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Help Non-removable batteries, why?

frusciante54

frusciante54

Member
Hi, I have some questions about non-removable batteries.

1 - Why do manufacturers make them non-removable? Is it good for the battery's life or is it something like Apple would do for profit? (You know, if your battery dies you can get a new battery but in this case you would have to buy a new phone, so the company makes more money)

2 - Is it possible to change the battery if it's non-removable? If it's not, then does this mean that we'll have to change our phones every 1-2 years? (Because I was thinking about once every 4-5 years)

I think I did have some more questions but I forgot them... I'll add them if I remember. Thank you in advance.
 
1) it makes the internal design easier, which gives the manufacturer a cost saving in terms of production... and also makes waterproofing more effective.

2) depends on the device.. in general the answer is often yes. the Ifixit website is a wonderful resource for electronic devices, giving instructions on how to do a lot of stuff. When a new device is released they'll work out how to take it apart before they even turn it on, they even give scores for each device, based on how easy it is to repair it yourself



(The new apple earbuds just aren't repairable by anyone, as they are just full of rubber glue!)
 
1. The main reasons are (1) you can fit a larger capacity battery in the same size device if you don't have to make it removable, and (2) you can make a more rigid or better sealed device if you don't need to provide a way of opening it up.

2. Usually yes, but how easy it is depends a lot on the device, so if that's what you want then research before buying. Also consider that it's unlikely that you'll find a replacement for an obscure device, and the older it gets the less likely you'll find one. That said, my phone (with a non-removable battery) is almost 4 years old now: its lifetime isn't what it was when new, but still better than the phone before it ever managed. If you need to replace a battery after a year then you are misusing the battery (regularly running it so flat that the device shuts down, for example, or getting it too hot on a regular basis).

Edit: meh, ninja'd!
 
Thank you both so much!

Hadron said:
1. The main reasons are (1) you can fit a larger capacity battery in the same size device if you don't have to make it removable, and (2) you can make a more rigid or better sealed device if you don't need to provide a way of opening it up.

2. Usually yes, but how easy it is depends a lot on the device, so if that's what you want then research before buying. Also consider that it's unlikely that you'll find a replacement for an obscure device, and the older it gets the less likely you'll find one. That said, my phone (with a non-removable battery) is almost 4 years old now: its lifetime isn't what it was when new, but still better than the phone before it ever managed. If you need to replace a battery after a year then you are misusing the battery (regularly running it so flat that the device shuts down, for example, or getting it too hot on a regular basis).

Edit: meh, ninja'd!
Click to expand...

4 years... Really? I thought batteries had something called cycles. It was around 500. So, between 1-2 years. How did you make it that far without changing the battery? Or did you change the battery?
By the way I don't know if that's still gonna be the case with my new phone which has non-removable battery, but my older phone's battery would usually last around 1-2 years. It was removable, so could it be because it was removable? Do non-removable batteries last longer?

And one more question, if I go to the manufacturer's service, you know, the place where they fix your phone and all, would they be able to change my battery (with a price of course)? You can say it depends but I want to know if at least one brand does it. Or else I would have to destroy the warranty by doing it myself or making some other person do it :D
 
That 500 charge cycle number is based on if you always run the battery down to low single digits, a practice NOT recommended by any valid source of info. If you're typically charging your phone when it's still at 50% you should be able to get approximately 1000 charges -- it's all about the math. The charge cycle is cumulative so if you're charging your phone each time it's down to 33% than after three days (3 x 33%) you've used up one of those theoretical 500 charge cycles, but also you have about 1500 charges before you hit that very theoretical 500 charge cycle limit
But you still need to factor in dozens of variables -- if you're typically using your phone in really cold or really hot locations that can affect battery life, just as much as whether you're typically just doing simple things like checking email and texts or you frequently spend a lot of time doing more taxing things like a Google Cardboard video. You also need to take into account that different manufacturers opt to use higher and lower quality sources of their batteries and that they come in many, many different capacities. Plus it's not just the capacity numbers but phones come in different configurations, running different versions of Android, aspects that have a direct correlation to battery longevity.
As for each phone from each different manufacturer, the battery might be held in place by friction fit and be easily replaceable, or it might be fixed in place with adhesives and glues requiring a heat gun and other tools. Again, there are just dozens of variables so if you want definitive, black and white answers that apply to everything there just aren't any.
 
Yes I actually know that one cycle refers to going from 100 to 0. My 24 hour battery consumption is about 80. So by 500 days, I will have used 80 percent of my battery capacity. And that's a point where I should not continue using that battery again. So, it's about 1,5 years that I will have to change my battery I guess.
Can I do it officially without breaking the warranty? (I don't know how you use that phrase, breaking warranty - destroying warranty? IDK)
 
Seems like battery post is needed again with how to make batteries last longer than 2 years.

Anyway the gist is, basically, batteries work by ion movement, and like a machine, these ions wear out over time due to use. And similar to machines, heavy use wears them out more. You're more likely to break an engine by running it for 1 day at max rev, than running it over a month at half capacity. The smaller the depth of discharge, the lower the wear. Lab tests have concluded that when you constantly discharge from 100 to 0, it allows you betwrrn 300-500 charge cycles before it starts to break down and not hold charges. More specifically, when you reach that magic number your battery can only hold 75% of it's original charge. That's typically 1-2 years of use if you charge once a day. And heavy abusers charge more than once a day, so that decreases the time span to however many weeks it takes them to reach 500 charge cycles.
Now, the increase in charge cycles is exponential, not arithmetical. So a depth of discharge to 50 before recharging will not give you 600-1000 charges. Rather it will give you 1200-1500 charge cycles. Mathematically, draining a 3600mah to zero for 300 charges gives you 1080000mah to burn through however short your battery life will be. On the other hand, using only 50% of the battery before recharging gives you 2160000mah to burn through before it expires after at least 1200 charge cycles. In other words, it stored twice more power for you to use. If you say, charge once every 24hrs, going always from 100 to 0 gives you at least 300 days. Recharging twice a day at 50% gives your battery at least 600 days of use before battery capacity deteriorates noticeably. Discharging to 75% before recharging actually gives you 2000-2500 charge cycles, making it even longer.
Basically the point is, always plug the phone in when given the chance. Don't wait for 50%, or whatever. 40% is an arbitrary number actually, not sure why it's chosen. Also, this is why one of the choices to auto activate power saving in the S7 is at 50%, so that it keeps the battery up as close to 50% as possible when you get the chance to plug in.

As for charging to 80%, this is because partial charge is better than full charge for lithium ion batteries. The ions are placed on stress to hold charges. Maximum stress is at 100% charge. And like everything else, stuff tends to break more. So not running it to 100% all the time will reduce overall stress experienced and increase the time before deterioration occurs. Personally I charge to 90%, and discharge to 40% or above. That's a 50% depth of charge, so that's good for up to 1500 charge cycles, plus whatever number of cycles the decrease in max stress gives me.

However, note that environmental temperatures also play a role in battery longevity.


Edit:

Hmm. Seems that I need to edit this. It's actually the depth of discharge that's important, not the percentage level left in the battery. Discharging from 100-50 will have the same effect on number of charge cycles as discharging from. 90-40, since both are a 50% discharge depth. They 90-40 discharge does have the advantage of having less full ion wear.
 
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Basically Li-ion batteries like top-ups, not full charges. So don't completely drain the battery.

As for why they are non-removable (actually not true because most of them can be replaced), yes the built in obsolescence is a factor. We live in a throwaway society.
 
I bought a Note 4 just because it had a removable battery. But the drawbacks are huge: I can't find a way to get root, I'm stuck on 6.0.1, and it's starting to get real laggy.
 
evans62 said:
I bought a Note 4 just because it had a removable battery. But the drawbacks are huge: I can't find a way to get root, I'm stuck on 6.0.1, and it's starting to get real laggy.
Click to expand...
Rooting doesn't make your phone run faster.
 
lvt said:
Rooting doesn't make your phone run faster.
Click to expand...
Well yes, the act of root itself doesn't make your phone faster, with root you can do much towards that end. With root you can remove a bunch of bloatware, it's easier to prevent autostart, etc. Not a magic bullet for sure but it can help. Even better is if you can root and get a better rom that may have significant performance.

And yup, basically planned Obsolescence would be my major guess. But non removable battery doesn't always mean exactly that. I have had phones like that, and if you can manage to get the case open, which you can almost always find a video for somewhere, you can probably get a battery somewhere and replace it. The battery on my phone was just sitting in there as any other phones batter might. I suppose some may be physically soldered or something to the device, but that hasn't really been my experience tho ymmv
 
My 2012 Moto G is still going strong with (almost) all day battery. I charge it whenever I can, typically when >50% remaining.
 
I learned a lot from this discussion. thank you to all.

A quick follow-up...is it good, or in this context better, to leave a phone plugged in after it has reached full charge if you are not using it?

What is the downside of leaving it plugged in all night? Or all day if the charger is convenient?
 
From what I understand, the charging circuit on the battery (as well as the logic in the main board) should determine when the battery will charge (and keeps it from overcharging). That's also why you should avoid purchasing (chea) non-OEM batteries that might not have the charging circuit built-in.

I typically leave my device(s) plugged-in to a USB port to trickle charge and leave it connected, even when I'm at 100% charged.
 
scary alien said:
From what I understand, the charging circuit on the battery (as well as the logic in the main board) should determine when the battery will charge (and keeps it from overcharging). That's also why you should avoid purchasing (chea) non-OEM batteries that might not have the charging circuit built-in.

I typically leave my device(s) plugged-in to a USB port to trickle charge and leave it connected, even when I'm at 100% charged.
Click to expand...

Thank you...that's what I hoped.

But just to clarify, if I don't have a usb port handy (I assume you mean one like on a desktop computer) it's still OK to leave it plugged into the wall circuit?

Part of the reason I ask is simply to determine how convenient and appropriate it might be just to have a charger cable plugged in and sitting on the table when I come in for the night.

BTW I have a Galaxy S6, with the non-removeable battery (and live in a relatively small town in Central Oregon). I have located at least three shops within a 25 mile radius that will replace the batteryon an S6. It's well over $100.00 IIRC, however.
 
Yeah, I typically just use the USB port/cable to trickle charge...wall chargers in places where I don't have the computer.

I would assume that the principle (and practice) is the same with a wall charger since it's the device that pulls the required/requested charge from the source and the circuitry will do its thing.

I'm sure the other folks will chime-in with correction or confirmation :).
 
A PC USB port will only provide limited current compared to a proper external charger. USB 2 ports can supply a max of about 500ma and that's if it's a fully powered port. A data-only port will supply less and shouldn't be used for charging or powering devices (such ports are intended for things like USB sticks, keyboards/mice, and other low-power things). While a USB 3 powered port can theoretically supply up to 900ma, that's only with an appropriate device connected and recognized so the port provides the max output. Otherwise if you connect a device for charging only it will still get no more than 500ma.
So, in short relying on your PC ports for charging isn't the best idea. It's far preferable to use an external charger rated to provide the full charging current required by the device. For a non quick-charge device that would be 5V 2A, newer quick-charge equipped devices need chargers with higher voltage and current capability.
The S6 has Qi wireless charging built in, so you can also get a Qi charging pad (or several to deploy around the house) to plop the phone on whenever you want without having to plug it in.
 
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