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Should Arizona secede from the US?
- Thread starter rleal2010
- Start date
papichulo69r
Member
. the part you left out in your quote above is the portion in the bill where people can only be questions about their immigration status if they have been detained for committing a crime.
news flash, its been ruled time and time again by the Supreme Court that local police have the authority to question suspects that have been detained for crimes about their immigration status.
I couldnt find that part. Maybe I read a different version of it.
papichulo69r
Member
That is regarding employing unauthorized aliens. A person can file a complaint about a company using illegals but the attorney general will not investigate the complaint if it is "based solely on race, color, or national origin"
Why are you against this law? Do you live in that state? If not, it is really their business...states rights... ever hear of them? Also, it is the same exact law the fed Government has, so you must not be for it as well...
Right. based on national origin, as long as they are here legally, this does not apply to illegal aliens ...
No, it doesn't say that as "that's all." It doesn't say what the OP claimed either. Please post the exact content of SB 1070 you have issues with, along with the date of the bill to ensure it is the amended version.
Sounds like you see what you want to see.
That explains a lot.Oh really? I seem to remember a certain number of states who did it during a little event called the American Civil War. Anyways people will make claims that legally you cannot secede as the Federal government reasserted by invading the Southern states. However, and this is universal rule that applies to any faction, group, or identifying power on the planet. Anyone can break away from anything if they have enough support to do so.
For example the Thirteen Colonies breaking away from Britain, or more recently the break up of Yugoslavia into independent states or nations (state is just another way of saying a sovereign body btw). Ultimately it is the body itself that reserves the right to absolve a union on its own call and that right cannot be owned by anyone despite anything on paper. Its a natural law that they can do so simply because they can. All it would take for Arizona or any US state to secede would be a set vote as was done during the Civil War and the state government would take care of the rest.
Would it be in the best interest for Arizona to do so? Not without guarantees from other states that it would follow suit, and had sufficient economic as well as military forces to justify its own defense and well being. However, given the debt of the federal government and its clear lack of interest in defending its own borders while off policing the worlds problems, a positive case might be made to do so.
inerdgrl
Lurker
Wow, I did not realize it was that bad in Arizona...
I think that the facts may be a bit over dramatic though. Granted there is a huge problem with illegal immigration but if there were no jobs for the illegals frankly there would be no reason for them to move here. Playing devils advocate, there are many tax paying, law abiding (albeit except for immigration status) illegal immigrants in all boarder states. It certainly does not help when every dozen or so years we grant amnesty or extend the previous amnesty program(s).
The drug issue in combination with the human smugglers (coyotes) are the crux of our problems, law enforcement and social services are overburdened and tax payers/legal citizens are tired of footing the bill. While I do not particularly think that the law was a smart idea as we will be incurring giant legal expenses, frankly something needs to be done.
Funny thought to secede from the Union, not surprising from a Texan - would you join us?
I think that the facts may be a bit over dramatic though. Granted there is a huge problem with illegal immigration but if there were no jobs for the illegals frankly there would be no reason for them to move here. Playing devils advocate, there are many tax paying, law abiding (albeit except for immigration status) illegal immigrants in all boarder states. It certainly does not help when every dozen or so years we grant amnesty or extend the previous amnesty program(s).
The drug issue in combination with the human smugglers (coyotes) are the crux of our problems, law enforcement and social services are overburdened and tax payers/legal citizens are tired of footing the bill. While I do not particularly think that the law was a smart idea as we will be incurring giant legal expenses, frankly something needs to be done.
Funny thought to secede from the Union, not surprising from a Texan - would you join us?
There are no jobs in Arizona, which is why now the illegals are focused on drug trafficking and mob rule of the border more than the "American Dream".
hakr100
Android Expert
Well, sure...you wouldn't expect a conservative governor and conservative voters to look inward and do whatever they could do to improve economic conditions in their state...it's far easier to find scapegoats.
It would be interesting to learn what the approximate percentage of illegals is Arizona is, and what percentage of those are engaged in serious criminal activities.
ballisticn8
Android Expert
lmao, i dont think i could've said it better myself...illegals are criminals, they have violated federal laws by them simply being in the united states. i guess that means that 100% of all illegals are involved in serious criminal activities seeing as how every single one of them has violated federal laws, damn, imagine that huh?
FYI there were approx 450,000 suspected illegal immigrants in Arizona...
ballisticn8
Android Expert
and hackr, it isnt the job of the american people or the people of arizona to create jobs for illegals/criminals, we should be creating jobs for citizens and people that are in this country legally.
hakr100
Android Expert
and hackr, it isnt the job of the american people or the people of arizona to create jobs for illegals/criminals, we should be creating jobs for citizens and people that are in this country legally.
Apparently Arizona is not concentrating on job creation.
Everyone, please note the real "tolerance" of liberals. Their party of Hate & Hypocrisy™ rears it's ugly head once again.
Crude
Android Expert
Pardon me....but how do illegals pay taxes without a SS#? And also, what legal expenses are "we" incurring from what? If you are referring to Arizona defending their new bill well...we got ya covered. Last I hear Arizona has received over $750,000 in donations to defend the bill....I can't even believe there is an argument here, this is so depressing.
ballisticn8
Android Expert
Lol @ the donations. Its true, Thursday afternoon they had quoted that there were over $500,000 in donations with it expected to triple by this coming Friday.
For all the libs out there wanting to push their agenda about letting all the criminals (why not call it as it is, they broke federal laws so illegal immigrants are criminals) to be left alone you should all pull out your checkbooks and write checks to cover the more than $100 million annually that they cost the hospital systems. I'm a data analyst and run financial audits and reports for one of the largest health care organizations in the southwest and its ridiculous how much money is lost because they know they can show up the the hospital, receive treatment, then disappear.
Are changes needed to the immigration system, yes, do I think amnesty is the answer, nope, I don't feel that criminals should be given a free pass just because they are here. We have a system in place that let in over 1 million people last year, the legal way, thats how people should be coming in if they want in this country. That number doesn't include people given asylum or refugees.
From anyone that wants to view my post as hate filled let me tell you that you are wrong. I have seen up close what illegal immigration does. I personally drew a gun and almost shot 4 young men armed with knives and a tire iron before they decided to get back in their car when an illegal immigrant that they had kidnapped hopped out of the trunk of a car barefoot, bleeding, with tape around his mouth and arms, running across 4 lanes of asphalt and into an apartment complex in August with 125 degrees heat burning the flesh of his feet at 330 in the afternoon. I gave him water, a towel to stand on so his feet didn't burn anymore, cut his bonds, and made sure the people that had kidnapped him didn't come back for him until police arrived.
A guy that was two years behind me in high school who was involved in an R.O.V. program (remote operated vehicle or basically an underwater robot) graduated top of his class year and received a full ride scholarship to ASU and graduated with an engineering degree. This young man was married and had a kid, applied for a job, only to find that his parents brought him to this country illegally when he was a baby. He voluntarily left the US, leaving his wife and child here, and applied to enter the country legally and because he didn't lie on his application and acknowledged that he lived here illegally he will not be granted residency under the current laws.
I have seen up close effects of illegal immigration. Whether or not people are doing things just to make a better life for themselves doesn't forgive the fact that they are committing crimes. Amnesty isn't the answer IMO, you dint just grant people a get out of jail free card for breaking federal law because its easy. The system needs redone. Exceptions should and could be made for those that could greatly benefit our country and who have made the steps to do things right.
The AZ law is an attempt by the people of the State of AZ to untie the hands of our police officers. The feds do nothing, and our police are powerless to do anything until something violent happens. We shouldn't have to wait to prosecute criminals until they shed the blood of our citizens and yet it happens, time and time again. The govt shouldn't have let it get to a point where the states are having to pass laws to protect themselves because they wont or cant do the job they are responsible for.
For all the libs out there wanting to push their agenda about letting all the criminals (why not call it as it is, they broke federal laws so illegal immigrants are criminals) to be left alone you should all pull out your checkbooks and write checks to cover the more than $100 million annually that they cost the hospital systems. I'm a data analyst and run financial audits and reports for one of the largest health care organizations in the southwest and its ridiculous how much money is lost because they know they can show up the the hospital, receive treatment, then disappear.
Are changes needed to the immigration system, yes, do I think amnesty is the answer, nope, I don't feel that criminals should be given a free pass just because they are here. We have a system in place that let in over 1 million people last year, the legal way, thats how people should be coming in if they want in this country. That number doesn't include people given asylum or refugees.
From anyone that wants to view my post as hate filled let me tell you that you are wrong. I have seen up close what illegal immigration does. I personally drew a gun and almost shot 4 young men armed with knives and a tire iron before they decided to get back in their car when an illegal immigrant that they had kidnapped hopped out of the trunk of a car barefoot, bleeding, with tape around his mouth and arms, running across 4 lanes of asphalt and into an apartment complex in August with 125 degrees heat burning the flesh of his feet at 330 in the afternoon. I gave him water, a towel to stand on so his feet didn't burn anymore, cut his bonds, and made sure the people that had kidnapped him didn't come back for him until police arrived.
A guy that was two years behind me in high school who was involved in an R.O.V. program (remote operated vehicle or basically an underwater robot) graduated top of his class year and received a full ride scholarship to ASU and graduated with an engineering degree. This young man was married and had a kid, applied for a job, only to find that his parents brought him to this country illegally when he was a baby. He voluntarily left the US, leaving his wife and child here, and applied to enter the country legally and because he didn't lie on his application and acknowledged that he lived here illegally he will not be granted residency under the current laws.
I have seen up close effects of illegal immigration. Whether or not people are doing things just to make a better life for themselves doesn't forgive the fact that they are committing crimes. Amnesty isn't the answer IMO, you dint just grant people a get out of jail free card for breaking federal law because its easy. The system needs redone. Exceptions should and could be made for those that could greatly benefit our country and who have made the steps to do things right.
The AZ law is an attempt by the people of the State of AZ to untie the hands of our police officers. The feds do nothing, and our police are powerless to do anything until something violent happens. We shouldn't have to wait to prosecute criminals until they shed the blood of our citizens and yet it happens, time and time again. The govt shouldn't have let it get to a point where the states are having to pass laws to protect themselves because they wont or cant do the job they are responsible for.
hakr100
Android Expert
What do Arizona police do when they pick up someone for a violation and that someone cannot produce any sort of valid paperwork?
ballisticn8
Android Expert
Under the current system once the police learn that the person in question is an illegal they can only ask them their name and address and fwd that information to ICE. They can arrest them and charge them with whatever they have for the case but often times people are released until court dates or the charges aren't brought up until there is enough evidence to support a case. They vanish...
What SB1070 does is allow the police to prosecute them being here as a state violation. You're here illegally in the US and in AZ, well, thats now a state crime so we will hold you and prosecute you for violating state laws unless the Feds would like to step in and prosecute you under Federal Law. Thats why there is such a fuss about this law with the Feds. If it passes its put up or shut up time for ICE. It sheds a light on how often the current system lets offenders get off because the local police are powerless to do anything and the Feds are so out of touch, understaffed, or don't care enough that they do nothing. If the Feds take the case and decide not to prosecute then they are returned to the custody of AZ to be prosecuted for violating state law.
hakr100
Android Expert
Well, no wonder the feds are pursuing this in court. That seems an obvious violation of the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution, Article VI, Clause 2:
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
and the part of the 14th Amendment that says:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."
It seems to me that if Arizona were not satisfied with the way the federal government were enforcing a law, it could initiate a lawsuit in U.S. District Court. Being in the U.S.A. illegally is a federal crime, not a state crime.
My guess is that Arizona's new law will be declared unConstitutional if it is as you describe, because the state of Arizona is stepping on the U.S.A.'s cape.
TheBeardedMann
Well-Known Member
Come on now, that's just dumb. So assault, arson, etc. cannot be put into a State's list of crimes because they are federal crimes? Why did you quote the 14th???? It says citizens of the United States!
Why is this new law freaking everyone out? I really, really don't understand what is so bad about it. They are illegal.
And about initiating a lawsuit, some people like to take care of problems where they are and not in a US court room. The problem is in Arizona, so the US citizens voted, and now they will take care of it. And hopefully the Federal Government will help out and not make matters worse.
ballisticn8
Android Expert
Your argument is full of holes and quite ridiculous. There are many crimes that can be prosecuted at state and federal levels, just because a state decides to pass a law doesnt mean its usurping or curtailing existing federal laws. There are so many laws that are upheld by states and the feds that mirror each other in order to help enforcement, why is this one any different? Its not prohibiting the Federal Gov from prosecuting illegal immigrants by any means is it? You honestly cant say that it is going against existing federal law you know, like the sanctuary cities that refuse to cooperate or prosecute illegal immigrants. Using your own quote of the constitution the fed govt would be more suited to sue the sanctuary cities as those cities are actually going against existing federal laws by refusing to prosecute or cooperate with federal agents. The fact that the feds are suing AZ is completely and utterly ridiculous and your argument about AZ law violating a supremacy clause is bu||sh!t, the feds should have sued the state of CA and its sanctuary cities a decade ago using your argument as they are the ones competing against and violating existing federal laws.
In fact, the feds using your quote and stance would be better suited to sue and go after all the states and cities that have legalized marijuana for medicinal purposes. I mean hell, if you want to throw out the supremacy clause as to states passing laws that violate or go against or compete with existing federal laws why dont you do it in an unbiased way instead of trying to pass your own partys agenda?
Are we really competing with the feds like the sanctuary cities are since they are actually violating federal laws or have we just made our own law that goes hand in hand with the feds so when they decide not to pursue charges we can do so at a state level?
http://www.rantrave.com/rant/what-about-those-sanctuary-cities.aspx
Dr. Shady PhD
Member
Oh please they don't just check Mexicans randomly. And no, they should and will stay in America. BTW i'm Mexican