Meego Discussion (From HTC One X thread)

[Crashdamage]

Nokia didn't need WP7 or Android. Nokia already had Maemo which was far superior to WP7 and Android. They just needed to keep developing it and trash Symbian. Microsoft $$$ put a stop to that. M$ needed Nokia's market share to make WP7 a player and Nokia couldn't resist billions in M$ cash.

Too bad...by now Maemo (or Meego) could've made the Ubuntu/Android thing an unnecessary kludge.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Nokia didn't need WP7 or Android. Nokia already had Maemo which was far superior to WP7 and Android. They just needed to keep developing it and trash Symbian. Microsoft $$$ put a stop to that. M$ needed Nokia's market share to make WP7 a player and Nokia couldn't resist billions in M$ cash.

Too bad...by now Maemo (or Meego) could've made the Ubuntu/Android thing an unnecessary kludge.

No one was interested in Meego. It had no developer support whatsoever. Nokia doesn't have the muscle in the market to attract developers. Meego was not going anywhere.

 

[chanchan05]

No one was interested in Meego. It had no developer support whatsoever. Nokia doesn't have the muscle in the market to attract developers. Meego was not going anywhere.

That's what you think. Meego being based on a Linux kernel supporting Qt actually could support both Symbian and Android apps, all it needs is the proper shell. Qt apps are supported natively with Alien Davlik being an optional add on which allows it to run apk files. Also, since it can run Qt apps, PC program developers could easily port desktop Qt apps onto the phone system provided there was enough computing power. Furthermore, you can run desktop PC apps on MeeGo, there was an experimental port a long while ago on Maemo where they played warcraft II PC version and a partial CS port on the phone if I remember correctly.

I was there in the Nokia boards when the outrage broke over dumping Meego just like that happened. A lot of current Android, iPhone or WP7 developers were former Symbian/Qt devs enraged by Nokia with that decision. Windows managed to salvage Palm OS developers for their own, while other former Symbian developers decided to trust Nokia and stick to WP7.

Maemo/Meego had its own separate forum which was almost as active as a separate forum for Symbian. Maemo and MeeGo had a huge following but it wasn't embraced by the mainstream, developers loved the phone though.

 

[chanchan05]

Nokia didn't need WP7 or Android. Nokia already had Maemo which was far superior to WP7 and Android. They just needed to keep developing it and trash Symbian. Microsoft $$$ put a stop to that. M$ needed Nokia's market share to make WP7 a player and Nokia couldn't resist billions in M$ cash.

Too bad...by now Maemo (or Meego) could've made the Ubuntu/Android thing an unnecessary kludge.

I would have preferred MeeGo as well but they trashed it. So I was saying why did they pic WP7 over Android. But then, I'm actually looking at WP7 if they ever acquire enough developers and attention to go up against Android and Apple.

Just like the Pure View 808. That beast should have been on WP7 at least.

 

[Crashdamage]

No one was interested in Meego. It had no developer support whatsoever. Nokia doesn't have the muscle in the market to attract developers. Meego was not going anywhere.

Actually initially there was a LOT of interest in and developer support for Meego. Around then maemo.org/talk was busier than XDA. And at the time of the Intel/Nokia partnership on Meego, Nokia had a LOT of market muscle outside of the U.S. They still do.

Meego was potentially the most flexible, capable and powerful mobile OS of all. Open source, root-enabled, real full-stack Linux in your pocket. It could have - should have - become THE mobile OS. When announced It at least had a better shot at success than WP7. That's why M$ had to put a stop to it and effectively bought Nokia. M$ needed Nokia's worldwide market power to push WP7 and they knew they had to stop Meego before it was a market force.

There still has been nothing else like my N900 and probably never will be again. But...this is getting way off-topic...

 

[A.Nonymous]

Nokia has no muscle in the US though. No carrier relationships. No mind share. No market share. No one is interested in Symbian here in the US. It was going to come to market and run up against Android (already established and successful), iOS (already established and successful) and BlackBerry (already established but struggling in the consumer market). Also, if Nokia didn't partner with MS, you can be sure someone else would've. So you'd have Meego with it's lackluster app support going up against Android with all of it's OEMs, Apple with all of it's marketing muscle, BlackBerry with it's established enterprise prescence and MS with it's OEM and developer relationships. Nokia is going to go into that market with no OEM support, no consumer mind share at all and little developer support compared to Apple, Android and MS and be wildly successful? I think not. WP7 has a far better chance of success just because it has Microsoft backing it. MS has carrier relationships and developer relationships. It's got OEM relationships as well. I don't think WP7 will be successful in the long run just because they got to the market too late. Meego would've flopped in the States by now if it had come out at the same time WP7 did.

 

[Crashdamage]

Well, first ya gotta realize the U.S. is not the most important market in the world. And I'm not at all convinced anyone would have ultimately picked WP7 over Meego without the same kinda coup and bribery M$ pulled on Nokia.

Second, there were 3 main reasons Nokia went WP7...
1. M$ billions
2. To get back into the U.S.
3. To cut development costs

None of those have much to do with the potential power of Maemo/Meego. It had the goods, just needed polishing.

M$ is not totally stupid. They knew they had to nip Meego in the bud and would do or spend whatever it took to do so.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Well, first ya gotta realize the U.S. is not the most important market in the world. And I'm not at all convinced anyone would have ultimately picked WP7 over Meego without the same kinda coup and bribery M$ pulled on Nokia.

Second, there were 3 main reasons Nokia went WP7...
1. M$ billions
2. To get back into the U.S.
3. To cut development costs

None of those have much to do with the potential power of Maemo/Meego. It had the goods, just needed polishing.

M$ is not totally stupid. They knew they had to nip Meego in the bud and would do or spend whatever it took to do so.

You really think that Nokia could bring an OS to the table with little dev support, no consumer mind share and no OEM relationships and even compete in the US with Apple, Android and BB? I think you are very, very mistaken. Nokia's best case scenario with Meego was that it would replace Symbian. It would become the OS that everyone outside of the US uses. Even that is shaky with Android making inroads in a lot of countries just because it runs on low end hardware. Nokia doesn't want to be just a low end smart phone maker. That's all they were ever going to be with Meego. Meego was not going to be a winner. WP7 has the potential to be one of the big 3 in the smart phone market since it has Microsoft behind it. As I've said before, I think MS is too late to the game, but the potential is still there.

 

[Crashdamage]

You're ignoring that Meego was open source, hosted by the Linux Foundation. It was not going to be dependent on Nokia alone. It scared M$ to death. Maybe it was 50/50 odds, but when Meego started it was early enough in the game I really think it had a chance. Now, you'd be right.

WinPhone is another matter. It's late, but far from too late. When Win8 is released the mobile landscape will change significantly. Radically.

M$ is a bulldog with bottomless pockets. They will do and spend whatever it takes to make WinPhone succeed. They did it with gaming with the Xbox, they're doing it in search with Bing and they'll do it with WinPhone and cloud services. The future of M$ depends on it.

 

[jerofld]

I split this topic from the HTC One X thread so that the conversation could continue here and not interfere with the HTC One X conversation.

 

[chanchan05]

You really think that Nokia could bring an OS to the table with little dev support, no consumer mind share and no OEM relationships and even compete in the US with Apple, Android and BB?

That's why the sided with MS in the first place. They wanted a way to get back to the US, but they were sinking in debt and losses at the time due to the costs of building an ecosystem and development of the OS.

However you are mistaken in the dev support area. Android's most exponential growth period in terms of developers and apps came AFTER the "burning platform announcement" by Nokia, sending their developers off to XDA in rage.

I think you are very, very mistaken. Nokia's best case scenario with Meego was that it would replace Symbian.

In truth, the US is hardly the largest market in the world, heck if Nokia could dominate the entire market outside US, it would be eating Android and Apple for breakfast. Remember than when Nokia was still dominating, it owned 50% of the entire smartphone market. It dropped from 60+% when Android and iOS started rolling, but that wasn't too big. They just loss the US share and some European shares. The biggest drop off came only when Nokia ditched MeeGo. The US was just the most visible market due to celebrities and movies and stuff. Nokia wanted to project its phones as hip and cool the way Android does.

It would become the OS that everyone outside of the US uses. Even that is shaky with Android making inroads in a lot of countries just because it runs on low end hardware. Nokia doesn't want to be just a low end smart phone maker. That's all they were ever going to be with Meego. Meego was not going to be a winner. WP7 has the potential to be one of the big 3 in the smart phone market since it has Microsoft behind it. As I've said before, I think MS is too late to the game, but the potential is still there.

Symbian could run better than Android on low end hardware. It's faster and smoother at that level, plus cheaper. So if given continued support Android will hardly be able to make too much inroads. My 5800 still works smoother than the low end Androids.

MS is a more prudent choice for Nokia not beause the OS was more powerful or had bigger potential. Its because MS already had the ecosystem, all it needed was the hardware vehicle that Nokia is.

 

[A.Nonymous]

You're ignoring that Meego was open source, hosted by the Linux Foundation. It was not going to be dependent on Nokia alone. It scared M$ to death. Maybe it was 50/50 odds, but when Meego started it was early enough in the game I really think it had a chance. Now, you'd be right.

WinPhone is another matter. It's late, but far from too late. When Win8 is released the mobile landscape will change significantly. Radically.

M$ is a bulldog with bottomless pockets. They will do and spend whatever it takes to make WinPhone succeed. They did it with gaming with the Xbox, they're doing it in search with Bing and they'll do it with WinPhone and cloud services. The future of M$ depends on it.

I disagree. The Linux Foundation has no pull with consumers. Consumers show up in stores and are presented with 5 options

1. iPhone backed by Apple
2. Android phone with Google logo on it
3. WP7 phone with Microsoft backing
4. BlackBerry which they've seen people using for business
5. Meego phone backed by the Linux foundation

They're not going to pick the Meego phone. The Linux foundation means nothing to them. Nokia has a reputation in the States for making cheap feature phones. I don't see how that phone is going to succeed in the US market at all. Now, could it replace Symbian in developing markets? Sure. I could see that as BB, iOS and WP7 devices tend to be too expensive for those users.

 

[Crashdamage]

You're talking as if Meego is still alive. I'm not saying that. It's dead for all practical purposes. But at the time it was announced it was supported by Intel, Nokia, several other companies and as I said was independently hosted by the Linux Foundation. It had developer support, Qt and lot of good apps already.

It was a desktop-class OS in your pocket. Crazy powerful. I really hated giving up using Maemo on my N900 and going back to Android for daily use.

Meego definetely had a real shot at success. Until M$ bought Nokia and killed it.

 

[A.Nonymous]

You're talking as if Meego is still alive. I'm not saying that. It's dead for all practical purposes. But at the time it was announced it was supported by Intel, Nokia, several other companies and as I said was independently hosted by the Linux Foundation. It had developer support, Qt and lot of good apps already.

It was a desktop-class OS in your pocket. Crazy powerful. I really hated giving up using Maemo on my N900 and going back to Android for daily use.

Meego definetely had a real shot at success. Until M$ bought Nokia and killed it.

It had no interest from consumers and no backing from any OEMs or carriers. At least not in the US. How is an OS with no backing from OEMs or carriers and little to no interest from consumers going to take off?

 

[chanchan05]

No backing from OEMS? Seriously?

MeeGo was built as a joint project between Nokia, Intel, Sony, Samsung and Motorola. And also, you don't need carrier support for an OS to have a shot when its still in the development stages: You have to build your OS first before trying to convince carriers to get it. Which is why your "carrier support" argument is invalid. You only need carrier support in the US. The world has been using smartphones a long time before the people in the US even knew about them.

MeeGo fell through when Nokia decided to drop it. Being the major developer, the others had no choice but to try a new OS of their own (Bada) or move on to Android. Sony only fully delved into Android after MeeGo development was officially scrapped.

 

[mikedt]

You're ignoring that Meego was open source, hosted by the Linux Foundation. It was not going to be dependent on Nokia alone. It scared M$ to death. Maybe it was 50/50 odds, but when Meego started it was early enough in the game I really think it had a chance. Now, you'd be right.

WinPhone is another matter. It's late, but far from too late. When Win8 is released the mobile landscape will change significantly. Radically.

M$ is a bulldog with bottomless pockets. They will do and spend whatever it takes to make WinPhone succeed.

Well apparently WinPhone has been around for nearly two years. but I've yet to actually see one. MS were making the Zune for five years, never saw one of them either.

They did it with gaming with the Xbox,

Cost them dearly though with all those red ring of death Xbox 360 failures.

they're doing it in search with Bing and they'll do it with WinPhone and cloud services. The future of M$ depends on it.

It does indeed. From what I see now, Windows on PCs is starting to go away in favour of tablets for many uses.

 

[Crashdamage]

Well apparently WinPhone has been around for nearly two years. but I've yet to actually see one. MS were making the Zune for five years, never saw one of them either.

You WILL see WinPhone make an impact but it will take time. After Win8 comes out things will change.
As for the Zune - why bother anymore? Phones have replaced the function of the Zune/iPod.

Cost them dearly though with all those red ring of death Xbox 360 failures.

They really didn't care. What mattered was succeeding, and they did, in spite of red rings and competitors. Now the profits are rolling in. That's a win.

From what I see now, Windows on PCs is starting to go away in favour of tablets for many uses.

Windows will still dominate desktops, especially for business, for many years to come, guaranteeing a steady income for M$ so they can pour as much money as necessary into their Win8 + WinPhone + WinApp Market + cloud services strategy until it has time to take hold.

IOW, sadly M$ is just getting started. Apple and Google cannot assume anything yet.

 

[A.Nonymous]

No backing from OEMS? Seriously?

MeeGo was built as a joint project between Nokia, Intel, Sony, Samsung and Motorola. And also, you don't need carrier support for an OS to have a shot when its still in the development stages: You have to build your OS first before trying to convince carriers to get it. Which is why your "carrier support" argument is invalid. You only need carrier support in the US. The world has been using smartphones a long time before the people in the US even knew about them.

MeeGo fell through when Nokia decided to drop it. Being the major developer, the others had no choice but to try a new OS of their own (Bada) or move on to Android. Sony only fully delved into Android after MeeGo development was officially scrapped.

I looked it up just to confirm if my recollection was correct. Meego was announced in early 2010 (Android was running Eclair at the time and was getting ready to announce Froyo so they'd been around for awhile, iOS had been around for three years as well) and Nokia announced it's partnership with MS in early 2011. By the time Meego was announced, they had no carrier or OEM support. That wasn't going to change. Samsung and Motorola were throwing all of their weight behind Android and Sony is a non-player in the US smart phone market. Meego was going to be a non-starter in the US. It wasn't going to go anywhere. Like, I said, at best, it's the next Symbian and everyone outside the US uses it.

Nokia needed MS if they were going to make any impact in the US market. If they had tossed in with Android, they'd have been just another Android handset makers and they had no carrier relationships. Their phones would've been shoved to the back of the shelves and wouldn't have sold. MS needed Nokia. HTC, Motorola, Samsung and even LG were (and still are) focusing their efforts on Android. Some of those companies are making WP7 phones as well, but their flagship phones are all Android. MS needed a hardware manufacturer who would go all in on WP7. That's what they got.

 

[Crashdamage]

At the time I got my very early pre-ordered G1, iOS, WinPhone 6, Blackberry, Palm and Symbian were the big players. Android back then was pretty crude, had virtually no apps, was available only in the US only on the #4 carrier and only on one kinda goofy-looking phone made by HTC who was then virtually unknown.

By your reasoning Android should have had NO chance. And everyone I knew thought I was crazy, wasting my money on that G1. Just wait, I told them, Android is gonna be HUGE.

Compared to Android at it's introduction, Meego was in a far better position to succeed and I had the same feeling about it then that I did about Android way back. Apparently M$ did too.

I still believe that at the time, a really superior OS like Meego had a real chance. Meego had a solid plan.

Some may say 'If that's so, how do you explain what happened to WebOS?'. Well, we could discuss that too...

 

[A.Nonymous]

At the time I got my very early pre-ordered G1, iOS, WinPhone 6, Blackberry, Palm and Symbian were the big players. Android back then was pretty crude, had virtually no apps, was available only in the US only on the #4 carrier and only on one kinda goofy-looking phone made by HTC who was then virtually unknown.

By your reasoning Android should have had NO chance. And everyone I knew thought I was crazy, wasting my money on that G1. Just wait, I told them, Android is gonna be HUGE.

Compared to Android at it's introduction, Meego was in a far better position to succeed and I had the same feeling about it then that I did about Android way back. Apparently M$ did too.

I still believe that at the time, a really superior OS like Meego had a real chance. Meego had a solid plan.

Some may say 'If that's so, how do you explain what happened to WebOS?'. Well, we could discuss that too...

Android had the backing of Google who had carrier and OEM relationships. Meego had only one OEM firmly behind it (Nokia) and no carrier relationships to speak of. Android also came into a market where there had been virtually no innovation to speak of in years (with the exception of the iPhone that had just been released). Meego would've come into a market where iOS and Android are both innovating, BB is trying to tread water and WP7 is trying to catch up.

You keep saying that MS was scared of Meego. I don't see why in the world they would. Why would they fear a brand new OS that had no carrier or OEM backing? WP7 is a much bigger dog than Nokia is. Partnering with Nokia was cheaper than spending big money getting someone like HTC, Motorola or Samsung to jump on board with WP7 phones.

It's interesting that you mentioned WebOS as I was just about it bring it up. Palm had carrier relationships and an interesting and innovative OS. I used to have a Touchpad and I can say from experience that there are several things about that OS that WebOS did far, far better than any other OS I've seen desktop or otherwise. I'm told that it's easier to develop for WebOS than any other OS as well. Don't know for sure if that's true or not though. They came to market way too late and had no developer support.

 

[Crashdamage]

Android had the backing of Google who had carrier and OEM relationships.

What carrier relationships? And the little-known HTC was all they had for OEM.

Meego had only one OEM firmly behind it (Nokia) and no carrier relationships to speak of.

Meego had Nokia, at the time far and away the largest mobile device manufacturer in the world, plus friggin' Intel, plus Samsung and others that chanchan05 listed earlier kinda lurking around. Sounds like a powerhouse alliance to me.

Android also came into a market where there had been virtually no innovation to speak of in years.(with the exception of the iPhone that had just been released)

Yeah, Google clearly sensed there may be an oppportunity.

Meego would've come into a market where iOS and Android are both innovating, BB is trying to tread water and WP7 is trying to catch up.

But come with the most kick-ass OS of all.

You keep saying that MS was scared of Meego. I don't see why in the world they would. Why would they fear a brand new OS that had no carrier or OEM backing?

See above. It DID have backing and it was the best OS. For years M$ has publicly stated that they most fear and consider their biggest threat to be Linux. Meego was real, open source, full stack, root-enabled mobile Linux with the backing of 2 of the biggest companies in the world. Of COURSE they were scared.

Partnering with Nokia was cheaper than spending big money getting someone like HTC, Motorola or Samsung to jump on board with WP7 phones.

It was necessary to ovethrow Nokia's leadership to stop Meego and try to buy market share for WP7 it could not gain on it's own.

Palm had carrier relationships and an interesting and innovative OS...there are several things about that OS that WebOS did far, far better than any other OS I've seen desktop or otherwise...They came to market way too late and had no developer support.

WebOS is very nice, I really like it - more than Android in some ways. It was doomed by being restricted to one manufacturer, poor hardware and mismanagement at Palm. Then it was further abused by HP. I still would like to see it make a splash but HP is dragging out releasing it as open source and every day that goes by makes WebOS less relevent.

 

[A.Nonymous]

What carrier relationships? And the little-known HTC was all they had for OEM.

Fair enough. They had no relationships at launch, but quickly jumped in bed with the carriers. This is something they are often criticized for.

Meego had Nokia, at the time far and away the largest mobile device manufacturer in the world, plus friggin' Intel, plus Samsung and others that chanchan05 listed earlier kinda lurking around. Sounds like a powerhouse alliance to me.

Nokia is not a powerhouse in the US. Intel is not a mover or a shaker in mobile and by 2010, Samsung was starting off it's Galaxy line. It was not all in on Meego. As I said, you've got another Symbian on your hands - an OS that the rest of the world uses, but no one in the States knows anything about.

But come with the most kick-ass OS of all.

The quality of the OS is irrelevant. WebOS is better than Android. There. I said it. It's a much better OS. Better integration of services. Better multi-tasking. Better design. I'll go as far as saying it's better than iOS as well. We all know what happened to it. If you have no carrier and OEM support, you're dead. If you don't have 20 billion apps like Android and iOS, then you're going to struggle as well. Look at WP7. I've never used it, but have heard nothing but positive reviews. I rarely see it in the wild. If it didn't have a big company with deep pockets like MS behind it, it would be dead by now.

See above. It DID have backing and it was the best OS. For years M$ has publicly stated that they most fear and consider their biggest threat to be Linux. Meego was real, open source, full stack, root-enabled mobile Linux with the backing of 2 of the biggest companies in the world. Of COURSE they were scared.

It didn't have backing. MS doesn't fear Linux. Linux is not a threat on the desktop. Linux rules web servers, but isn't a threat in any other server market. Open source doesn't make an OS any better or any worse than closed source. Consumers don't care if an OS is root enabled or not, nor do they care that it's Linux based. Like I said, Intel has no pull in the mobile world. There are no smartphones in production that I'm aware of that are running Intel processors. As I said earlier, Nokia has no market share in the US and they're losing market share over seas.

It was necessary to ovethrow Nokia's leadership to stop Meego and try to buy market share for WP7 it could not gain on it's own.

Meego had no market share. I don't follow.

WebOS is very nice, I really like it - more than Android in some ways. It was doomed by being restricted to one manufacturer, poor hardware and mismanagement at Palm. Then it was further abused by HP. I still would like to see it make a splash but HP is dragging out releasing it as open source and every day that goes by makes WebOS less relevent.

WebOS's problem was the lack of support by OEMs, carriers, and developers coupled with coming to the market too late. They demo'd it and everyone was excited. By the time it came out there was another iPhone on the market and another version of Android and no one cared. The fact that it was (I would argue) a better OS was irrelevant.

 

[mikedt]

Nokia is not a powerhouse in the US. Intel is not a mover or a shaker in mobile and by 2010, Samsung was starting off it's Galaxy line. It was not all in on Meego. As I said, you've got another Symbian on your hands - an OS that the rest of the world uses, but no one in the States knows anything about.

It's only one country though. Nokia is certainly a powerhouse in Europe and Asia. The Chinese certainly know Symbian, there's a heck of a lot of Symbian phones here. With Microsoft on board, I might start seeing WinPhone devices now.

 

[A.Nonymous]

It's only one country though. Nokia is certainly a powerhouse in Europe and Asia. The Chinese certainly know Symbian, there's a heck of a lot of Symbian phones here. With Microsoft on board, I might start seeing WinPhone devices now.

They are losing market share overseas to iOS and Android though. As I said, best case scenario for Meego is that it would be the next Symbian. It would be a smart phone OS that is used by everyone outside of the US.

 

[chanchan05]

The largest decrease in Nokia sales came AFTER its decision to drop Meego which happened late 2010 approx 6 months prior to Meego and N9 Announcement. Wait, scratch that, Meego was announced 2009, if I remember correctly, right after they released the n900, when Intel signed onboard.

In fact the Nokia community was surprised that they were going to release a Meego phone at all.

At the time also, Android was relatively small in Europe as well, and Nokia had enough clout to force Meego on European carriers, and by extension Tmobile in the US if they tried.

They signed with Microsoftto get into the US market again yes, but that's not the primary reason. Nokia owned ovet 50% of all cellular market in the world despite being unknown in the US. that market wasn't important at all, is just sort of a bonus for partnering with MS.

The real reason was that they were operating on heavy losses for over a year trying to build its own ecosystem for its OS: cloud service, email service, navigation, music service, app market, etc. MS offered it an entire ecosystem already up an running, and would pay Nokia to use it.

Think of it this way: You are trying to build a house of your own, then someone comes up to you and says, hey I'm gonna pay you to live in my house.

Don't keep on arguing that it was the US market that made Nokias decision. For almost a decade, nearly 60% of all phones sold I'm the world were Nokias without them having more than 15% market share in the US. That market is irrelevant to them.