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marinny

Member
Hello
When I got my phone I had KitKat. Then it was Lollipop, and now Marshmallow.

I think with the latest October update, this where we stand @ 6.0.1.

During this upgrade to Lollipop I thought Google was supposed to relax its grip on the ability to move things to the SD card.

It seems it really never happened and now I cannot see how to do it, if I wanted to.

Could you please let me know what part of my mail is incorrect?
TY
Peter
 
It did relax its grip on the sd card, but the app needs to make use of the feature. When you try to write to sd the first time the app should request access, and the phone then opens a dialog for you to grant it. But if the app hasn't been updated to use this then you are still stuck.

So it's down to the app developer now.
 
During this upgrade to Lollipop I thought Google was supposed to relax its grip on the ability to move things to the SD card

Are you talking about access to the sd card/partition or are you talking about actually moving apps there?

With Android 4.... um 4.something (I don't remember the exact version) the whole file system was revamped and virtualized to allow dynamic adjusting of partition sizes. With later versions you were able to extend the internal space directly to an external sd card. Gone are the days when apps had to be "moved to sd".
 
Moderator help as I have a password which is not accepted so I used Google !!!!


@forum
Thank you for helping with permissions. I am not too skilled but was doing ok in that I could call, text, email, and send a n app to the SD card. If the 'send to' is no longer used, do I use the file manager or go to applications and use application manager if I want to send an app to the SD card. It could be something I downloaded or a photo?
TY for your help.
 
Ah, so you are talking about moving apps to SD rather than writing to SD more generally. OK, that's different.

Moving apps to SD was deprecated in 4.0. However, many manufacturers added it back to a lot of devices (but not all manufacturers and not all devices). It is easy to tell whether yours did this: go to Settings > Applications > Downloaded, pick and app, and is there a "move to SD" button? If there is then you have the option (if it is greyed-out it means that particular app doesn't allow it, but it is still available where the app developer permits it). If you don't have the button your manufacturer chose not to include it in the system software.

Nothing changed in 5. In Android 6 Google added the ability to "adopt" the SD card and use it as part of the internal storage. This is completely different from the old move to SD: the card would be reformatted (so wiped - back up data first) and encrypted, and is then treated as an extension to the internal storage. The plus is that you can move the whole of an app there, whereas the old system only moved part of it. The minus is that you can no longer use the card in a different device or a card reader. However, not all manufacturers supported this: some (e.g. LG and Samsung) removed this option from Android for their devices.

If we knew what device you have we could probably find out whether it should have that option.
 
I have a Galaxy S5 with Verizon. I could manage it for awhile
but now it is not user friendly at all. I have been reading forums and the web and it seems a ton of android owners are really disturbed. We cannot understand as regular average Joe's. We are not all developers or highly skilled and the phone should not be so complex it is almost useless. Might as well get a tracfone.
On my home screen there is a settings and an app button. if I press settings>applications>I see a list 1- app manager 2-default apps 3-etc. if I press app manager I see many apps and there are 2 choices-1- all apps enabled, turned off. And the 3 dots = show system apps, app permissions , draw over, modify, reset.
This is unrecognizable craziness to anyone but an expert. And even then. I'm off to MS but would like some direction first.
 
You really shouldn't have to delve that deeply into settings or app management if you don't want to. My wife has an S7 and I don't think she's ever opened the settings on her phone and she's perfectly happy.

Maybe we're going about this all wrong and rather answering your question we should be asking what the problem is. Out of space? Slow or buggy operation? Bad signals? I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with app management.
 
I agree - it might be better if you tell us what the problem is.

If it really was moving apps to SD then the S5 always had that option, and it worked the same way that has since Android 2.2. What if you just click on an app in what Samsung call the App Manager (Samsung rename a lot of stuff)? Do you have a move to sd button?
 
I know novices should limit their investigations but because I am quite proficient with Windows software, I am interested in learning about the phone. I think I have a fair grasp for an old timer with no help. I hope this thread serves to be of help to me.
I have no specific problem, but, Google seems to want to be too tight with permissions.
I saw 3 Google reps on TV[one woman + 2 men]. They apologized for the grip they had on the phones and promised to become more lax. This was about 2-3 years ago. They cited security for their grip. User were saying it should be up to the user to determine that.
I just read that Nougat will be even more strict.
So, it is not a problem but an attitude by Google.

If I may, Hadron, in post # 5 you said, "Go to Settings > Applications > Downloaded, pick and app, and is there a "move to SD" button? If there is then you have the option (if it is grayed-out it means that particular app doesn't allow it, but it is still available where the app developer permits it). If you don't have the button your manufacturer chose not to include it in the system software."
I replied in the next post as you can see. My reply will give you an idea of what I am facing. My phone used to have exactly what you described BUT nothing could be moved as they were all grayed out. I can see not moving part of the OS but why all else? My phone is only 16 GB so I bought a 64 byte card in good faith only to learn it is next to useless unless I have photos. I have had the pleasure of seeing the Windows Lumia use files and folder and move files around and should have gotten it. I don't feel Drive is as good as the files and folders when it comes to business, especially if synchronized with OneDrive.

I also asked if moving items around takes place in app manager or My Files. I used to use app manager and click the "send to" button which no longer exists. So now I use My files and can move photos but nothing else. I always thought it should be up to the user whether to root it or anything else and pay the consequences; not a big brother telling us what is best for us. I don't understand why Google is so concerned about our ability to gain control of OUR phone.

As to a question, I have a temperature gauge app which I downloaded. I see no way to move that to the card via app manager nor My Files. I don't see why this should not be allowed. I can see Google getting paranoid about moving an email program there but even so, it is my program no theirs. I paid for the phone and pay for service.
Don't feel I am venting here when I discuss Google. It may sound personal and strong but it has nothing to do with you. I hope I can learn.
Thank you
 
@marinny , you've got a lot there. Let me try to address most of it, but first let me say unequivocally that I am not apologizing for Google. They are an arrogant bunch, in their own hippy-dippy way.

As to having experience with Windows, I am a Windows network administrator and director of IT for a logistics company in the Mid-Atlantic (VA through NY) and we run a Windows enterprise. Forget everything you know about windows. Android is a different animal. Android is built on a Linux kernel and is a compact, lightweight, but very robust OS (which is why it works so well in embedded applications like cars and appliances).

Permissions has always been a heated topic of discussion. Linux has had very strict permissions from the beginning when Windows had virtually none. Even when the NT kernel was introduced at the consumer level with XP, almost everyone ran their OS in an administrative account. When MS tried to enforce that in Vista, there was such pushback from consumers that Vista got a bad rap and everyone pretty much ignored the permissions aspect. To this day I have IT staff that insist on elevating their user accounts to the administrator group so they don't have to elevate permission every time they need to access something in the protected files and folders of the OS. It's sloppy, lazy and dangerous.

In my opinion, it's the right way to run a secure OS. It appears that that is Google's opinion as well and I'm perfectly happy with the restrictions and inconveniences. Now, they did get them a bit tangled in Kitkat where folders that should have been more accessible were very restricted. That has been addressed in Marshmallow and Nougat. And, while the security is still present, they are behaving a little better and have given users MORE control over what those permissions are.

As to rooting or unlocking ... This has a few different aspects to it. First is the support issue. There will always be people who stick their virtual fingers into things where they don't belong and muck things up. And, no matter how big you make the sign "proceed at your own risk" or "If you do this, we won't help you fix it" they will still blame Google for having such a [insert sardonic hyperbole here] operating system. It's takes resources and makes for bad customer relations. If they make it harder to mess up beyond a factory reset, then that's all the fewer needless support calls from people with self inflicted wounds.

That said, I have rooted every phone I have ever had for one reason or another. However, I am currently running an unrooted Nexus 6 as my daily drive purely stock 6.01. I haven't seen the need to root in over a year. Now, the first thing I do, too is unlock my bootloader so I can flash updates early, but that's a different issue and I understand the risks and accept the responsibility.

The secure bootloader is necessary for primarily security. Phones these days carry a lot of personal information, and in the business or govt. world very sensitive information that needs to be safeguarded. Without these protections anyone with access to the device could potentially have access to the information stored on the phone and anything linked to it. Dragging out the tired old automotive analogy book, even though you own the car, you wouldn't want to grant the average driver access to the car's computer to mess with engine or safety settings (or worse, disabling them).

In an abstract and theoretical universe, I do agree that the owner of a device should be able to do whatever they want with it (as long as it doesn't violate any laws or hurt anyone else). As someone who has had to fix other's mistakes, i can tell you that 80% of users need to be locked out for their own good.

Now, moving apps to SD ... As @Hadron and I have stated, in Android 4.x they revamped the file system and virtualized the storage and system volumes to dynamically allocate (internal) space as needed. This includes the internal /sdcard partition which is where apps would theoretically be moved to. Now with the system, user and sd card partitions all sharing the same memory space, it is moot where Android saves them as the default installation will allocate space as needed. Moving them to the sd partition just 'rearranges the furniture' as it were without giving you any more room or better performance. That's why it's greyed out for many apps even if the OS permits it. It's pointless.

Now, you have a physical SD card. If you hear a loud rattling sound, that is my head shaking back and forth. SD cards should be for temporary storage only. They are slow and notoriously unreliable. They fail indiscriminately and often without warning. When they do, much, if not all is unrecoverable. And they were never intended for the continual read/write operations of an active application or service which shortens their lives. In the beginning of Android's life, when internal memory was slow and expensive and devices were shipping with 1GB total for both memory and storage, then SD cards were the only way to expand the capacity. Unfortunately once you have given someone something it is very hard to take it back (at least without a lot of moaning.) Google's paradigm is (and always had been) to use the cloud as your external storage. That's why the trend is more internal memory and no SD card slots. While it might not cost that much just to engineer one into phones, it goes against the ideal, like putting a floppy disk drive in a laptop these days.

Of course other manufacturers like Samsung and LG do include SD card slots and let you expand internal storage to them to effective give you more room, but, for me, that's like tying a trailer to your Honda Accord and driving cross country. It will hold you back and put the contents at risk.

To paraphrase Blaise Pascal, I'm sorry I wrote such a long response, but I didn't have time to write a short one. ;)
 
If I may, Hadron, in post # 5 you said, "Go to Settings > Applications > Downloaded, pick and app, and is there a "move to SD" button? If there is then you have the option (if it is grayed-out it means that particular app doesn't allow it, but it is still available where the app developer permits it). If you don't have the button your manufacturer chose not to include it in the system software."
I replied in the next post as you can see. My reply will give you an idea of what I am facing. My phone used to have exactly what you described BUT nothing could be moved as they were all grayed out. I can see not moving part of the OS but why all else? My phone is only 16 GB so I bought a 64 byte card in good faith only to learn it is next to useless unless I have photos. I have had the pleasure of seeing the Windows Lumia use files and folder and move files around and should have gotten it. I don't feel Drive is as good as the files and folders when it comes to business, especially if synchronized with OneDrive.
The button being there but all apps being greyed out seems odd. Some, certainly, even many, but all is surprising. That method of moving to SD (which actually only moves part of the app) always required consent from the developer, so there were always apps which couldn't be moved. When it was no longer supported by Google the number of developers who included support for it probably decreased (I have that impression, but anecdotally only). Nevertheless when I look on my Samsung tablet, running 5.1 (the closest thing I have to your device) I still find maybe 1 in 3 of the downloaded apps are moveable.

If you wanted a clear test, Firefox allows moving. As does GSam Battery Monitor. If either of those can't be moved then it's definitely your phone's software. For what it's worth, any change will be either Samsung or Verizon, not Google/Android, since we're talking about a feature that has not been part of the base OS that Google supply since 4.0.

I've tried to find out whether it's different in MM, or whether Verizon have done something (they do sometimes remove features from their phones that the manufacturer included), and have come across a suggestion that the interface may have changed for the same feature: if you select an app in the App Manager and tap "Storage" do you see the storage location described and a "Change" button? That comes from a description of the S7 interface, but I found some person who said that they could move apps with the S5 "but the interface has changed a bit" (no description), so wonder whether it might be that?
I also asked if moving items around takes place in app manager or My Files. I used to use app manager and click the "send to" button which no longer exists. So now I use My files and can move photos but nothing else. I always thought it should be up to the user whether to root it or anything else and pay the consequences; not a big brother telling us what is best for us. I don't understand why Google is so concerned about our ability to gain control of OUR phone.
You cannot move apps using the file manager (My Files). Without root you can't even see the installed app files, but if you used root to move them that way you'd break the app - the OS would no longer know where to find it. This isn't something that has changed, it's been that way since I first used Android (Android 2.1).

Google's problems with SD are a mixture of performance, reliability and security concerns. SD cards are both slower and less reliable than internal storage (I have had a genuine Samsung card die suddenly when only 6 months old, so can attest that it's not just a myth). As for security, the fat filesystem that many cards come with doesn't allow proper access control, which breaks the app security model of Android (where apps should not be able to modify each other's data). In 4.4 they locked it down hard, with only system apps having write access. In 5.0 they introduced the option to allow user apps to write to the SD card, but the app has to request it and the user authorise it. Many developers have not taken advantage of that, in which case the app remains unable to write to SD. I've little direct experience of 6.x, but their liberalisation there was to allow the card to be reformatted for use as internal storage, bringing all of the flexibility of internal storage and all of the restrictions (but still with the lesser reliability of SD). Not apologising for them, just explaining their thinking and the evolving constraints as best I understand them.

Google's own devices have not included removable cards since 2011, which means that if you use one of them you aren't aware of any of this.
As to a question, I have a temperature gauge app which I downloaded. I see no way to move that to the card via app manager nor My Files. I don't see why this should not be allowed. I can see Google getting paranoid about moving an email program there but even so, it is my program no theirs. I paid for the phone and pay for service.
Don't feel I am venting here when I discuss Google. It may sound personal and strong but it has nothing to do with you. I hope I can learn.
The answer may depend on whether your phone does still have that option (with just the interface changed) or not. If not, I've seen enough reports that others can still do it that I strongly suspect that it would be Verizon responsible (no idea why they would, but they are the most interfering and control freaky of all of the carriers when it comes to software).

But you may still have the option and not be able to move the app, because the developer may have chosen not to support it. They have always had that option, and many have never allowed their apps to be moved. If that's the case you'd have to ask the developer why not.

And hey, don't worry about sounding cross - I try to be careful about reading tone in text-only communications, because I know how easily things can come across differently from what is intended. And I have called Microsoft, Apple and Google some fairly choice names over the years ;)
 
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