EU to ban cars from cities by 2050

[lordofthereef]

I agree. the oil is not unlimited, but three thousand seven hundred billion plus is lots of oil. I do think alternatives will be discovered. That said, what pushes the left's agenda is scare tactics and that is wrong. We are green because of faulty science. We "need" this and that because we are running out of oil. Scare tactics sell ideas that a gullible public swallows.

Bob

I still don't really see how we are being gullible though. The numbers we have are a lot. Sadly, the numbers we consume are also a lot and rising. The way I see it is there are one of two options:
1.) Greatly reduce consumption by increasing efficiency (which you mentioned)
2.) Alternate renewable fuel sources.

At the rate I calculated, my grandchildren will literally be out of oil. I think it would be nice of us all to consider what our offspring and their offspring to come will need.

 

[cipher6]

I still don't really see how we are being gullible though. The numbers we have are a lot. Sadly, the numbers we consume are also a lot and rising. The way I see it is there are one of two options:
1.) Greatly reduce consumption by increasing efficiency (which you mentioned)
2.) Alternate renewable fuel sources.

At the rate I calculated, my grandchildren will literally be out of oil. I think it would be nice of us all to consider what our offspring and their offspring to come will need.

Your missing option 3. Find and produce more... as prices increase, and new technology is developed, production and proven reserves will increase.

But yes, eventually #2 will be the goal, we just can't flush our whole economy while waiting on it.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I still don't really see how we are being gullible though. The numbers we have are a lot. Sadly, the numbers we consume are also a lot and rising. The way I see it is there are one of two options:
1.) Greatly reduce consumption by increasing efficiency (which you mentioned)
2.) Alternate renewable fuel sources.

At the rate I calculated, my grandchildren will literally be out of oil. I think it would be nice of us all to consider what our offspring and their offspring to come will need.

Then there is this:

The Environmental Literacy Council - Abiotic Theory

First paragraph:

Abiotic Theory
There is an alternative theory about the formation of oil and gas deposits that could change estimates of potential future oil reserves. According to this theory, oil is not a fossil fuel at all, but was formed deep in the Earth's crust from inorganic materials. The theory was first proposed in the 1950s by Russian and Ukranian scientists. Based on the theory, successful exploratory drilling has been undertaken in the Caspian Sea region, Western Siberia, and the Dneiper-Donets Basin."

If this theory proves to be valid, perhaps we are in better shape than we thought.

Bob

 

[ElasticNinja]

would it really mean destruction to the economy to limit greenhouse gas emissions to aviation, shipping and inceneration in all rapidly industrialising / industrialised countries?

It certainly could be done if the citizens of China and the US face reality, Europeans get over Chernobyl, and India, Brazil etc get technological help

 

[cipher6]

would it really mean destruction to the economy to limit greenhouse gas emissions to aviation, shipping and inceneration in all rapidly industrialising / industrialised countries?

Most of the projected increases in oil consumption over the next decade comes from rapidly industrializing nations, like Africa, Asia and Middle East. Should we tell them they are not allowed progress because we've maxed the planet out already?

Plus, limiting greenhouse gas emissions, will increase prices on EVERYTHING. Third world and developing nations are already getting nailed with increases in food prices, that was one major factor in the Middle East rising up, its getting to expensive for them to eat.

Here at home, those price increases could cause inflation to skyrocket, and royally screw an already weak economy.

So, yeah... it could.

Now, I'm not saying don't do anything, but it has to be smart and balanced... you can't let ideology (on either side) cause an unbalanced policy.



Also:
Nuclear power/solar/wind, might reduce emissions, but they don't do much to relive us of our dependence on oil, and our weakness to price fluctuations... we don't generate much electricity from oil.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Most of the projected increases in oil consumption over the next decade comes from rapidly industrializing nations, like Africa, Asia and Middle East. Should we tell them they are not allowed progress because we've maxed the planet out already?

we will havr to tell them they cant, and eevery wasted day will worsen it for them

Plus, limiting greenhouse gas emissions, will increase prices on EVERYTHING. Third world and developing nations are already getting nailed with increases in food prices, that was one major factor in the Middle East rising up, its getting to expensive for them to eat.

I mean to switch energy use

Here at home, those price increases could cause inflation to skyrocket, and royally screw an already weak economy.

So, yeah... it could.

Now, I'm not saying don't do anything, but it has to be smart and balanced... you can't let ideology (on either side) cause an unbalanced policy.

you can have every car on hydrogen/battery by 2030, every Watt of power on Nuclear/Renewables by 2060

Also:
Nuclear power/solar/wind, might reduce emissions, but they don't do much to relive us of our dependence on oil, and our weakness to price fluctuations... we don't generate much electricity from oil.

if you powered transport on electric based energy you would need increased power generation

 

[cipher6]

we will havr to tell them they cant, and eevery wasted day will worsen it for them

Good luck with that...
2009 United Nations Climate Change Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean to switch energy useyou can have every car on hydrogen/battery by 2030, every Watt of power on Nuclear/Renewables by 2060

I think its a little far fetched. There isn't even viable technology available yet.

Hydrogen? You'd first have to develop a hydrogen engine that can be cheaply mass produced so people can actually afford the cars. Then you'd have to replace every gas station in the country with hydrogen... and god forbid some fool forgets to put out his cigarette while filling up. Who is going to cover that cost? Sure you can pass a law, that car companies and filling stations have to do it, but they will just pass that cost right on to you and me.

Then after all that, you've still got to get every car in the country replaced with a brand new, probably more expensive, hydrogen car. Not everyone can even afford a band new car, which is why you see so many used car lots, but that won't be an option when switching, so who covers that cost?... all in under 20 years?

Batteries? They can't even make one that will run my phone for longer than 12 hours, so again, you'd first have to develop a car batter that actually works, and can be quickly charged. What happens when your diving to grandma's a few states over and run out of charge? Park overnight to fill it up? electricity consumption would go through the roof, so you better be beefing up your grid and energy generation as well... Where are you going to locate those recharge stations? Everyone park at the gas station over night? What would that do to transportation? How long can an 18 wheeler hauling tons of food or construction supplies run on battery before it has to charge for 8-10 hours?

if you powered transport on electric based energy you would need increased power generation

Agreed, but I don't think we will be there in 20 short years. We should be focusing on baby steps, and increasing domestic production in the short term to protect against price fluctuations.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Good luck with that...
2009 United Nations Climate Change Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

I would blame a lot of their scepticism on the US - despite being the worst, they gave dismal targets... not only that, but a change of government and its back to status quo

These governments feel that why should they slow their development so the West can take it easy on targets

However India and China are suffering some major climatic changes - much of which would have some roots in AGW.. soon their should be decent public support

 

[ElasticNinja]

I think its a little far fetched. There isn't even viable technology available yet.

Hydrogen? You'd first have to develop a hydrogen engine that can be cheaply mass produced so people can actually afford the cars. Then you'd have to replace every gas station in the country with hydrogen... and god forbid some fool forgets to put out his cigarette while filling up. Who is going to cover that cost? Sure you can pass a law, that car companies and filling stations have to do it, but they will just pass that cost right on to you and me.

mass production

Then after all that, you've still got to get every car in the country replaced with a brand new, probably more expensive, hydrogen car. Not everyone can even afford a band new car, which is why you see so many used car lots, but that won't be an option when switching, so who covers that cost?... all in under 20 years?

people change cars generally every few years... you can base tax bands on emissions

Batteries? They can't even make one that will run my phone for longer than 12 hours, so again, you'd first have to develop a car batter that actually works, and can be quickly charged. What happens when your diving to grandma's a few states over and run out of charge? Park overnight to fill it up? electricity consumption would go through the roof, so you better be beefing up your grid and energy generation as well... Where are you going to locate those recharge stations? Everyone park at the gas station over night? What would that do to transportation? How long can an 18 wheeler hauling tons of food or construction supplies run on battery before it has to charge for 8-10 hours?

massive investment is ongoing.. trucks would be more suited to hydrogen

Agreed, but I don't think we will be there in 20 short years. We should be focusing on baby steps, and increasing domestic production in the short term to protect against price fluctuations.

its too late for baby steps, we had 25+ years for that

 

[cipher6]

mass production

Mass production isn't magic. You have to first develop a hydrogen engine that CAN be mass produced. Prototypes are just the first step. Then you have to retool all the factories, parts suppliers, software etc to be able to mass produce anything. Who is gonna pay for all that? I think maybe in 20 years we could have that in place, and start rolling out alt. energy cars... but not have the whole fleet replaced.

No one has even determined if hydrogen is the best thing yet. Problem one, you get in a big wreck, you and everyone around you is vaporized.

And that doesn't address refueling. How many gas pumps are in the US? How much will it cost to replace all of them? Who is gonna pay for it?

people change cars generally every few years... you can base tax bands on emissions

Not everyone... I drive mine into the ground before picking up a new car payment. and again not everyone can afford a brand new car... are tax payers going pick up the tab to replace people's 15 year old jalopies with brand new cars?

massive investment is ongoing.. trucks would be more suited to hydrogenits

Yeah, there is investment going on, and thats good, and we should let it run its course... not force something that isn't' ready and costs to much, out of nothing but fear of CO2.

too late for baby steps, we had 25+ years for that

Thats the unbalanced, emotionally driven thinking that leads to bad ideas with unintended consequences. Slow down, take a breath, its not the end of the world (no matter what Al Gore says.) Lets think methodically and logically about these things (as a nation.)

 

[ElasticNinja]

Mass production isn't magic. You have to first develop a hydrogen engine that CAN be mass produced. Prototypes are just the first step. Then you have to retool all the factories, parts suppliers, software etc to be able to mass produce anything. Who is gonna pay for all that? I think maybe in 20 years we could have that in place, and start rolling out alt. energy cars... but not have the whole fleet replaced.

capitilism , the corporations will if they wanna stay around

No one has even determined if hydrogen is the best thing yet. Problem one, you get in a big wreck, you and everyone around you is vaporized.

sounds like petrol

And that doesn't address refueling. How many gas pumps are in the US? How much will it cost to replace all of them? Who is gonna pay for it ?

the stations can

Not everyone... I drive mine into the ground before picking up a new car payment. and again not everyone can afford a brand new car... are tax payers going pick up the tab to replace people's 15 year old jalopies with brand new cars?

scrappage schemes

Yeah, there is investment going on, and thats good, and we should let it run its course... not force something that isn't' ready and costs to much, out of nothing but fear of CO2.

pumping money in works.. you get more waste, but its only option

Thats the unbalanced, emotionally driven thinking that leads to bad ideas with unintended consequences. Slow down, take a breath, its not the end of the world (no matter what Al Gore says.) Lets think methodically and logically about these things (as a nation.)

but clearly (as a nation) it seems you cant think methodically and logically about this... the people are not always right

 

[lordofthereef]

I think some of the discussion about alternative energies (namely hydrogen) seems to be leaning towards the fact that people think that this is going to (for some reason) HAVE to be a rapid (almost overnight) change. There is no reason why hyrdogen, petrol, and deisel fuled cars can't be on the road with one another for dozens and dozens of years. If we did move to hydrogen, I don't see there being a ban on "fossil fuel" cars. Think of it like you do the seat belts laws. Cars that were built before seat belts were required can still be legally operated to this day. I don't see why this CAN'T be done with hydrogen fueled cars. Run your petrol/diesel cars until they run no more, but all that can be manufactured must be hydrogen. To be frank, changes probably wouldn't even be THAT fast. Likely changes would start with car manufacturers having to make a certain percentage of their cars be hydrogen vehicles. This percentage would rise slowly every couple of years until the goal of 100% is reached.

FWIW I am not necessarily advocated hydrogen fuel. If you wish, insert "alternative fuel" in anyplace you see me write hydrogen. I only used hydrogen since that seems to be the hot topic.

Also, finding alternative ways to gather and even produce petrol and diesel sound great. I personally am in no way against that. That said, I think NOTHING is a sure thing just yet other than what we have in reserves, so it's certainly not a bad idea to spend time and money researching various technologies.

I, for one, would be an advocate for alternative energies simply because we, as a nation, could hopefully stop relying on other nations for this energy as we may be able to produce much or all of it right here in the good old USA. This would keep the money flow within our own borders as well as produce many jobs.

 

[cipher6]

capitilism , the corporations will if they wanna stay around

Yes! That means there has to be a demand before the investment is spent. Thats the way to do it, not government mandates... and that certainly will not get every car replaced in 20 years.

Demand will not be at large levels, that spur investment in massive mass production until prices come down... considering a viable engine, that people can afford, isn't even developed yet, its a ways away.

Look at the Volt. Consumer Reports even said, from a financial standpoint, its not worth it. The increased price of the car isn't offset by the savings.

sounds like petrol

Hydrogen is MUCH more volitile than gasoline. Worst a gas tank does on impact is leak and start a fire... not a massive explosion... unless your living in movie land.

the stations can

And why would they if the investment doesn't pay off?

scrappage schemes

cause cash for clunkers worked so well?

pumping money in works.. you get more waste, but its only option

who's money?

but clearly (as a nation) it seems you cant think methodically and logically about this... the people are not always right

I like to think thats what I'm doing... replacing every car in the nation, with a yet to be designed car, that would require a major overhaul of the entire production and refueling infrastructure in 20 years sounds a bit hasty to me.

I agree with your first comment, let the free market work it out... but then you can't force your 20 year timeline.

 

[Snedd]

Looks like there may be life in the petrol engine yet:

New engine sends shock waves through auto industry

Quote: "could greatly improve the efficiency of gas-electric hybrid automobiles and potentially decrease auto emissions up to 90 percent when compared with conventional combustion engines."

 

[adi19956]

oh get a life EU. UKIP FTW (and Tory)

 

[FreakyLocz14]

This is why I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free to drive even in Manhattan, New York.

 

[ElasticNinja]

This is why I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free to drive even in Manhattan, New York.

read the article: banning fossil fuel powered cars

oh get a life EU. UKIP FTW (and Tory)

sarcasm?

 

[adi19956]

sarcasm?

yeah... I'd never actually vote UKIP, but they are annoying sometimes Butter mountains stage a comeback as farmers struggle to make ends meet - Times Online
our bloody tax money spent buying things we don't need

 

[ElasticNinja]

yeah... I'd never actually vote UKIP, but they are annoying sometimes Butter mountains stage a comeback as farmers struggle to make ends meet - Times Online
our bloody tax money spent buying things we don't need

CAP really needs reform
Its amazing to think that Europe was malnourished for a good 10-15 years after the war and as soon as CAP came to be we were producing a surplus within years

The problem now is that CAP is far from the only Rural grant

I'm not sure a whole lot can be done about oversupply ATM, tho certainly in Ireland a lot of land could be turned to Permanent Forestry

I don't like how the EU budget is increasing this year, apart from the Foreign Affairs role, what new responsibilities do they have?
Of course due to the scaling system the new states are getting more year on year, but I find it amazing that they can't cutback

Of course most countries get net funds out of the EU money pool so nothing will happen

I'd like to see direct EU taxes - this would be fairer for all

 

[adi19956]

CAP really needs reform
Its amazing to think that Europe was malnourished for a good 10-15 years after the war and as soon as CAP came to be we were producing a surplus within years

The problem now is that CAP is far from the only Rural grant

I'm not sure a whole lot can be done about oversupply ATM, tho certainly in Ireland a lot of land could be turned to Permanent Forestry

I don't like how the EU budget is increasing this year, apart from the Foreign Affairs role, what new responsibilities do they have?
Of course due to the scaling system the new states are getting more year on year, but I find it amazing that they can't cutback

Of course most countries get net funds out of the EU money pool so nothing will happen

I'd like to see direct EU taxes - this would be fairer for all

I don't see how it's fair that we have far too much food and in parts of Africa, they have none. Like when Ethiopia had a huugggee famine and we had a boom crop in Europe, it's not that far to ship it

 

[ElasticNinja]

I don't see how it's fair that we have far too much food and in parts of Africa, they have none. Like when Ethiopia had a huugggee famine and we had a boom crop in Europe, it's not that far to ship it

Im pretty sure they did ship some
However some was shipped to places without major food issues, causing big problems for local farmers (which butter will you take, free EU butter or cheap local butter?)

 

[Isthmus]

The electricity to fill your battery has to come from somewhere.

As do the lubricants in the vehicle and the plastics used to build most of the non metallic parts of the vehicle (tires, interiors, switch gear, etc.)

Oil is not going anywhere any time soon, even if its use as a source of fuel is curbed or replaced.

What I do see happening though are regular market prices rising to such a level as to make, certain types of transportation simply inneffective. the days when each family can have a private car for every member of driving age, might come to an end. I see a time in which a single small energy efficient family car might be at the center of the home's transportation needs, while even smaller vehicles (such as motorcycles or variants therof), will be used for commuting needs. I think you'll see a tremendous rise in public transportation, people living closer to work and markets, as well as human powered transportation. Heck you already see a lot of this in many cities across europe and in Asia.

 

[adi19956]

 

[lordofthereef]

One thing I can't quite understand is why Europe has so many fuel efficient vehicle options compared to the US. They have a plethora of diesel 4 doors that will do 60-70 mpg. The best I found here is about 45mpg diesel and 40 mpg petrol.

 

[Bob Maxey]

One thing I can't quite understand is why Europe has so many fuel efficient vehicle options compared to the US. They have a plethora of diesel 4 doors that will do 60-70 mpg. The best I found here is about 45mpg diesel and 40 mpg petrol.

Not sure. Do you know for a fact this is true? Just asking.

Perhaps they have mandates, rules, or laws that make the cost too high. Or perhaps their "car culture" is different than ours and not everyone over there wants (or needs) a car, or perhaps it has to do with the cost of petrol or their train systems are better, or people can't afford to be three or four car households.

I just visited my brother. He has a wife and two kids. He just bought a new car, but he owns a vintage pickup truck, a Land Rover, a motorcycle and a vintage car in storage; his wife has a new car, both kids each have a new car. I doubt he is typical. I know people with the same car to human ratio but with three and four kids, each with cars.