Romney vs. Obama

[TxGoat]

Oh, and you don't need many credit hours of psychology to understand why people would vote against their financial interest. It typically means there is another factor involved in their decision making.

 

[A.Nonymous]

The Democrats aren't exactly "champions of the middle class" either. Don't kid yourself.

 

[TxGoat]

The Democrats aren't exactly "champions of the middle class" either. Don't kid yourself.

Trust me, I've lost favor with our political leaders as a whole. What irritates me most however is when someone tries to shift blame away from their party to another party. Some people/candidates claim that Obama bailed out the banks, but it was Bush that signed the most expensive piece of socialist legislation into law. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would defend GOP policies or Democrat policies. "Lets ban 32 oz cups!!". How profoundly idiotic...

Oh and I know that the dipsh!t that wants the ban is an independent, but it's something you'd see from the left.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Trust me, I've lost favor with our political leaders as a whole. What irritates me most however is when someone tries to shift blame away from their party to another party. Some people/candidates claim that Obama bailed out the banks, but it was Bush that signed the most expensive piece of socialist legislation into law. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would defend GOP policies or Democrat policies. "Lets ban 32 oz cups!!". How profoundly idiotic...

Oh and I know that the dipsh!t that wants the ban is an independent, but it's something you'd see from the left.

You're a bit harsh on the GOP, but at least they let everybody know who their boss is.

Bank Yankers - Jamie Dimon on Capitol Hill - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 06/14/12 - Video Clip | Comedy Central[FONT=&quot]
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[TxGoat]

You're a bit harsh on the GOP, but at least they let everybody know who their boss is.

Bank Yankers - Jamie Dimon on Capitol Hill - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 06/14/12 - Video Clip | Comedy Central[FONT=&quot]
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C'mon now, everyone knows that Jon Stewart is part of the "Libural media"!

And I must correct you, everyone knows that the big banks aren't in EVERY senator's pocket....Sometime's it's big oil....A classic from the BP oil spill....

Rep. Joe Barton to BP: "I apologize." - YouTube

 

[OutofDate1980]

The gambling and prostitution arm of the Family is just beginning its part in the "bust out" of America.

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Exclusive: Adelson's Pro-Romney Donations Will Be 'Limitless,' Could Top $100M - Forbes

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"Forbes has confirmed that billionaire Sheldon Adelson, along with his wife Miriam, has donated $10 million to the leading Super PAC supporting presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney​

 

[Android311]

I'm voting for Romney, the reason why is because America is like a big business, so we need a business man to handle the problems, Obama is just book smart and has no experience in dealing with problems like the one we are in. People say big corporations are bad and greedy, I love big corporations and business because it powers America, it gives Americans jobs. You may not like Romney but in this time we need someone that knows how to handle money, not throw it around like Obama calling it stimulus package

Democrats will raise taxes to bring in more money for government, the economy is bad so how do they get money? Raise taxes when people are broke

Republicans lower taxes because they feel big government is bad and controlling (which it is)


I call the Obama party the socialist party, he wants everyone to have his Obama care, he wants everyone to drive green eco friendly cars, I understand his point but it's unconstitutional for government to do that, you can't force the people to drive certain cars or tell them you have to use this healthcare or else you will get fined, people need to know the truth about this guy, sure he wants to help, but he is making things worse

 

[TxGoat]

I think you're thinking of "Bush" when you say "He's making it worse". I don't think Obama is making it better (at least not in the immediate sense), but I think the 8 years under Bush is what got us here and I can't see voting back in the party that got us here in the first place.

Oh, and Bush was also a "businessman". I don't see how a business man in the White House is the answer. A businessman won't fix our crumbling infrastructure, will cut training (education), and won't invest in innovation (our future) if there's no profit to be made (the space program, was there profit there?). This is a country that needs to be managed, not the local Piggly Wiggly.

 

[Android311]

Good point, but you think Obama is the guy to fix this?

 

[A.Nonymous]

The economy under Clinton prospered but it was all built on a house of cards. 9/11 just made the house of cards fall sooner than it otherwise would've. The Bush administration certainly didn't do anything to reverse that, but neither has Obama. Neither party has the answers. Also, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to lay the blame at the foot of either party since the entire economy is in a wreck worldwide. It's not just the US.

 

[TxGoat]

Good point, but you think Obama is the guy to fix this?

It depends on what you mean by "fix this". Some people think the way to fix it is by cutting off social programs, cutting education funding, and stripping government down to practically nothing. While I would love to trust big business to its own devices, the BP spill, the financial wreck in 2008, and the gutting of jobs to make the bottom line look better are what we've seen from them in the past. I don't think that will fix things, at least not for the vast majority of the U.S. citizens, but it will for the top. And lets face it, the gap between the richest and the poorest is at an all time high, is that the direction we want to continue going?

The extreme other option is wage a tax war on the wealthiest, give medical coverage to EVERY U.S. citizen, force automakers to make vehicles that are more about fuel conservation and less about driving excitement, force individuals into healthy lifestyles by mandating what they eat, and provide such a "buffet" of government services that we're no longer motivated to succeed and suckle at the government teet forever.

Personally, I don't think either is a viable solution, but I think the Right wing has gone so far right that the center has been skewed and is now where the right was when Reagan was in office. Sure some things have gone left from center (social acceptance of homosexuality, women's reproductive rights, etc), but those issues really don't affect me at all and I know the GOP insists that they do. What does affect me is when my benefits and wages aren't even keeping up with inflation, and yet the top wage earners get salary increases that's more than what a lot of people earn in a year.


It's funny because it almost sounds like it's a vote for Testosterone vs Estrogen. The Republicans want to be all "survival of the fittest, take no prisoners, lets show the world our testicle fortitude via more wars", and the left is all "Lets all just relax, lets not run with scissors (or 32 oz drinks), lets care for everyone in a nurturing way". I'd have no problem with the "survival of the fittest", "the cream will rise to the top" mindset, but I've seen how people cheat the system and then it turns into "survival of the most crooked". If the system was pure enough to allow the best to succeed then I'd be all for a laissez faire system. In a system where someone like GWB can become President (based on his military/school records) I don't see how anyone can claim that it's a system that encourages the best to succeed.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I'm voting for Romney, the reason why is because America is like a big business

I'll just say that I really dont think a massive federation like the USA is particularly like a business - the point of government is to provide stability and consistent improvement in living quality, not to make a profit.

so we need a business man to handle the problems, Obama is just book smart and has no experience in dealing with problems like the one we are in.

I think your point about Obama being booksmart is fair, but booksmart people often run things better than those who are used to kicking people around.

People say big corporations are bad and greedy, I love big corporations and business because it powers America, it gives Americans jobs. You may not like Romney but in this time we need someone that knows how to handle money, not throw it around like Obama calling it stimulus package

Big corporations are great, sure. Without them we wouldnt have advanced a whole pile since feudalism But they have to be regulated and managed, as well as the government helping them out by providing a strong, stable, prosperous economy and society

And Romney wants to put money into the rich and military instead of the low income peeps and infrastructure, not exactly how you get an economy moving.

Democrats will raise taxes to bring in more money for government, the economy is bad so how do they get money? Raise taxes when people are broke

You know, when the economy is growing slowly you can still actually increase revenues! Hell, my states economy isnt growing and tax revenues have been increased year on year

Anyway - when an economy is in crisis, you cut spending, as it recovers, you raise taxes. And the best taxes are things to promote economic growth are things like carbon taxes.

Republicans lower taxes because they feel big government is bad and controlling (which it is)

"big" government isnt necessarily very controlling (although any government tends to be, not a particularly bad thing in moderation), if you mean big by spending %GDP. I mean the US has low government involvement in the economy but it spies on you.

I call the Obama party the socialist party, he wants everyone to have his Obama care, he wants everyone to drive green eco friendly cars, I understand his point but it's unconstitutional for government to do that, you can't force the people to drive certain cars or tell them you have to use this healthcare or else you will get fined, people need to know the truth about this guy, sure he wants to help, but he is making things worse

Then you need to get a dictionary Socialism hasnt happened in Europe since the 80s (Mitterand nationalised some stuff for purely leftist reasons), so no way is any major group in the US socialist when you consider how far to the right of us your country is. Obama Care is not socialist, socialist healthcare would be having the government OWN the healthcare system.

Who forces anyone to drive certain cars? You can drive any car you want, but if you buy an inefficient car you should have to pay a lot extra. The US never took the measures Europe and Japan did on vehicular efficiency (and ye love your huge cars), and now all your cars use ridiculous amounts of fuel and dont sell in Europe. And the American governments have done ridiculously little on this matter, Global Warming is a huge issue but the US public is simply too ignorant and backward.

And Obamcare doesnt say you have to use THIS healthcare, it says you have to have it basically. Big difference.

 

[ElasticNinja]

The economy under Clinton prospered but it was all built on a house of cards. 9/11 just made the house of cards fall sooner than it otherwise would've. The Bush administration certainly didn't do anything to reverse that, but neither has Obama. Neither party has the answers. Also, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to lay the blame at the foot of either party since the entire economy is in a wreck worldwide. It's not just the US.

Yeah but this economic problem is basically the responsibility of American and European governments on EVERY level, as opposed to Chinese or Brazilian governments.

 

[Android311]

Your very smart, thanks for making me look like a dumb ass jk

Hopefully somebody can get this economy back up and running, just a mater of time

 

[TxGoat]

Your very smart, thanks for making me look like a dumb ass jk

Hopefully somebody can get this economy back up and running, just a mater of time

It's not about making anyone look like a dumbass, there's a lot of misinformation out there. EN has a good and unique perspective. I'm guessing he doesn't live in the continental U.S. and probably benefits from not being in the U.S. where the rhetoric is dialed up to insane levels.

Sadly, I live in Texas where everything is "Conservative this, conservative that". They fling the word around like it's a badge of honor. It's a shame that they don't practice INTERNAL conservatism and only want to practice EXTERNAL conservatism. "We don't care about CONSERVING the the environment or individual rights, just conserving everyone else's morality and conserving regulation towards big business".

Oh and don't let some of the posts turn you off of this thread/section. Granted, you can almost feel some people's anger as they type away at their keyboard. It seems as if they hate opinions that they don't agree with, and you can almost sense the anger. Sadly, they fail to realize that this country was founded because of their discord with England.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Yeah but this economic problem is basically the responsibility of American and European governments on EVERY level, as opposed to Chinese or Brazilian governments.

I'm certainly no expert on global economics, but I think there is plenty of blame to go around. Certainly the US is not like some countries that are on the verge of bankruptcy, but it is definitely on the wrong track.

Again, I think the problem is people are looking for solutions on the extreme. The two solutions being discussed seem to be taxing the wealthy even more than they already are and using the money to dish out free benefits to everyone or letting the free market roam unchecked. Neither are great options. I think we'd all agree on that. Personally, I would rather wait and let things shake out than try throwing crap against the wall that might or might not work.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Romney supported Vietnam War, but couldn't participate himself as he was following a family tradition of being of military age during armed conflicts but not serving.

Romney's (non) military record faces new scrutiny - politics - msnbc.com

"Though an early supporter of the Vietnam War, Romney avoided military service at the height of the fighting after high school by seeking and receiving four draft deferments, according to Selective Service records. They included college deferments and a 31-month stretch as a "minister of religion" in France, a classification for Mormon missionaries that the church at the time feared was being overused. The country was cutting troop levels by the time he became eligible for the draft, and his lottery number was not called."

 

[ElasticNinja]

Your very smart, thanks for making me look like a dumb ass jk

Hopefully somebody can get this economy back up and running, just a mater of time

Ah not really.

The economy is running, its just not running particularly well. Even back in the 90's the economy had a whole host of problems that needed fixing, the crisis has brought these to the fore (In particular healthcare costs (Twice %GDP compared to Europe/Japan, with less results), and the stagnation of wages for the lower income tiers since the Eighties).

It's not about making anyone look like a dumbass, there's a lot of misinformation out there. EN has a good and unique perspective. I'm guessing he doesn't live in the continental U.S. and probably benefits from not being in the U.S. where the rhetoric is dialed up to insane levels.

I am from the Republic of Ireland

Sadly, I live in Texas where everything is "Conservative this, conservative that". They fling the word around like it's a badge of honor. It's a shame that they don't practice INTERNAL conservatism and only want to practice EXTERNAL conservatism. "We don't care about CONSERVING the the environment or individual rights, just conserving everyone else's morality and conserving regulation towards big business".

When I was a child I could never figure out why US conservatives like Bush didnt conserve anything (natural resources, money, the environment)

 

[ElasticNinja]

I'm certainly no expert on global economics, but I think there is plenty of blame to go around. Certainly the US is not like some countries that are on the verge of bankruptcy, but it is definitely on the wrong track

And those countries on the verge of bankruptcy are European as I said (incidentally they have smaller budget deficits as a %GDP).

Again, I think the problem is people are looking for solutions on the extreme. The two solutions being discussed seem to be taxing the wealthy even more than they already are and using the money to dish out free benefits to everyone or letting the free market roam unchecked. Neither are great options. I think we'd all agree on that. Personally, I would rather wait and let things shake out than try throwing crap against the wall that might or might not work.

Increasing taxes on groups which have the least economic impact when taxed more - extreme? I see. Generally thats what you do when the economy is in the mud and you need to increase tax revenues. Generally its also what you do when you need to redistribute wealth more fairly. The US has problems in both these fields, so logic dictates.

And the let things shake thing - what? Hasnt the federal government had 4 years of that?

 

[TxGoat]

When I was a child I could never figure out why US conservatives like Bush didnt conserve anything (natural resources, money, the environment)

All I ask is that you don't think Bush represents every Texan. One of the biggest disappointments for me is that he lives about 30 minutes from my house. It's like finding out your neighbor is Satan's special needs brother.

 

[Android311]

I think we just need a flat rate tax for all, that's fair right? There's no such thing is "poor" in America, we have low income which is a big difference from poor. Obama wants to "share the wealth" as he said before, I understand he wants to help but you can't take Americans money buy taxing the middle class or rich more it's just not fair, it's your money you worked for and not to be spread around by the government. The government raises taxes in tough times and where does the money go? I'd like to see more cutting then taxing, taxing shouldn't be the first solution you go to when the government needs money. So they can blow it off right in front of your face and you can't do anything about it

I don't like Obama because his polices are no good, I'm not a huge Romney fan but I'd rather have him in office. I think we should drill our own oil and rely on our selves and not give our money to the people we don't get along most. Things should be made in America but that won't happen. I don't think Obama will be in office again, he had his chance and he didn't take the most of it. Passing Obama care didn't help either, shoving his polices down our throat, it's what he wants not the American people.

 

[TxGoat]

I think we just need a flat rate tax for all, that's fair right? There's no such thing is "poor" in America, we have low income which is a big difference from poor. Obama wants to "share the wealth" as he said before, I understand he wants to help but you can't take Americans money buy taxing the middle class or rich more it's just not fair, it's your money you worked for and not to be spread around by the government. The government raises taxes in tough times and where does the money go? I'd like to see more cutting then taxing, taxing shouldn't be the first solution you go to when the government needs money. So they can blow it off right in front of your face and you can't do anything about it

I don't like Obama because his polices are no good, I'm not a huge Romney fan but I'd rather have him in office. I think we should drill our own oil and rely on our selves and not give our money to the people we don't get along most. Things should be made in America but that won't happen. I don't think Obama will be in office again, he had his chance and he didn't take the most of it. Passing Obama care didn't help either, shoving his polices down our throat, it's what he wants not the American people.

The only thing about trying to tax everyone 'fairly', wages aren't set fairly so to ask someone that makes minimum wage to pay the same percentage as someone that makes 400% more than minimum wage (sadly it's usually more than that) doesn't really seem fair IMO.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I think we just need a flat rate tax for all, that's fair right? There's no such thing is "poor" in America, we have low income which is a big difference from poor.

Naive.

Obama wants to "share the wealth" as he said before, I understand he wants to help but you can't take Americans money buy taxing the middle class or rich more it's just not fair, it's your money you worked for and not to be spread around by the government.

I'm sure they did work for it but some people's work earns more for various reasons, some people are more gifted, more lucky etc.

List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US is far more unequal than almost any other developed country or territory, how exactly is that "fair"? Are the bottom 50-70% simply lazier in the US than in Europe or Japan? We all know thats not the case. And given the fact that GINI doesnt account for government services etc, the US is even worse than that on paper.

The government raises taxes in tough times and where does the money go? I'd like to see more cutting then taxing, taxing shouldn't be the first solution you go to when the government needs money. So they can blow it off right in front of your face and you can't do anything about it.

I agree there needs to be cuts, but there were tons of tax cuts already, so taxes have to be brought up.

I already said this.

I don't like Obama because his polices are no good, I'm not a huge Romney fan but I'd rather have him in office. I think we should drill our own oil and rely on our selves and not give our money to the people we don't get along most.

I'm pretty sure there are good reasons for those oil drilling bans. And the US uses crazy amounts of oil, realistically you should be looking to half oil use in twenty years, not to just drill more. Again, fossil fuel use needs to be curtailed, for environmental and economic reasons.

And rely on yourselves more? How the hell will Romney help with that? You remember Obama was the protectionist guy in the last presidential election? Romney will just increase imports from Israel and import even more oil.

Things should be made in America but that won't happen.

Why? Why should they be made in America? Many resources cant be "made" in the US, and many products are simply made better elsewhere. You shouldnt buy something because of where its made, but because of HOW its made. Perhaps a lesson for any American car owner
Also, how uncapitalistic of you. Tut tut. See you were complaining about socialism earlier?

I don't think Obama will be in office again, he had his chance and he didn't take the most of it. Passing Obama care didn't help either, shoving his polices down our throat, it's what he wants not the American people.

Yeah Obama didnt, he tried to be too nice and work with Republicans.
And Obama was elected on the premise of healthcare for all, yet you complain? Shoving policies down your throat? Obama care is so watered down its not even funny.

Every other developed country has universal healthcare, you are left with some piss poor mandatory insurance system that still manages to be an improvement over the non system in place beforehand. How Americans put up with this I'll never know.

 

[TxGoat]

Every other developed country has universal healthcare, you are left with some piss poor mandatory insurance system that still manages to be an improvement over the non system in place beforehand. How Americans put up with this I'll never know.

The GOP does a good job of convincing us to vote against our best financial interest. It's sad really. If you look at what issues they've tried to present to the public in the past 10+ years, it's "terrorism", "Gay/Lesbian rights", "Immigration", and "Abortion rights". None of those topics really matter to me in particular. The economy, that matters to me, and they do try to attack the Democrats' record, but their solution of more tax cuts for the "job creators", trickle down economics doesn't work.

 

[as439726]

I think we just need a flat rate tax for all, that's fair right?

I agree with the first part of your post regarding a flat tax. I prefer a National Sales Tax. That way it is fairly distributed. Lower incomes spend less, so they would be taxed less.