bizarre policy in the first place, specifically as an underhand tactic to exclude competition, and for no other reason. And why they absolutely will not allow "sideloading" of applications, because that would utterly defeat their criminal intentions.

Admittedly it's a brilliant strategy:


  1. Create a piece of hardware
  2. Use proprietary protection methods to restrict access to that hardware, to only software approved by Apple (code signing)
  3. Release the hardware under a contract that forbids circumvention of that protection (warranty, remote wiping, and the DMCA)
  4. Create development tools which only support Apple's platform
  5. Create and control a single closed-shop repository for software
  6. Reject all software submitted to that repository not created using Apple's development tools

Yes, brilliant ... and utterly morally bankrupt. But then it's a fact that malevolence seems to breed devious ingenuity.

The result is a platform which cannot possibly be developed for simultaneously with competing platforms using the same codebase, thus ensuring developers must always relegate those alternative platforms to the status of low-priority, second-class citizens - at best, or completely ignore them at worst.

Of course, this is only relevant because Apple has such a large market share, and thus the power to entice developers to support their platform. By coercing those developers to support their platform exclusively, however, they are guilty of abusing that dominant position (monopoly abuse). If Apple had an insignificant share of the market, then their policies would harm no one but themselves, because then they would be the second-class citizens that no developer would want to support ... because Apple makes it unnecessarily difficult for them to do so without an exclusive commitment.

Any one of the above steps, taken in isolation, might rightly be claimed to be well within Apple's rights to "do whatever they want" (even if many of the steps are profoundly immoral), but, as you can see, it's the particular devious combination of these steps which produces a criminally anticompetitive result.

This is why I believe Apple should be prosecuted.
 
Ah, then at last, we are in agreement, sort of. While they really can't force apple to sell things in their ,(and nor is it immoral to be choosey on what products get sold in the store, after all, if this was the case, you'd see levi jan and lee jean trying to sue to get placement in "trendy" jean stores and the like, no?)

However the ability to sideload apps is a must for all platforms, and that's where a case can be made, not with the app store.
 
Well I figured I would resurrect this thread as a bit of a told you so to the hand full of not so friendly posters who wanted to slam me for suggesting Apples earlier stance on Adobe Flash development and cross compilers wasn't right and shouldn't/wouldn't last.

Adobe shares jump after Apple decision on Flash - BusinessWeek

It seems as though a combination of back door legal wrangling by Adobe, and Androids ever growing popularity do indeed have sway over some of Apples business practices. It turns out Flash development and cross compilers were never the toxic pill Apple was trying to make them out to be after all. Win for consumers.

I wonder where all the millions Apple spent to make its operating system compatible to cross compilers is going to show up in it quarterly reports. LOL
 
I've heard that MS has set up Windows Phone 7 so you can only develop for it on a Windows platform. If true I suppose they should be sued too?
 
I've heard that MS has set up Windows Phone 7 so you can only develop for it on a Windows platform. If true I suppose they should be sued too?
LOL, playing naive won't win you any debates. Having a closed operating system from day one is completely different from acknowledging after the fact that there are tools that allow one to develop for multiple platforms and deciding after these tools are made public that you will not allow their use for apps on your OS without negative final product impact. To rehash again, Jobs can emphasis his dev. tools will work best because they are natively integrated, but he doesn't have the right without showing a negative impact to the final product (ie. the competitors product simply doesn't work) to deny the use of a comparable competitors product. (Anti-trust 101)

Stick with your naive apples to oranges approach if it helps you to convince yourself that you are right. I don't care, I am relishing in 23 percent bump I got from my Adobe stock with this news. Why did I buy in the end of June (again)? because I knew Jobsie couldn't kill Flash as a mobile app development tool (legally), or wipe it from the internet. (expected semi robust sales of CS5 didn't hurt either)

BTW if it turns out that cross platform dev tools do work with WinMo 7 I am sure MS will change there tune after a few months of poor App development adoption and the resulting inability to permeate the consumer (non commercial) market.
 
Interesting discussion, and at the risk of displaying my ignorance of both developing and anti-trust law, it would seem to me that if Apple adopts a policy that programmers cannot use cross-platform tools for no other purpose other than to prevent them from being able to profitably develop applications for other platforms, in order to maintain Apple's dominant position in the market . . . well, that's at least enough of an allegation of an anti-competitive practice that somebody ought to look into it. I don't think it's the Android users who would be the plaintiffs though; rather it seems that developers who could make much more money if they could use those cross-platform tools would be the true, directly aggrieved parties. And/or Google and Adobe.
 
Interesting discussion, and at the risk of displaying my ignorance of both developing and anti-trust law, it would seem to me that if Apple adopts a policy that programmers cannot use cross-platform tools for no other purpose other than to prevent them from being able to profitably develop applications for other platforms, in order to maintain Apple's dominant position in the market . . . well, that's at least enough of an allegation of an anti-competitive practice that somebody ought to look into it. I don't think it's the Android users who would be the plaintiffs though; rather it seems that developers who could make much more money if they could use those cross-platform tools would be the true, directly aggrieved parties. And/or Google and Adobe.

This is an old thread and at the time I was just trying to get people to think about this. I am not a lawyer and never knew if consumers had the claim or developers. Interesting enough as Apple was finally releasing in writing the approval standards for IOS apps yesterday, they also announced they would no longer be blocking apps from the store that use non-Apple development tools. The reactions of a former market leader being knocked down to a smaller market player. (something else I forecasted and was picked on for in this thread)

Adobe announced today it will be finalizing Flash to Iphone shortly (it was pulled from CS5 because Jobs announced 4 days before its release that Apps developed with cross compilers would not be approved) so developers will be a able to develop for multiple platforms at once.

Interesting enough yesterdays concessions by Apple were perfectly timed with market stats that show Android will be the number 2 mobile operating system behind Nokia by the end of the year, Apple to a distant third. The rapid adoption of Android and the resulting market demand for Android Apps (and Jobs subsequent acknowledgment of the need to cave on cross compilers) is probably the only thing that saved Apple from an Anti-trust suit.(opinion)
 
This is an old thread and at the time I was just trying to get people to think about this. I am not a lawyer and never knew if consumers had the claim or developers. Interesting enough as Apple was finally releasing in writing the approval standards for IOS apps yesterday, they also announced they would no longer be blocking apps from the store that use non-Apple development tools. The reactions of a former market leader being knocked down to a smaller market player. (something else I forecasted and was picked on for in this thread)

Adobe announced today it will be finalizing Flash to Iphone shortly (it was pulled from CS5 because Jobs announced 4 days before its release that Apps developed with cross compilers would not be approved) so developers will be a able to develop for multiple platforms at once.

Interesting enough yesterdays concessions by Apple were perfectly timed with market stats that show Android will be the number 2 mobile operating system behind Nokia by the end of the year, Apple to a distant third. The rapid adoption of Android and the resulting market demand for Android Apps (and Jobs subsequent acknowledgment of the need to cave on cross compilers) is probably the only thing that saved Apple from an Anti-trust suit.(opinion)

Sounds like a big FAIL on Apple's part on this one . . .
 
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