the progressive snapshot

[mplevy]

It's only a positive if you have ample money to pay a very good lawyer to make sure that the data is interpreted fairly.

Here's the scary part:

Traditional techniques like measuring skid distances can be used to determine vehicle speed. Why would the EDR data be so different?

When I was younger and drive more cars with automatic transmissions and poor tires, it was not uncommon to get your 120 MPH speedo pinned while you're spinning your wheels, going nowhere. It's possible to be a driver on a slippery road, who's crawling along with your wheels spinning, and have an out-of-control driver at speed slam into you, killing a passenger. You're badly injured but the other driver walks away from the wreck, and proceeds to lie up a storm, telling a story that blames you.

Between the ice-covered road and the tracks made by the emergency vehicles, the physical evidence was destroyed. The cops should have preserved it, but to cover up their mistake they suggest using the EDR in your car (the other one doesn't have one). They see the 100MPH+ speed numbers and you're toast. You wake up in a prison hospital to learn that you've been convicted in absentia of voluntary manslaughter.

Think it can't happen? The real question is "would you bet your future on it?"

When an airliner crashes, the pilots get a lot of support from the pilot's union. In practically every crash, all other parties (the airlines, the plane manufacturer etc.) are reliant on each-other for business, but are more than happy to throw the pilot to the wolves as the scapegoat. The pilots have to fight hard for fair treatment. And all too often "pilot error" is stamped as the primary cause, even though every plane crash has a complex cause.

As a driver, you don't have a union to back you up, and because hundreds of millions of dollars aren't on the line and car crashes are far more frequent, you're not going to get the kind of attention to detail that plane crashes get. But interested parties like the auto maker would rather it's you who gets the blame. I wouldn't want to risk my freedom on such a slippery slope!

Bit of a stretch there, no? Despite the poor conditions and lack of crime scene preservation in your little story, there's a good chance a person with common sense could deduce what happened based on the damage to the vehicles.

Here's the way I see the "black boxes", if you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide? Yes, you should review your insurance policy and make sure you haven't signed that they can use the data without further permission, but the cops and the court need a court order or your permission to review the data. However, some of us (myself included) have likely not physically signed anything to agree to ANYTHING different than what they originally agreed to when the policy was put in place (around 10 years and 2+ vehicles ago in my case).

Unless things have changed, the EDR will only maintain crash data if the airbags deploy. I was rear-ended last June, neither vehicle had airbag deployment (though his hood crumpled nicely). For all the cops know, I slammed on my brakes because the guy was riding too close (this was absolutely not the case, just making an example) but because there was no airbag deployment that data isn't recorded so it's a he-said-he-said situation.

For what it's worth, I'm on Nationwide, and even with employer discounts or other "promotional" discounts, other providers can't beat the reates I'm paying, based on the quick quotes on their sites. Under $1000 a year for full coverage on a brand new vehicle (well it's 18 months old now) and renter's insurance.

 

[Speed Daemon]

Bit of a stretch there, no?

Considering that I was using an actual crash that happened yesterday as my template, no it's not at all a stretch.

there's a good chance a person with common sense could deduce what happened based on the damage to the vehicles.

I must take notice of the fact that you can't possibly have any idea about what the chances are. It's wishful thinking, nothing more. And as I already explained, the system isn't based on common sense.

Here's the way I see the "black boxes", if you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide?

That argument has been debunked so many times that it's not even worth discussion. The Fifth Amendment protections against self-incrimination are proof positive that innocent people do in fact have a legitimate need to hide things in an adversarial justice system.

You're free to trust the system with blind faith if you like. But I sure wouldn't!

 

[Speed Daemon]

I'm with Speed. I like Speed... I seem to agree with you a lot. lol

That's good. Just keep on agreeing and everything will be fine. It would be a shame if you met with some unfortunate...accident, capice?

j/k, the feeling is mutual!

Did you guys see that former FBI (or was it CIA) agent who tried to remove Onstar?
I can't find the article now, but he had to gut nearly every electronic device in the car to finally completely kill it.

Can't say I have, but from what I know about Onstar, once you kill the cellular radio, it can't do much.

 

[dibblebill]

Well, I can't find the story anymore, as I said, so I'm not sure how much stock to put into it now. The gist of it was that the system he had was still at least storing GPS information that could later be retreived.

 

[cammykool]

I can't believe anybody would allow their insurance company to place a tracking device in their car. It's not just Progressive, either, all of the major companies are are either planning or have their own programs. I was shocked when I read an article last week stating that something like 76% of people would do this to save a few bucks. Sure it might be voluntary now, but how long before the insurance industry lobbyists stuff enough money into government pockets to have this mandated? Wake up, people. This cannot end well unless people stand up and say "hell, no!"

I'll drive my car any way I damn well please, thank you very much.

if you have a car with OBD1 then they cant OBD1 doesnt give that information

 

[Gmash]

I cringe whenever I hear somebody say "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide" or something similar. That's the first step to a police state.

 

[Speed Daemon]

Well, I can't find the story anymore, as I said, so I'm not sure how much stock to put into it now. The gist of it was that the system he had was still at least storing GPS information that could later be retreived.

Yes, there are lots of computers in cars these days, and each of them stores some amount of data. It's the same with airliners, BTW. People think of "the black box", but the fact of the matter is that there are often several places where data is stored and can be retrieved with the proper tools.

Onstar is particularly odious because its GPS receiver isn't necessarily used to give the driver information, so many people don't even know that they have GPS tracking, and the GPS hardware can be hidden anywhere in the car. If I was an intelligence operative, I'd try to avoid cars that have that stuff!

My latest car has no less than three engine and drivetrain computers, not counting the one that's inside the transmission. As well as controlling the engine (with its electronic throttle), transmission and torque vectoring transfer case, it controls the ABS, traction control, roll and yaw control! And it has GPS with a "breadcrumb" feature that shows me on the screen where I've been. It's a little creepy, because it remember places months after the last time I was there! But at least it gives me a big clue that it's storing all that data.

 

[pbf98]

Don't forget about RF chips in tires now!

I do like on* they offer a lot (to me) I am often forgetful and who hasn't locked their keys in their car at least once? I haven't since I've had onstar but its still useful to know its just a phone call away and the doors will be unlocked, or by using my smartphone. I have used the navigation many times, when I'm in a town I'm not familiar with and I want to know whats around me to eat, i just press the button and they can tell me the restaurants in the area as wells as give me directions to them. If someone steals my car, I can call them and they will disable the vehicle and inform the authorities where my car is. And if I'm in a crash late at night on a road where no one is driving and I'm to badly injured to call for help, on* is there for me. The last one is what really gets me having lost my first girlfriend to a car accident, got the call at 4am from her mom saying she was at the hospital but there wasn't much to do at that point. That is a major life changing event for a 20y/o, or anyone for that matter. That is why I am a little more lenient with the idea of some of my data in my car being recorded and being monitored

 

[Speed Daemon]

Sorry for your loss, pbf98. That's tough news to get at any age.

I have never once lost my keys, or locked them in my car by accident. I'm the classical Boy Scout: always prepared. I'm the type who used to update the paper maps in my car nearly as fastidiously as pilots updated their Jeppesen charts. I still buy paper maps and print out Google Maps directions as backups. I guess that comes from back when I was the one who used to rescue people who broke down, got lost, locked out or in an accident. If I'm in a strange town and I'm hungry, I absolutely go old school and strike up a conversation with people.

I don't have anything against Onstar, or people using it. It seems like a nice service to have, even if they couldn't help Jeremy Clarkson when he was attacked by "fighter planes" in last week's "Top Gear" (UK) episode. It's just not something that I'd use enough to justify the expense. I was nonplussed by the copious gadgetry in my latest vehicle. But if you like it, that's fine by me!

 

[pbf98]

They recently added a feature for people to use, for an additional fee you can track your own vehicle. So parents can spy on their kids haha.

I have used it enough to justify the expense, plus if any lights come on, I don't need to bring it in to get the code read out, just press the button and they can tell me what the error code is as well as what it means. I wouldn't really need that because I have a bluetooth OBDII reader which connects to my phone, but its another useful feature. My only complaint about them is the cost of their minutes for the phone calling feature, it was cheap for my first 6 months $12 for 300 minutes, but after that was up I never renewed that

 

[Speed Daemon]

The power tuners that I use on both of my cars also read p-codes, and one of them has an app so I can use my Android devices to monitor all sorts of parameters in real time. When I lived in Illinois, it was very handy to be able to clear any spurious codes before going into the IEPA testing station.

I've seen several "spy on your kids" products from a variety of manufacturers. The first ones were stand-alone devices that the parent could hide inside the car, then remove it and read out the data from accelerometers. Newer ones have full-time radio (usually cellular, but the high-ends one do satellite too) contact, complete with the ability to put a "nanny cam" in the car and do stuff like take over the car stereo to do everything from turn the volume down (every parent's dream) to talk over it. I can only imagine what I'd do if I was driving along and suddenly heard one of my parents' voices inside the car! I'd think that "feature" probably causes crashes!

Speaking of cameras, one night when I was getting a ride to the hospital from a pair of patrol cops, we started talking about the dash cam in their cars. It was interesting that one guy actually admitted (ruefully) that he didn't like the fact that the cameras don't discriminate in whose bad behavior they record! Then yesterday I learned that dash cams are common in Russia. They didn't say why, but I'm guessing that people use them to prove who's at fault if they get into a crash. I want that for my car! In my case, it would be a guarantee that nobody hit me ever again. LOL

 

[dibblebill]

The power tuners that I use on both of my cars also read p-codes, and one of them has an app so I can use my Android devices to monitor all sorts of parameters in real time. When I lived in Illinois, it was very handy to be able to clear any spurious codes before going into the IEPA testing station.

I've seen several "spy on your kids" products from a variety of manufacturers. The first ones were stand-alone devices that the parent could hide inside the car, then remove it and read out the data from accelerometers. Newer ones have full-time radio (usually cellular, but the high-ends one do satellite too) contact, complete with the ability to put a "nanny cam" in the car and do stuff like take over the car stereo to do everything from turn the volume down (every parent's dream) to talk over it. I can only imagine what I'd do if I was driving along and suddenly heard one of my parents' voices inside the car! I'd think that "feature" probably causes crashes!

Speaking of cameras, one night when I was getting a ride to the hospital from a pair of patrol cops, we started talking about the dash cam in their cars. It was interesting that one guy actually admitted (ruefully) that he didn't like the fact that the cameras don't discriminate in whose bad behavior they record! Then yesterday I learned that dash cams are common in Russia. They didn't say why, but I'm guessing that people use them to prove who's at fault if they get into a crash. I want that for my car! In my case, it would be a guarantee that nobody hit me ever again. LOL

Couple reasons. One, google 'driving in russia'. You'll see why. DEFINITELY to prove who caused the crash.

Two, because apparently they ahve an issue with people running into PARKED or STOPPED cars and claiming it hit them.

 

[Speed Daemon]

Couple reasons. One, google 'driving in russia'. You'll see why. DEFINITELY to prove who caused the crash.

Two, because apparently they ahve an issue with people running into PARKED or STOPPED cars and claiming it hit them.

Thanks! I figured it had to be something like that.

In the years that I drove professionally (road service, towing, delivery, bonded courier) I've seen lots of dirty tricks. I've lost track of how many times insurance scammers have tried the "scoop and squat" on me. Only once did they manage to make contact, which caused me to spin out on a busy 6-lane highway. They ran, and I had to replace a headlight assembly myself. Man, would I have loved to have a dash cam back then!!!

 

[Gmash]

You could always just use your phone. Check out this thread:

http://androidforums.com/samsung-ga...e-their-phones-camera-film-while-driving.html

 

[dibblebill]

Around where I live, there's a taxi company that I always have to avoid and dodge. They cut you off, pull out in front of you, things like that. Last night, picked up my pizza from Papa John's, and complained about their delivery man in front of him. He tailgated me, cut off someone in the next lane, tailgated someone, cut off another person, then zipped into the parking lot. In the store, he was bragging about it all. So I filed a complaint. Just because you have a Toyota Celica doesn't give you the privilege of driving like a jerk.

 

[Speed Daemon]

When I lived in Chicago, the taxi drivers were downright scary. Made Travis Bickle look tame and level-headed by comparison. What's worse, the Chicago Mob protects them, so woe be it to anyone who tries to get one of these thugs' license pulled! I learned this the hard way!

 

[rimshot66]

I have that thing too. It doesn't save big money. I've had it for 6mons now and saved about 9.00 on my Insurance. I don'really drive alot and when I do its only to the store .So whats the purpose of it for $9.00 savings..fuc----.....