• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

Healthcare Reform - Obama

They do.. it is called serving your country... Problem is doctors who just want to go straight to private practice and make large amounts of money...

Same reason i work for the state government of florida.. They are putting me thru graduate school (my tuition is waived), but i work for the government and thus earn a lower income then my private industry counterpart (they earn about 3x the amount i do)...

But why should someone potentially put thier life on the line for schoolm to me that can mbe at a much higher cost than money. and it is a commonly known fact that most doctors dont even make a profit from thier industry until thier 40s and beyond.
 
What do you think of this:

"This is also an income shift. It's a shift, it's a leveling to help lower income Americans. Too often in the last couple of three years, the maldistribution of income in America has gone up way too much. The wealthier are getting way, way too wealthy. Wages have not kept up with the increased income of the highest income Americans. This legislation (healthcare) will have the effect of addressing that maldistribution income in America, because health care is now a right for all Americans and because health care is now affordable for all Americans."

How you feel about this reveals your view. Try not to think about who said this, but just how it makes you feel..

What do you think?
Except WHO said this is very important...why should we ignore it? You also make a huge logic leap in your assumption that what he said is true.
 
Except WHO said this is very important...why should we ignore it?

I think what he's asking us all to do is to look at the content of the quote for what it is, without letting our opinion of the person that said it color our response, as we do when someone posts something from Fox, WP, NYT, etc.
 
I think what he's asking us all to do is to look at the content of the quote for what it is, without letting our opinion of the person that said it color our response, as we do when someone posts something from Fox, WP, NYT, etc.
Yeah I understand what he is trying to get at, but using that quote without context as a way to define someones view on the health insurance bill is, IMO, faulty logic.
 
Yeah I understand what he is trying to get at, but using that quote without context as a way to define someones view on the health insurance bill is, IMO, faulty logic.

Meh. Maybe so, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Plus, it took me all of 3 seconds to ID the speaker using The Google. :D
 
Have to admit, this made me laugh -- one of the actual shirt designs the White House is considering in commemoration of passing health reform.

KiN3GBcBAxktcGZqcyN3TARLUUsZUQpBPV1dDVdAUBQEAlMbCRQB


As a lover and frequent user of profanity, I love this. Sure to get the FOTF folks whipped into a lather, though... :D
 
Yeah I understand what he is trying to get at, but using that quote without context as a way to define someones view on the health insurance bill is, IMO, faulty logic.

You also make a huge logic leap in your assumption that what he said is true.


I made NO assumptions, OTHER than that how one "feels" about that statement reveals much about their view on the subject. And I think that assumption is a pretty safe bet.

I said NOTHING about it being 'true.'

You said, "...I understand what he (ME) is trying to get at..."

Then why didn't you just share how you 'feel' about the statement this person made if you knew 'what I was getting at?' What do you 'think' about the concept he is stating?

The person who made that statement (a US Senator) is giving away his 'perception' of the situation ("The wealthier are getting way, way too wealthy"). You need MORE CONTEXT to make a statement about THAT?

I would say that (needing more context), in and of itself, reveals a little about your view, and your convictions.. And yes, that would be an assumption on my part.. (and that is an assumption I hope I am wrong about) :p

One more thing:
Toasty said: "I think what he's asking us all to do is to look at the content of the quote for what it is, without letting our opinion of the person that said it color our response,.."

BINGO
Thanks Toasty.. :)
 
What prescriptions are written in latin?!?

As far as I know all of them. When I breifly studied pharmacy, I had to learn quite a bit of latin. Although I don't remember it much anymore, haven't used it in years.
 
Read the damn article instead of just seeing it came from the washingtonpost.. It isn't an opinion piece or a left slanted view about how racists your side is or anything like that... It is a piece about state vs federal government...

Herein lies the problem. There were how many drafts of the HC bill before we finally got enough votes for it. It's kinda hard for me to work a full time job and a part time job AND read the bills being voted on and and and....I'll admit I skimmed the article...but after re-reading it I came to the same conclusion. It's trying to associate fighting the bill with pro-segregation sentiment.
That being said it's sad that I'm working the way I am and others are doing jack squat and getting the same benefits I work my butt off for...PERIOD. THe public option was taken out..but guess what senator from Virginia I believe is already trying to add it in...guess that slipped past every one. The problem with this is foot-in-the-door policies. 5 pages in this thread and people do not see this yet? It's largely irrelevant whats in the bill but the public see this as a catalyst that's why there's a flurry of discussion about it.

Either way anyone that is pro HC bill of 2010 will not step forward and support it in 2050 and that's not prophesy it's history repeating itself.

For the record: I pay 22% income tax as of March 2010. This includes state tax for Iowa (not the member-I actually live there).
 
Herein lies the problem. There were how many drafts of the HC bill before we finally got enough votes for it. It's kinda hard for me to work a full time job and a part time job AND read the bills being voted on and and and....I'll admit I skimmed the article...but after re-reading it I came to the same conclusion. It's trying to associate fighting the bill with pro-segregation sentiment.
That being said it's sad that I'm working the way I am and others are doing jack squat and getting the same benefits I work my butt off for...PERIOD. THe public option was taken out..but guess what senator from Virginia I believe is already trying to add it in...guess that slipped past every one. The problem with this is foot-in-the-door policies. 5 pages in this thread and people do not see this yet? It's largely irrelevant whats in the bill but the public see this as a catalyst that's why there's a flurry of discussion about it.

Either way anyone that is pro HC bill of 2010 will not step forward and support it in 2050 and that's not prophesy it's history repeating itself.

For the record: I pay 22% income tax as of March 2010. This includes state tax for Iowa (not the member-I actually live there).

Dammit why don't you pay taxes to me. Rawr.

Anyway, I 100% agree with your post. I do work in a family business, and its slow season, so yeah not more than 50 hours a week right now. But when we get busy (9 months out of the year) I have little or no time to myself, and I practically live in our warehouse/store. We even have a condo upstairs just for that. There's times we get so freakin busy we really can't go home. And we can't afford to hire more people for only one or two months of madness. But like crude said, i , and my family work our buts off. Why should some lazy welfare riding degenerate get what I get?
 
From Crude:
THe public option was taken out..but guess what senator from Virginia I believe is already trying to add it in...
. The problem with this is foot-in-the-door policies.
It's largely irrelevant whats in the bill
Yes. The RELEVANT part that some people are missing here is the CRITICAL importance of the POWER GRAB by a government..

More from CRUDE:
"...it's sad that I'm working the way I am and others are doing jack squat and getting the same benefits I work my butt off for...PERIOD."
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
---Attributed to Alexis DeTocqueville

(which is why the founders created a REPUBLIC, not a democracy)

At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, Ben Franklin was asked at the end of the deliberations: "Well, what do we have?
His reply: "A republic Madam, if you can keep it"

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
 
I made NO assumptions, OTHER than that how one "feels" about that statement reveals much about their view on the subject. And I think that assumption is a pretty safe bet.

I said NOTHING about it being 'true.'

You said, "...I understand what he (ME) is trying to get at..."

Then why didn't you just share how you 'feel' about the statement this person made if you knew 'what I was getting at?' What do you 'think' about the concept he is stating?
I feel the statement is incorrect and has no inherent relationship to the health care law as it stands. No matter who said.

The person who made that statement (a US Senator) is giving away his 'perception' of the situation ("The wealthier are getting way, way too wealthy"). You need MORE CONTEXT to make a statement about THAT?

I would say that (needing more context), in and of itself, reveals a little about your view, and your convictions.. And yes, that would be an assumption on my part.. (and that is an assumption I hope I am wrong about) :p
My point about the context of the quote is that the context and the person who said the quote is imortant because of this senator's history and "reputation" so to speak. Especially if you listen or watch the footage of when the quote was taken. ;)
 
...the related claims of "government take-over of health care," though, it isn't in there, ...

Let's see, you have to buy insurance, the insurance companies can only offer the policies the government says they can, DHS or whoever it is can change the rules at any time.

Just exactly what about that isn't government take over? When you're only free to do what someone else allows you to do, you aren't free at all.

My biggest gripe with this bill is the "civilian defense force". That's just scary any way you look at it.
 
Let's see, you have to buy insurance,
You don't have to buy it. If you don't you will have to pay a tax which will be used to help offset the cost of all the other people that do not have insurance that take advantage of the system and drive up the costs for people that have health coverage.

the insurance companies can only offer the policies the government says they can, DHS or whoever it is can change the rules at any time.
No, the insurance companies can offer what ever plans they want as long as they adhear to the regulations laid out by this law. The rules can't just be changed anytime, the law would need to be changed.

Just exactly what about that isn't government take over? When you're only free to do what someone else allows you to do, you aren't free at all.
Its called regulation...not take over. Just like a bunch of other industries the government regulates but does not run.

My biggest gripe with this bill is the "civilian defense force". That's just scary any way you look at it.
I suggest you do a bit more research on exactly what is in the health insurance law. There is nothing in the law about a "civilan defense force". There is however, mention of the Ready Reserve Corp. Which is something that has been around for awhile and all that the health care law does make some revisions to the some of the existing policies.
 
You don't have to buy it. If you don't you will have to pay a tax which will be used to help offset the cost of all the other people that do not have insurance that take advantage of the system and drive up the costs for people that have health coverage.

No, the insurance companies can offer what ever plans they want as long as they adhear to the regulations laid out by this law. The rules can't just be changed anytime, the law would need to be changed.

Its called regulation...not take over. Just like a bunch of other industries the government regulates but does not run.

I suggest you do a bit more research on exactly what is in the health insurance law. There is nothing in the law about a "civilan defense force". There is however, mention of the Ready Reserve Corp. Which is something that has been around for awhile and all that the health care law does make some revisions to the some of the existing policies.

Yeah, and you could get the Model T in whatever color you wanted...as long as it was black. Authoritarianism could be argued as simply regulation as well. And when it's regulated that I *have* to buy a policy that includes coverages I don't want, don't need, and can never use, you are beyond "regulation".
 
What bugs me most about this whole thing is that it ignores the core problem.

It is NOT a problem that some people don't have health insurance.
The problem is that health care costs too much.

When I was young, my family had hospitalization coverage. Not doctor coverage. Not medicine coverage. Not lab test coverage. Just hospital.

That made sense. Hospital care was (and is) expensive. But the other stuff was not. But in the intervening five decades, all of these medical costs have risen FAR out of proportion to everything else.

Here's how ...

In 1956, my first doctor's visit cost $2. (I know this because my father kept papers of all sorts ... forever. Why? I don't know. But I uncovered this $2 receipt after he died.) Take that $2, multiply it by the CPI from 1956 to the present, and you'd expect a doctor visit today to cost $16-$18. But does it? No. Doctors come in at $100 minimum, and often twice that. That's the problem.

Another example of my father's paper hoarding: When my brother was born in 1957, the hospital delivery/care cost $140. Imagine that! In today's money, that's $1100-$1200. I don't know what today's price tag would be. But when my daughters were born in the mid 1980s, the price was $5000 each. Surely it's $8000 or $10000 today? Maybe more. That's the problem.

So costs have skyrocketed beyond reason. If automobile prices had jumped as much during this time, today's $20,000 average sedan would instead cost well over $100,000. Today's $2-$3 loaf of bread would instead be $15 or so. Outrageous. Well, not really ... it's lucky for us that cars and bread did NOT jump like that.

Anyway, the problem is cost. Why has medicine grown so expensive? Litigation has been blamed. But I wonder if medical insurance is the real problem. Insurance is just a third party inserted into the game for profit. Whatever profits the insurers take home does not improve my medical care. It's just another profit-mouth to feed.

Also I wonder how much more medical care (necessary or otherwise) we make use of because it's so cheap (if you have insurance). If I had to pay $100 for a doctor visit to treat a hangnail, I'd think twice. But if I need only pay a small co-pay, I'd go. (Okay, maybe a hangnail would not be sufficient cause. But surely we run to the doctor more often than we would otherwise.) So maybe the fix would be to FORBID health insurance. Just outlaw it altogether. (Okay, I'll back away from that extreme. But as a thought experiment, I think it's a useful tool. I really think medical costs would be lower if people didn't have comprehensive coverage.)

So what's to be done about this? For all the rhetoric surrounding this boondoggle bill, I've not seen mention of any effort to cut the unit cost of any health care procedures. (Or did I miss the part where the bill requires $100 doctors to cut their price to $20, and hospitals to cut their $10,000 surgery to $2000?)

Lacking that, this bill is just another Robin Hood adventure. Steal from the rich and give to the poor. (That doesn't work. And now is a particularly bad time to try. Raise the operating costs that a business must endure, and they'll just ship the work overseas. Now, the greeter job at Wal Mart can't be exported in this way, though, can it? So we'll just export the skilled labor jobs to China, and keep the low-skill, low-wage jobs here, right? Great plan!)

This administration (both the President and the Congress) would have served us better by advancing other critical needs. Kennedy launched a space program to counter the Cold War threats (with the moon landing prestige used as a public cover). The fallout was a boon in new technologies, huge new industries, jobs jobs and more jobs, and "fallout" benefits that continue to this day.

I think this administration should have resurrected the space-program thinking ... and applied it to today's needs. We need new energy sources that will cut/eliminate emissions and reduce dependence on foreign oil. The task is large, risky, and expensive ... just as the space program was. Private ventures tremble at such risk, preferring short-term wins over long-term solutions. Instead, I think our government could step in and do it, producing new technologies, solving problems. And creating jobs ... American jobs ... good jobs that (unlike Wal Mart jobs) would include health care as part of the package. Imagine that ... EARNED health care.
 
when i watched Michaels Moores SickO it showed that the drug companies hold the power to their pricing and can charge what they want and i agree pricing has gone way up and it means people are left behind
 
I think this administration should have resurrected the space-program thinking ... and applied it to today's needs. We need new energy sources that will cut/eliminate emissions and reduce dependence on foreign oil. The task is large, risky, and expensive ... just as the space program was. Private ventures tremble at such risk, preferring short-term wins over long-term solutions. Instead, I think our government could step in and do it, producing new technologies, solving problems. And creating jobs ... American jobs ... good jobs that (unlike Wal Mart jobs) would include health care as part of the package. Imagine that ... EARNED health care.

They should have, and still can. We already have non-fossil alternatives, and I would not call it risky, however it will indeed be a massive and incredibly expensive undertaking. Regardless, it has to and can be done. It will take trillions, but will be able to shift us away from foreign and domestic fossil energy and create sustainable jobs as mentioned.

For one, it has to be heavily subsidized to make it economical. Over time, oil and coal subsidies should be shifted towards the renewables to further encourage the shift. We have the technology and the resources, it's just a matter of spending the money to spur the markets. The investment opportunities are endless.

Consider a cap-and-trade or carbon tax to help finance. It will initially hurt cost wise, but will be deter emissions and increase the economic viability of a clean energy firm or investment.

And not to hijack the thread or post, health care is the other issue where deficit spending is necessary for real economic growth as well the the moral way forward. No one really wants to hear it, but health care, have only two real options. You can either completely publicize the insurance aspect, or subsidize the crap out of it to reduce costs, while raising taxes to do it.

The for-profit health insurance system is obviously unsustainable and bankrupting the country. Paying higher taxes to support and reform medicare is one approach to real health care reform.

Take the burden from the individual and employers. The taxes needed to pay for it will be offset by the decrease of household expenditures and firm operating costs. The increase in real income will either of course be saved or spent, which will result in economic growth and tax reciepts. Firms will be able to increase their retained earnings, investments, dividends, employee raises, options, hiring, product/service costs, etc.

Spread the insurance risk by expanding medicare so everyone pays in. The will also have to be supported by some education reform to encourage medical students into family practice and other high demand docs. This will help alleviate the use of hospitals for primary care and prevent the current high risk people from bankruptcy, which of course is never good for the economy. Also tort reform should be considered although still a fraction of health care costs.

Both will take a immense amount of money, but is a way to address long-run solvency.
 
when i watched Michaels Moores SickO it showed that the drug companies hold the power to their pricing and can charge what they want and i agree pricing has gone way up and it means people are left behind
Except that isn't entirely true. There are TONS of cost associated with bringing a drug to market. On top of that you have the sue happy American culture. On top of that you have insurance companies and managed market care inflating the price even more, etc...

By saying the pharma companies can charge what they want isn't true...they charge what they need to to stay viable.
 
Crude
So say what you say is true, that it is illegal to turn down treatment for anyone, then we are already paying for the health care of people who do not have it, but at what cost?

It costs more to treat a person who is very ill because he didn't have health care and didn't seek medical attention until he had to. So he goes to the emergency room much sicker than he would have been if he had just been provided regular visits to a clinic.

It makes more sense to treat people, who you say are getting treatment anyway, before they get deathly ill.

You know how expensive a visit to the emergency room is, I'm sure.

Now the other way to treat people who need medical care and don't have insurance is to change the law and deny them treatment if they can't pay.

Oh, by the way, many of you say there will be rationing; well excuse me but don't look, there already is rationing. If you can afford expensive treatments you get them. If you can't, you don't. Is that rationing? i think so.

Pregnant women are sent home before their doctors want to release them.

Ever heard of out patient surgery. Procedures which were never outpatient before are now that way.

I have a personal experience. My son, when he was 15, had open heart surgery to repair a hole in his heart. He had a VSD, ventricular septal defect and a patent ductor arteriosis. I remeber those terms because I lived with them from the time he was 3 years old, when he was first diagnosed. The doctors were great, the surgery was successful, only the doctors were forced to release him before they wanted to. We took him home and he went to church with my wife that Sunday where he collapsed. He had to be taken back to the Charlotte Medical Center and the fluid around his heart had to be drained. He spent an addtional 5 days in the hospital because his care had been rationed. The cost to the hospital and the insurance company was much greater than it would have been.
 
Anyway, the problem is cost. Why has medicine grown so expensive? Litigation has been blamed. But I wonder if medical insurance is the real problem. Insurance is just a third party inserted into the game for profit. Whatever profits the insurers take home does not improve my medical care. It's just another profit-mouth to feed.

This.
 
Crude
So say what you say is true, that it is illegal to turn down treatment for anyone, then we are already paying for the health care of people who do not have it, but at what cost?
This is not true. It is illegal for an emergency department to turn anyone away. All other providers can turn them away. The ED can discharge them as soon as they are healthy enough to be discharged.
It costs more to treat a person who is very ill because he didn't have health care and didn't seek medical attention until he had to. So he goes to the emergency room much sicker than he would have been if he had just been provided regular visits to a clinic.
This is true and untrue at the same time. It heavily depends on the condition, etc.
It makes more sense to treat people, who you say are getting treatment anyway, before they get deathly ill.

You know how expensive a visit to the emergency room is, I'm sure.

Now the other way to treat people who need medical care and don't have insurance is to change the law and deny them treatment if they can't pay.
All providers except for emergency departments can deny treatment to individuals. No one is required to be seen outside of the ER.
Oh, by the way, many of you say there will be rationing; well excuse me but don't look, there already is rationing. If you can afford expensive treatments you get them. If you can't, you don't. Is that rationing? i think so.
That's not rationing. No one is saying that they can only receive x amount of care.
Pregnant women are sent home before their doctors want to release them.
Generally due to insurance company and hospital policy.
Ever heard of out patient surgery. Procedures which were never outpatient before are now that way.

I have a personal experience. My son, when he was 15, had open heart surgery to repair a hole in his heart. He had a VSD, ventricular septal defect and a patent ductor arteriosis. I remeber those terms because I lived with them from the time he was 3 years old, when he was first diagnosed. The doctors were great, the surgery was successful, only the doctors were forced to release him before they wanted to. We took him home and he went to church with my wife that Sunday where he collapsed. He had to be taken back to the Charlotte Medical Center and the fluid around his heart had to be drained. He spent an addtional 5 days in the hospital because his care had been rationed. The cost to the hospital and the insurance company was much greater than it would have been.
Do you know what the definition of outpatient surgery is? If the doctors, wanted to keep him overnight, they shouldn't have either:
a) performed it as an outpatient surgery, or
b) should have admitted him to an inpatient setting following the surgery.
 
bbrosen
In case you hadn't noticed, all drivers are required to have car insurance. Now if you are implying that non-drivers have car insurance,,,, nah, you wouldn't imply that would you.

As far as liberals giving from their own pockets to help others, I could say the same thing for the born again right. Go to church on Sunday, pray to Jesus and then to heck with those in need. Slightly hypocritical don't you think.

Liberals aren't holering about any tax increase which would extend health coverage to those who have not.

I bet your tune would change if you were the one that required the health care coverage.
 
So say what you say is true, that it is illegal to turn down treatment for anyone, then we are already paying for the health care of people who do not have it, but at what cost?

MY point exactly. They are not paying in so it's costing taxpayers. Why do people not understand that this healthcare bill was lobbies for heavily by insurance companies? It has very little to do with actual healthcare costs. Besides when imperfections in the current bill come to light the amendments will be passed without much public knowledge as the program grows and grows. Or do you think anything the halfrican has done isn't going to need fixed in the next 5 years?


Ever heard of out patient surgery. Procedures which were never outpatient before are now that way.

I have a personal experience. My son, when he was 15, had open heart surgery to repair a hole in his heart. He had a VSD, ventricular septal defect and a patent ductor arteriosis. I remeber those terms because I lived with them from the time he was 3 years old, when he was first diagnosed. The doctors were great, the surgery was successful, only the doctors were forced to release him before they wanted to. We took him home and he went to church with my wife that Sunday where he collapsed. He had to be taken back to the Charlotte Medical Center and the fluid around his heart had to be drained. He spent an addtional 5 days in the hospital because his care had been rationed. The cost to the hospital and the insurance company was much greater than it would have been.

You got lucky that he received treatment right away when complications arose. I don't see how a doctor is "forced" to let anyone go home. They make the to keep people for observation if they feel it is necessary.
The flip side of that is that my neighbors wife bleed to death internally after a car accident at night while she waited for the on-call physician to arrive at the hospital.
Oh this was in the 90's in Europe.
 
Back
Top Bottom