Does anyone drive a dual clutch automatic?

[dibblebill]

That's a real handy thing! I've inadvertently downshifted into first gear at speed, thinking it was third, confidently let out the clutch and heard that horrible sound of an engine over-revving and breaking valvetrain components before, and never want to go through that again. That's another nice thing about computer controls: they will stop you from doing something that you'd never want to do. Doubleplusgood!

Yeah. My roommate wished he had the DSG in the Golf R vs the manual he got, he did that a few tiems to. Though my only performance driving experience is Forza 4 and Shift 2, I've blwon engines in both games (yes, games, not RL) enough times to surmise that downshifting too much can cause RL damage as well.

 

[MoodyBlues]

I've inadvertently downshifted into first gear at speed, thinking it was third, confidently let out the clutch and heard that horrible sound of an engine over-revving and breaking valvetrain components before, and never want to go through that again.

Yeah. My roommate wished he had the DSG in the Golf R vs the manual he got, he did that a few tiems to. Though my only performance driving experience is Forza 4 and Shift 2, I've blwon engines in both games (yes, games, not RL) enough times to surmise that downshifting too much can cause RL damage as well.

I seriously must be some kind of freak of nature (no need for affirmative comments to that effect, thank you very much. ). Other than maybe ONCE, in my early days of driving a stick shift, I just never have inadvertently downshifted to the wrong gear. Yes, I'm compulsive about being a perfectionist, so that probably plays a part in this, but, really, it just doesn't happen to me.

That's another nice thing about computer controls: they will stop you from doing something that you'd never want to do.

I like to rely on that gray computer in my skull for stuff like that.

 

[vr4]

Okay, now I'm thoroughly confused. I thought dual clutch was strictly an automatic thing.


See above.


That all makes perfectly good sense...but I'm still confused. I still thought/think that dual clutch is unique to automatic transmissions.


Ugh! Not for me. *I* like making my own decisions. Therefore, as much as I would love to drive a race car, I would HATE having the sequential manual transmission it may very well have nowadays. Trust me, if I need to go from 5th to 2nd, there's a damn good reason for it! (Like traffic suddenly stopping on a freeway for an accident.) Or from 1st to 3rd. (Like coasting down a mountain.) I don't want any computer doing the thinking for me.


No. Yes. No. Unequivocally no. Maybe. Yes. Okay!! Once every 10 years or so I'm in a situation where my clutch foot hurts like hell (creeping up to Griffith Observatory, in bumper to bumper traffic, to see the Space Shuttle Endeavour fly over the Hollywood sign comes to mind), and I find myself thinking--momentarily--gee, an automatic sure would be nice!


I thought these were different--I know they use paddles, but I thought they were sequential manual transmissions, meaning that you can only up- or downshift one gear at a time, in order, but it's still a manual transmission.

understandably confused. speed threw you off with the whole manual/automatic thing.


i wont use individual automaker names to help avoid confusion.


a dual clutch transmission is ALWAYS an automated manual transmission. it is 100% computer controlled with driver interface (shift paddles). many of the high performance ones will do EXACTLY what you want it to (downshift into 2nd at 130mph? sure. youll blow the engine and the command will be stored in the computer so kiss warranty goodbye....but itll do it)

as previously explained in an earlier post...it is a transmission with one set of gears connected to one clutch disc and another set of gears connected to the second disc. this is done so the trans can pre-select the next gear to aid in shift speed (its faster to disengage one clutch and engage the second than it is to disengage, shift, engage). it also helps lessen wear to a small extent since you dont need to rely on the synchro to make the speed match that much quicker.

the dual clutch automatic does not use a torque converter though it may use an internal pump to provide for shift action.


the "dual clutch" manual that threw you off isnt a dual clutch. its a dual DISC clutch. is still one single clutch assy but instead of being arranged in the usual way (flywheel, disc, pressue plate) it goes flywheel, friction disc, unsplined floater disc, friction disc, pressure plate. these are used to provide very high horsepower capability with reduced rotating mass. there are also triple disc options (though i have yet to see one from an OE)

 

[MoodyBlues]

a dual clutch transmission is ALWAYS an automated manual transmission.

That's how I understood it to begin with.

it is 100% computer controlled with driver interface (shift paddles). many of the high performance ones will do EXACTLY what you want it to (downshift into 2nd at 130mph? sure. youll blow the engine and the command will be stored in the computer so kiss warranty goodbye....but itll do it)

Yet another reason to stay away from computerized engines!

as previously explained in an earlier post...it is a transmission with one set of gears connected to one clutch disc and another set of gears connected to the second disc. this is done so the trans can pre-select the next gear to aid in shift speed (its faster to disengage one clutch and engage the second than it is to disengage, shift, engage). it also helps lessen wear to a small extent since you dont need to rely on the synchro to make the speed match that much quicker.

the dual clutch automatic does not use a torque converter though it may use an internal pump to provide for shift action.


the "dual clutch" manual that threw you off isnt a dual clutch. its a dual DISC clutch. is still one single clutch assy but instead of being arranged in the usual way (flywheel, disc, pressue plate) it goes flywheel, friction disc, unsplined floater disc, friction disc, pressure plate. these are used to provide very high horsepower capability with reduced rotating mass. there are also triple disc options (though i have yet to see one from an OE)

Thanks for the input.

And I still plan on sticking with REAL manual transmissions. I just prefer making my own decisions, in everything from what operating system I use to when I shift gears while driving. (And I've never blown an engine/transmission, because as I said, when *I* shift from 5th to 2nd there's a damn good reason for it, like slowing down quickly. I did not/do not mean I downshift from 90 to 25 AND let out the clutch. )

 

[Speed Daemon]

I seriously must be some kind of freak of nature (no need for affirmative comments to that effect, thank you very much. ). Other than maybe ONCE, in my early days of driving a stick shift, I just never have inadvertently downshifted to the wrong gear. Yes, I'm compulsive about being a perfectionist, so that probably plays a part in this, but, really, it just doesn't happen to me.

That perfectionism, coupled with a comfortable income probably means that you've had the good fortune to be able to choose and drive M/T cars that have decent shifters. Unfortunately I haven't been able to pick and choose what I drove. Working at a service station and having a side business of "horse trading" old cars has its pitfalls.

 

[MoodyBlues]

That perfectionism, coupled with a comfortable income probably means that you've had the good fortune to be able to choose and drive M/T cars that have decent shifters.

Before becoming disabled, I did indeed have quite a comfortable income (in the six figures). I feel very blessed to have had that kind of career, but at the same time it's extremely sad for me to think that it's all in the past. I would trade my SSDI for going back to work in a heartbeat. And the $1 million dollar house, that never had a mortgage, I'm about to inherit [when my mom dies...which I keep hoping won't be soon...but she's under end-of-life hospice care, so...] will be nice, and I feel blessed about that, too, but I'd still prefer being able to work again. Selling the house I bought in Dallas, and paid the mortgage on every month for 18 years, was really difficult and sad for me. It was MINE. This house isn't.

Anyway, back to cars... I've only owned Toyotas, all with manual transmissions, since 1985, and every one shifted like a dream. I cannot recall ever accidentally downshifting to the wrong gear in any of them. The only remotely--and I really mean REMOTELY!--related problem I've ever had in all that time was needing to replace the pad on the clutch pedal.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to pick and choose what I drove. Working at a service station and having a side business of "horse trading" old cars has its pitfalls.

I don't know what your life situation is, but there's always time to make changes. Because of pregnancies and a near-fatal illness culminating in a hysterectomy @ 22, I wasn't able to go to college at the 'normal' time. I was 26 when I started college--and fully intended to be a physician. I spent 5 years killing myself to make the best grades, with honors, in pre-med, only to decide to totally switch career paths...and that's how I got into the UNIX, then Linux, programming and system administration career that was so good to me. So you never know. You may be working at a gas station now, but what about tomorrow? next week? next month? next year? You're clearly a smart guy, so the sky's the limit.

 

[vr4]

Before becoming disabled, I did indeed have quite a comfortable income (in the six figures). I feel very blessed to have had that kind of career, but at the same time it's extremely sad for me to think that it's all in the past. I would trade my SSDI for going back to work in a heartbeat. And the $1 million dollar house, that never had a mortgage, I'm about to inherit [when my mom dies...which I keep hoping won't be soon...but she's under end-of-life hospice care, so...] will be nice, and I feel blessed about that, too, but I'd still prefer being able to work again. Selling the house I bought in Dallas, and paid the mortgage on every month for 18 years, was really difficult and sad for me. It was MINE. This house isn't.

Anyway, back to cars... I've only owned Toyotas, all with manual transmissions, since 1985, and every one shifted like a dream. I cannot recall ever accidentally downshifting to the wrong gear in any of them. The only remotely--and I really mean REMOTELY!--related problem I've ever had in all that time was needing to replace the pad on the clutch pedal.


I don't know what your life situation is, but there's always time to make changes. Because of pregnancies and a near-fatal illness culminating in a hysterectomy @ 22, I wasn't able to go to college at the 'normal' time. I was 26 when I started college--and fully intended to be a physician. I spent 5 years killing myself to make the best grades, with honors, in pre-med, only to decide to totally switch career paths...and that's how I got into the UNIX, then Linux, programming and system administration career that was so good to me. So you never know. You may be working at a gas station now, but what about tomorrow? next week? next month? next year? You're clearly a smart guy, so the sky's the limit.

Very well said. While I'm in the same field doing the same thing i was 10 years ago my income has tripled and I'm actually happy doing what i do. It doesn't just feel like a job.

 

[Speed Daemon]

Before becoming disabled...

I don't know what your life situation is, but there's always time to make changes. ... You may be working at a gas station now, but what about tomorrow? next week? next month? next year? You're clearly a smart guy, so the sky's the limit.

LOL...You think I work in a gas station? :rofl:

No, I'm disabled...like you. My working days are also a fond memory. I may end up working at a gas station like I did between high school and college. But I'll be doing it as the station's owner, after my mom dies and I can move to be closer to my family. Until then my full-time job is dealing with my own health issues and taking care of my mom. And at my age and rate of recovery, I'll be able-bodied right about the time the actuarial tables say I'll be dead. So...

If you haven't already guessed, I'm a Ford guy.

 

[MoodyBlues]

LOL...You think I work in a gas station? :rofl:

Hey, if you hadn't slept in days, you could inadvertently type 'gas station' instead of 'service station,' too! :tongue:

No, I'm disabled...like you. My working days are also a fond memory.

Between the broken bones that caused my initial break [pun fully intended] from my job and the brain tumor that definitively ended working a real job again, I started various web sites. We live in the digital age, my friend! My web sites have been a great success (well, nowhere CLOSE to my old income, but enough to make most people who try selling designs at places like CafePress and Zazzle envious). They're making money while I'm doing nothing. They made money while I was out of commission for six months following brain surgery. Don't forget, they've even made me famous. Why not try something online?

I may end up working at a gas station like I did between high school and college. But I'll be doing it as the station's owner, after my mom dies and I can move to be closer to my family. Until then my full-time job is dealing with my own health issues and taking care of my mom. And at my age and rate of recovery, I'll be able-bodied right about the time the actuarial tables say I'll be dead. So...

I hear you. :s:

If you haven't already guessed, I'm a Ford guy.

Now I get the shifting problems. :rofl:

 

[Speed Daemon]

Hey, if you hadn't slept in days, you could inadvertently type 'gas station' instead of 'service station,' too! :tongue:

No matter what the name, it's been 30 years since I've done that for a living.

Between the broken bones that caused my initial break [pun fully intended] from my job and the brain tumor that definitively ended working a real job again, I started various web sites. We live in the digital age, my friend! My web sites have been a great success (well, nowhere CLOSE to my old income, but enough to make most people who try selling designs at places like CafePress and Zazzle envious). They're making money while I'm doing nothing. They made money while I was out of commission for six months following brain surgery. Don't forget, they've even made me famous. Why not try something online?

I didn't get any clean breaks. My disease progressed so subtly that by the time I realized that I had a big problem, the problem was bad enough to preclude me doing much of anything. One day I woke up and realized that I had let all of my clients go, and I was more relieved than anything. I had a business. I simply couldn't keep it going any more. And since I'm neither in sales or web development, doing what you did wasn't feasible for me.

It's hard for people who haven't been through what I have to understand. I've been trying "mind over matter" for a decade now, and matter has won. If I had had 20/20 foresight, things would be different now. But that's not how it's playing out.

Now I get the shifting problems. :rofl:

:eviltongue:

 

[MoodyBlues]

I didn't get any clean breaks. My disease progressed so subtly that by the time I realized that I had a big problem, the problem was bad enough to preclude me doing much of anything. One day I woke up and realized that I had let all of my clients go, and I was more relieved than anything. I had a business. I simply couldn't keep it going any more.

That must have been really hard. I'm sorry.

And since I'm neither in sales or web development, doing what you did wasn't feasible for me.

I didn't mean, necessarily, that you should do the same thing I did, just in general that you could try something online. By the way, I had *ZERO* experience or knowledge when it came to either sales or web development or graphic design. I was a programmer and sysadmin. And when I started my first site/shop, I did it left-handed. I'm right-handed, but I'd broken my right wrist; I had skewers sticking out of my arm; my right hand was basically unusable for 8 months. I broke my wrist three months after breaking my ankle; I had hardware in there, too. I was bored out of my head, and just plunged in and started working on a concept I'd been toying with for years, but never had the time to pursue. And I did it left-handed!

It's hard for people who haven't been through what I have to understand.

Trust me, I understand. I don't mean I understand your specific issues, but I understand what you're saying. My life has been like a soap opera, so much so that I realize it can sound completely unbelievable, or at least greatly exaggerated, so I rarely share most of its details.

I've been trying "mind over matter" for a decade now, and matter has won.

Are you depressed? If so, and if you haven't sought help for that, I highly recommend doing so.

If I had had 20/20 foresight, things would be different now. But that's not how it's playing out.

Although I couldn't have known the specifics of what would happen, I DID have foresight that caused me to sock away a ton of money. I knew, based on history, that the odds were great I'd have more health problems down the road, and I prepared for that. But what I never anticipated was that I would become permanently unable to work in my 40s, and what the fallout would be. Never saw that coming...

 

[Speed Daemon]

That must have been really hard. I'm sorry.

It was really easy getting to where I'm at. The hard part only started recently, over the last two or three years.

Are you depressed? If so, and if you haven't sought help for that, I highly recommend doing so.

Clinical depression isn't the issue for me. Frankly, from what I've seen, depression is right up there with ADHD in the most casually diagnosed (and then prescribed, no coincidence there) condition in all of medicine. I know that getting treatment is a godsend for those with depression. But for those of who don't fit neatly in any box, it's a frustrating misdiagnosis.

I think we're going too far O/T here. It would be ideal if a Guide or Mod could snip out the O/T part and put it in a topic named "When Your Mind Makes a Promise That Your Body Can't Fill" or something like that, I'd love to carry on. I just don't think this is the right location.

 

[sleezecheeze]

Not daily but I have driven a dual clutch auto that didn't belong to me. Shifted incredibly smooth and quickly, the only indication it had shifted was the revmeter dropping and the slightly higher engine noise.

Literally didn't know it was shifting unless you were looking for it. It's amazing technology. I think the Nissan GT-R has a dual clutch transmission these days? If they're putting dual clutches on them you know it's something good.

EDIT: Are we talking of Automatic or Semi-Automatic dual clutch?

 

[dibblebill]

Some companies aren't. Lamborghini and Pagani don't because the clutch for the Huayra would've weighed like 800KG more if it were a dual-clutch.

 

[Davdi]

A few years ago I trained as a driving instructor in the UK, and current teaching for automatics is to use the left foot for braking and the right for the gas. two feet, two pedals, makes sense to me.

I currently drive an automatic using theat approach, and when I rent a Manual trans car there's no problem going back to the 'normal' Clutch with left foot, gas & brake with the right. OK, I've been driving sonve '71, mailly manuals with a fair sprinkling of Automatics in between.

 

[Speed Daemon]

A few years ago I trained as a driving instructor in the UK, and current teaching for automatics is to use the left foot for braking and the right for the gas. two feet, two pedals, makes sense to me.

The reason why it's a dangerous habit (and why your driving instructor should be sacked) is because in a panic situation, like when a crash is imminent, it's a natural reflex to shove both feet to the floor. If one foot is on the gas, that means you're applying full power when you should be applying no power!

A good driver will shift the right foot from the gas pedal to the brake naturally when there's any sign of trouble. This leads naturally to brakes-on, power-off, which is the best default setting. Many cars can easily overpower their brakes (the right side is the dominant side for 90% of people), and cause a near-crash to become a real crash. This can be easily prevented!

Training the driver to use one and only one foot to control all acceleration functions (braking is "negative acceleration") helps eliminate human errors like unintended acceleration, which is still a major problem. It may be fun to pretend that you're a rally driver, but it is not safe.

It has nothing to do with a clutch (or lack thereof), BTW. It's all about learned behavior.

 

[todthebod]

Love twin clutch. It pulls the whole time with no drop off during shifting.

 

[basic 101 user]

This thread has not been added to for quite some time, but I was very pleased to see people so enthusiastic about the particular subject, and discussing it in such detail. Also a very clear reminder of the subtleties of language; A discussion like this gets quite complicated as soon as we get away from "apples and oranges" (manual gearbox vs. automatic transmission), and start discussing the multiple different "hybrid" designs, which borrow technology and nomenclature from one another.....so many opportunities for even the most articulate and knowledgeable to accidentally go astray. The flow of power into a manual transmission is routed through a "clutch", while the gear ratios in conventional automatic transmissions are actuated by "clutch" packs or bands; Which ratio a driver selects in his/her manual (constant mesh design)gearbox (after depressing the "clutch pedal", usually) is a matter of which "dog clutch" inside the gear case is engaged, directed by moving the gear selector. Lots more room for confusion and misunderstanding, and certainly nobody's fault.
Beyond that, I could relate to some of the personal stories being shared here, thank you. Spent much of a successful career thinking extensively about these exact matters, then had a career implosion, and trying to reinvent now.

BTW, also a Ford guy, and definitely a Toyota guy, but not to the exclusion of many other things as well; A "ZF" fan as well. If I thought it were of any interest, I can think of a number of really interesting drive train designs experimented with over the years, could post some examples for the fun of it. Cheers.