Ubuntu Sufferers

[nickdalzell]

I never meant to imply that 60 GB was for Linux, if I used VectorLinux, i would prefer more than 20 to hold any data and give room. It's my preference. It's not 20 years ago, I'm not using some old Linux, I am trying to use one capable of running most of my applications, while falling back to windows for games and apps which won't currently work. And with only 60 GB free out of 250, that would limit the room left for Windows. that is, if I wanted to risk splitting it and pray the boot loader for dual booting doesn't fail somehow--tried that once in another win7 box and it told me error loading operating system. Even Fdisk /MBR wouldn't fix it. Lost a ton of stuff in that instance alone! In that attempt, GRUB claimed to install successfully to the master boot record. Rebooting it said error loading operating system. Assuming that the windows partition was likely still intact, I tried installing a second time using the same partition layout, using LiLo the next time. It rebooted but died after 'LI' and never finished loading.

 

[mikedt]

I never meant to imply that 60 GB was for Linux, if I used VectorLinux, i would prefer more than 20 to hold any data and give room. It's my preference. It's not 20 years ago, I'm not using some old Linux, I am trying to use one capable of running most of my applications, while falling back to windows for games and apps which won't currently work. And with only 60 GB free out of 250, that would limit the room left for Windows. that is, if I wanted to risk splitting it and pray the boot loader for dual booting doesn't fail somehow--tried that once in another win7 box and it told me error loading operating system. Even Fdisk /MBR wouldn't fix it. Lost a ton of stuff in that instance alone! In that attempt, GRUB claimed to install successfully to the master boot record.

This is why you backup, backup, backup!!! Because you never know what might happen to your precious data. Use external hard drive, and store it in the cloud for extra security if you want. Your hard drive could die, your PC could be stolen. You might have to re-format and re-install Windows because it decided to collapse and self-destruct for some reason.

TBH I sometimes wonder if my Windows is going to come back up after the second Tuesday updates and reboot. Linux most updates are done without rebooting at all, except for kernel updates. You might have to logout and log back in, that's all.

 

[nickdalzell]

Unless you got one of the more mainstream Linux distros that cripple themselves when the Dev thinks they're 'too old' (Ubuntu *cough*) and I despise product life cycles. Ill upgrade when I feel like it damnit just let me update anyway!

 

[mikedt]

Unless you got one of the more mainstream Linux distros that cripple themselves

when the Dev thinks they're 'too old' (Ubuntu *cough*) and I despise product life cycles.

it costs real money to go on supporting older products indefinately.

Does Vector Linux go on supporting their older OS releases indefinately? Do they still maintain a repository for Vector Linux 1.0? And who's paying for the continued development and support for this OS?

 

[Speed Daemon]

GNOME is a desktop environment. So is KDE. So is Unity. So is Enlightenment. And XFCE. And Fluxbox. And...a bunch of others. They're the TOTAL environment that you see and use when you boot up your Linux box.

It may be useful to point out that GNOME and KDE are a lot more than the traditional X Window System window manager. The UNIX paradigm differs from monolithic products like OSX and Windows in that they're modular and interchangeable. There are two main X servers (XFree86 and X.org) for Linux. There have been commercial X servers for Linux before the FOSS servers got so good. And there are literally dozens of X window managers.

What sets GNOME and KDE apart from just window managers is that both provide a lot more than just window management. Things like an integrated sound server and inter-process communications (things that are built into OSX and Windows) come with complete operating environments, and don't come with most simple window managers. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but as a rule, GNOME and KDE make Linux distributions as easy to use as OSX or Windows.

 

[nickdalzell]

Mike, yes, Vectorlinux 6.x while 4 years old still has an updated repo. I can still install Flash 11 on it without having to compile source code. I cannot explain it. I had XUbuntu a short time, heard it was great for Windows converts and I wanted to see what it was all about. but all I can say is that like Mac OS X, when it's considered 'unsupported' the built-in software updater won't function, tells me I HAVE to upgrade, and the built-in package installer won't show any new apps. so unless I want to do it 'the hard way' I can't upgrade much. I don't like OS crippling itself or nagging me to update and forcing apps to not install until I do. and it was only one of the limits. if I go back to Linux on a daily use basis, i'm not touching Ubuntu. I despise product lifecycles. I despise planned obsolescence. I will reiterate, i'll upgrade when I feel like it. would you want Ford or some other car maker basically telling you to buy a brand new car when the odometer reaches 100,000 miles and having mechanics refuse to touch it until you do?

 

[mikedt]

Mike, yes, Vectorlinux 6.x while 4 years old still has an updated repo.

Does version 5.x or 4.x and older still have updated repos and not declared obsolete?

I can still install Flash 11 on it without having to compile source code. I cannot explain it. I had XUbuntu a short time, heard it was great for Windows converts and I wanted to see what it was all about. but all I can say is that like Mac OS X, when it's considered 'unsupported' the built-in software updater won't function, tells me I HAVE to upgrade, and the built-in package installer won't show any new apps. so unless I want to do it 'the hard way' I can't upgrade much. I don't like OS crippling itself or nagging me to update and forcing apps to not install until I do. and it was only one of the limits. if I go back to Linux on a daily use basis, i'm not touching Ubuntu. I despise product lifecycles.

I bet Vector Linux has a product support lifecycle as well. Are they still supporting the older releases like 5.9 from 2007. (source DistroWatch).

I despise planned obsolescence. I will reiterate, i'll upgrade when I feel like it.

You'll probably find VL has planned obsolescence as well. Sure you can keep on going and it will still work, but you'll have to rely on downloading updates, dependencies, bug-fixes from other sources rather than the official repos. (doing it 'the hard way')

would you want Ford or some other car maker basically telling you to buy a brand new car when the odometer reaches 100,000 miles and having mechanics refuse to touch it until you do?

You can do 100,000 miles in a year. I've done that. And mechanics will service a 100,000 mile one year old car no problem.

I like car analogies.

So what would you think if the Ford mechanic told you, sorry we can't fix or service your car because it's too old and Ford no longer supplies the required parts? - even if it's only got 20,000 miles on it Which is what happens when cars are too old. You'll have to buy a new car, or rely on third-party parts, provided they're available, and arranging or doing the servicing yourself.

 

[mikedt]

Vector sadly cannot install to an sd card or boot as a live cd I have tried. Also, only 60GB remains after subtracting all the backup files and data

Downloads — VectorLinux.com

VL 7.0 Standard Live Edition
Take the latest release of VectorLinux with you, or test the system before installing. This Live CD ships the same features of the installable disk.

http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/veclinux-7.0/iso-release/VL7.0-STD-GOLD-LIVE.iso

 

[nickdalzell]

I haven't used 7.0, but I could try, but I do prefer a CLI environment when I login. never liked the default login to X. especially if something goes wrong on the video, it would make the entire system unbootable. the CLI gives maximum compatibility and remains usable if I do something that brings down the X server (which is often. I love toying with it)

 

[MoodyBlues]

Nick, you're believing as FACT things that you don't understand. In other words, YOU think something can't be done, or YOU think something happens at a certain time, and then you call it FACT.

Unless you got one of the more mainstream Linux distros that cripple themselves when the Dev thinks they're 'too old' (Ubuntu *cough*)

As I've said, I've used *buntu since its first release and have NO idea what you're talking about. As I've also said, I have yet to upgrade Kubuntu 9.04 on my mom's computer, and it's working just fine. It continues to notify regarding needed/preferred updates. THAT is a fact.

and I despise product life cycles. Ill upgrade when I feel like it damnit just let me update anyway!

See above.

I had XUbuntu a short time, heard it was great for Windows converts and I wanted to see what it was all about. but all I can say is that like Mac OS X, when it's considered 'unsupported' the built-in software updater won't function, tells me I HAVE to upgrade

See above.

and the built-in package installer won't show any new apps.

See above.

I don't like OS crippling itself

Again, I have yet to see this happen with *buntu.

or nagging me to update and forcing apps to not install until I do.

It's doing that for a reason. As changes and improvements are made, and as glitches/bugs/security holes/etc. are fixed, it's in your own best interest to update. If you're an old *nix geek like me, and know what you're doing in terms of keeping your network safe and running properly, it becomes less important. That's why I haven't yet, and probably never will!, upgrade 9.04 on my mom's computer. It's not causing any problems, and she doesn't know or care about latest and greatest versions, so why bother?

and it was only one of the limits. if I go back to Linux on a daily use basis, i'm not touching Ubuntu.

Too bad you're so misinformed about *buntu. By taking this anti-*buntu stance, you're depriving yourself of *THE* best supported Linux distro. I mean in terms of user base, help easily and widely available, etc.

I despise product lifecycles. I despise planned obsolescence.

Then m$ must infuriate you! No one does planned obsolescence better than micro$oft.

I will reiterate, i'll upgrade when I feel like it. would you want Ford or some other car maker basically telling you to buy a brand new car when the odometer reaches 100,000 miles and having mechanics refuse to touch it until you do?

Yet again, see above.

I haven't used 7.0, but I could try, but I do prefer a CLI environment when I login. never liked the default login to X.

Again, you're stating as fact something YOU believe to be true. This isn't windows. Anything you want to do should be possible on Linux.

especially if something goes wrong on the video, it would make the entire system unbootable.

No, it wouldn't. Again, you're stating as fact a misconception YOU have.

the CLI gives maximum compatibility and remains usable if I do something that brings down the X server (which is often. I love toying with it)

BTW, does anyone know how many micro$oft programmers it takes to replace a bad light bulb? It can't be done! You'll have to upgrade your house. :laugh:

 

[nickdalzell]

ok so far i got my dead PS3's hard drive in my old Acer Aspire laptop and i managed to get Mandriva 2010 up and running, for what it's worth, only one year newer than Vector. i am fresh out of CD-Rs as it's been over ten years since i last burned a CD. where can i find some of those sims you mentioned earlier Moody?

I know product lifecycle policies are MS territory. which is why they do NOT belong in Linux. Ubuntu or otherwise. there is no reason to force me to upgrade if i actually want to update some app i use. if it ain't broke, why fix it? why make me upgrade the entire distro to update say Adobe Flash? or Firefox? what if the interface is drastically different than what i am used to? i'm not someone who takes kindly to sudden change.

 

[mikedt]

I haven't used 7.0, but I could try, but I do prefer a CLI environment when I login. never liked the default login to X. especially if something goes wrong on the video, it would make the entire system unbootable.

You might be thinking of Windows here. Because if something does go wrong with the video on Windows, you're more or less dead in the water. You probably will have to re-install. A Linux OS does NOT become unbootable if X doesn't start. You will get the CLI and be able fix whatever you did("toying with it") that stopped X from running.

the CLI gives maximum compatibility and remains usable if I do something that brings down the X server (which is often. I love toying with it)

Which is something Windows does not have, if the GUI fails for whatever reasons, e.g. toying wih it, buggy proprietary graphics drivers, etc.

 

[mikedt]

ok so far i got my dead PS3's hard drive in my old Acer Aspire laptop and i managed to get Mandriva 2010 up and running, for what it's worth, only one year newer than Vector. i am fresh out of CD-Rs as it's been over ten years since i last burned a CD. where can i find some of those sims you mentioned earlier Moody?

Doesn't the laptop support booting from USB? It must be really old, like ten years or more, and is more than likely running XP? Good luck with any software that requires Vista, 7 or 8.

I know product lifecycle policies are MS territory. which is why they do NOT belong in Linux. Ubuntu or otherwise. there is no reason to force me to upgrade if i actually want to update some app i use. if it ain't broke, why fix it? why make me upgrade the entire distro to update say Adobe Flash? or Firefox?

As I said before, supporting old legacy products costs real money. You can't really complain since you apparently despise paying for software so much.

Going back to car analogies. Would you expect Ford to supply spares and be able to service and fix a 1923 Model T or a 1958 Edsel? Of course not.

what if the interface is drastically different than what i am used to? i'm not someone who takes kindly to sudden change.

That's easy, you just choose a desktop environment you're used to. If you're used to say KDE, then use KDE. Which something you can't do with Windows. If there's a radical change, e.g. you changed to Windows 8 from XP, maybe because you bought a new PC because the old one died. That's the Windows version and UI you're forced to use.

That's the great thing with a Linux OS, you're not forced to use the one UI that MS says you must use, you have a choice.

Do you remember how Windows XP was always doing those annoying popup balloons, "There are unused icons on your desktop." and then it would offer to clean them up? That used to annoy the hell out of me.

 

[MoodyBlues]

i am fresh out of CD-Rs as it's been over ten years since i last burned a CD.

Perhaps you should get back into the habit. Then you can easily back up those important files you're banking on being safe...even though hard drive failures happen all the time.

where can i find some of those sims you mentioned earlier Moody?

I did?

I know product lifecycle policies are MS territory. which is why they do NOT belong in Linux. Ubuntu or otherwise.

I've already explained why they're continually upgrading, so I won't bother repeating myself.

there is no reason to force me to upgrade if i actually want to update some app i use. if it ain't broke, why fix it? why make me upgrade the entire distro to update say Adobe Flash? or Firefox?

You're blaming the Linux distro(s) for this? If the latest version of Flash or Firefox or whatever REQUIRES something that isn't available in an older version of a Linux distro...what do you suggest the Linux distro do? Also, do you expect new software to be backwardly compatible to infinity with old versions of windows? Try running some current windows-based software on a windows 3.1 box and let me know how it goes, okay?

what if the interface is drastically different than what i am used to? i'm not someone who takes kindly to sudden change.

Then you pick from the ZILLIONS of desktop environments and/or window managers available for Linux. Unlike on windows...

 

[nickdalzell]

You did mention Flightgear and others in one other thread. i just got Flightgear installed but it's very unstable. not sure if it's my old Linux, my hardware, or if i got a buggy version, it was whatever was available on the repo in Mandriva, in RPM format. the graphics tend to glitch and some of the view options cause it to exit. i'll have to try others to know for sure. but flightgear if it worked well enough looked like a suitable possible replacement to FSX

 

[MoodyBlues]

You did mention Flightgear and others in one other thread.

Sorry, brain fart on my part. I thought you meant SIMs like in a SIM card that goes in a phone.

i just got Flightgear installed but it's very unstable. not sure if it's my old Linux, my hardware, or if i got a buggy version, it was whatever was available on the repo in Mandriva, in RPM format. the graphics tend to glitch and some of the view options cause it to exit. i'll have to try others to know for sure. but flightgear if it worked well enough looked like a suitable possible replacement to FSX

FlightGear played great on the 1 year old laptop [running Kubuntu 11.04] I put it on; graphics were smooth as can be, nothing caused unexpected exits, etc. So I'm guessing that you're having problems because of any/all of the things you mentioned.

I may install it on my 6 year old laptop [running Bodhi 2.1.0] just to see how/if it plays on it.

 

[mikedt]

You did mention Flightgear and others in one other thread. i just got Flightgear installed but it's very unstable. not sure if it's my old Linux, my hardware, or if i got a buggy version, it was whatever was available on the repo in Mandriva, in RPM format. the graphics tend to glitch and some of the view options cause it to exit. i'll have to try others to know for sure. but flightgear if it worked well enough looked like a suitable possible replacement to FSX

I think Flight Gear is a rather demanding application, the better your graphics and CPU, the better it performs. It's unplayable on my 2012 Lenovo budget laptop.

On the other hand MS Flight Sim X is seven years old, and is now discontinued, unsupported by MS and end of life. It was designed for XP, and probably runs OK on older legacy systems.

If Microsoft's legacy end of life software and games, doesn't work with their current OS's, e.g. Windows 7 and 8. Hard luck!!

 

[9to5cynic]

@nick, considering your dislike for updates, have you considered a rolling release distro? Those have you update constantly and as such are able to be run for a long time. Example: Arch linux, the devs only release new install medium after major changes, (like switching to systemd), so some people have ancient installs that are just as current as if you installed it today.

Or maybe even a long term install, one that would be supported for a several years. I think under one of the red hat derivatives gnome 2 will be supported until 2015 or some odd number.

Hope that helps a bit, but it does sound like you've now got something your comfortable with

 

[Speed Daemon]

You might be thinking of Windows here. Because if something does go wrong with the video on Windows, you're more or less dead in the water. You probably will have to re-install. A Linux OS does NOT become unbootable if X doesn't start. You will get the CLI and be able fix whatever you did("toying with it") that stopped X from running.

Ditto.

I've been running Linux since 1995 and kernel 1.0.3, back when XFree86 didn't support many video cards very well and many not at all. It's been a long time since then. Many current Linux distributions not only have basic VESA support for all but the most obscure video cards, and come with factory support for AMD and NVIDIA cards.

Because the X Window System is completely separate from the bootloader, the Linux kernel and the shell, a misconfigured X server simply can't bring down the others. At the worst, it can cause the hardware to freeze up, but even that is easy to circumvent. See here. Note that Ubuntu and derivatives are less compatible with the traditional UNIX paradigm.

For the rare Linux distribution that doesn't allow modifications to boot-time arguments, a rescue disk will let the user boot from optical disc or USB drive and mount the installed Linux filesystem and edit the /etc/inittab file.

I know lots of people who, for whatever reasons, want to do everything through a shell, even these hard core users use a minimal X installation to run xterms in. The Ctrl-F? (where "?" is a number for a function key) way of switching between consoles (Ctrl-Alt-F? sometimes) is handy, but does have limitations.

 

[MoodyBlues]

Ditto to everything Speed Daemon said--except I've used Linux since its 0.01 release in 1991.

I think this whole thing with Nick is that he simply doesn't understand HOW Linux works. That plus he's declaring as truths things he's seen and assumed had no solution when, in fact, if he knew more about Linux he'd know he could've been in complete control. I do like his tenacity, though.

 

[MoodyBlues]

I think Flight Gear is a rather demanding application, the better your graphics and CPU, the better it performs. It's unplayable on my 2012 Lenovo budget laptop.

I should have mentioned the laptop I installed it on is an HP dv7t. I'm not even into flight simulation games, but some of those I installed the other day were pretty cool, including FlightGear. And they all looked and played spectacularly well.

On the other hand MS Flight Sim X is seven years old, and is now discontinued, unsupported by MS and end of life. It was designed for XP, and probably runs OK on older legacy systems.

If Microsoft's legacy end of life software and games, doesn't work with their current OS's, e.g. Windows 7 and 8. Hard luck!!

 

[nickdalzell]

According to Flightgear's wiki, it only supports so many video chipsets, and the Intel 810 in the Acer is just not up to the task. if i recall, FSX was unplayable as well, it often caused the laptop to freeze up. i am trying some things out with the same copy of Linux on my Samsung (it managed to dual boot just fine) and i'll let you know. it has a quad-core ATI chipset which seems to be on the list of supported video chipsets, so that's good news.

Even with FSX being quite old, it has pretty heavy demands. even on my brand new Toshiba (also an AMD/ATI chipset) while far better looking and playable than on my Samsung, it still seems to have a few 'blurries'. and it does run fine on Windows 8, which i must admit surprised me. as it's a 32-bit program running on a 64-bit OS

as for being in complete control, this is why i'm trying this again. i am sure Linux has gained even more ground than it did 5 or so years back. it sure does look dazzling on a 17" LCD. forgot i even had this Mandriva disc lying around.

Regarding X bringing down the system, this actually DID happen long ago, especially if it's configured to start X by default and use a gdm login. if it couldn't get into gdm, for whatever reason, i couldn't login, and it would usually just keep trying again and again to get into gdm and fail. besides, i have grown accustomed to the CLI as a default login option, and sadly, even Mandriva here did not allow me to choose that at install-time, and i am not sure how i'd go about making it default now. i am not too comfortable with it defaulting to X, again, personal preference; a holdover from the days when Linux and i were first getting to know each other, and the CLI was the only option for those without X support (which was quite minimal in the late 1990s). in fact, if you had joined a Linux forum in those days, they were pretty hot-headed with people who disliked the CLI, and even more tempermental for those who preferred X. they would claim that X Windows was Linux trying to be more like MS Windows, and they were not taking to fondly to that. they would exclaim that 'X is for n00bs' and 'X is for Windows people' and so on. so while i was pretty new to the CLI and fell into their hate camp often, i eventually grew used to it. after the shock of thinking i was back in DOS again wore off, that is. the CLI actually was quite usable. especially when you get a graphical web browser with javascript support to run on it, it can look as good as any Windows browser.

 

[mikedt]

I should have mentioned the laptop I installed it on is an HP dv7t. I'm not even into flight simulation games, but some of those I installed the other day were pretty cool, including FlightGear. And they all looked and played spectacularly well.

My very budget 10inch Lenovo S110, to be fair is probably more of a netbook than a laptop. Although it's dual-core CPU and 2GB RAM, but it does have Intel GMA graphics. So it's not really suitable for gaming. Flight Gear ran at about 4FPS, but doesn't crash though it's stable. ExtremeTuxRacer is just about playable. It runs Google Earth OK though, as well as the Linux astronomy applications Stellarium and Celestia, which are quite graphics intensive.

I mainly use it for office productivity, teaching in the classroom, videos, music, podcasts, Skype, QQ and browsing.

 

[nickdalzell]

FWIW, this is a screencap of the graphic problems running Flightgear on my Acer Aspire T-series, with Intel 810 video, a shame since it has a very nice HD-quality 17" screen on it.

 

[MoodyBlues]

as for being in complete control, this is why i'm trying this again.

I'm glad you are.

i am sure Linux has gained even more ground than it did 5 or so years back.

The thing is, Linux has *ALWAYS* been 100% customizable/controllable, so it didn't need to gain any ground. And, of course, it's always been light-years ahead of m$.

it sure does look dazzling on a 17" LCD. forgot i even had this Mandriva disc lying around.

This blog post I wrote is 2-1/2 years old now, but if you're inclined take a look. It has quite a few screenshots from one of my then-current Linux distros. Also, take a look at this post in the Let's see your desktop! thread; it has some shots from the laptop I'm typing this on, which is running Kubuntu 11.04.

Regarding X bringing down the system, this actually DID happen long ago, especially if it's configured to start X by default and use a gdm login. if it couldn't get into gdm, for whatever reason, i couldn't login, and it would usually just keep trying again and again to get into gdm and fail.

Yes, you COULD log in...you just didn't know which magical key combination to press.

besides, i have grown accustomed to the CLI as a default login option, and sadly, even Mandriva here did not allow me to choose that at install-time

Since I haven't used Mandriva since it was Mandrake, I have no idea how, but I know it can be done. So what if you weren't given the option upon installation? Just change the run level in the appropriate file and you'll be all set. I'd poke around on a Mandriva newsgroup or forum for specifics.

i am not too comfortable with it defaulting to X, again, personal preference; a holdover from the days when Linux and i were first getting to know each other, and the CLI was the only option for those without X support (which was quite minimal in the late 1990s).

in fact, if you had joined a Linux forum in those days, they were pretty hot-headed with people who disliked the CLI, and even more tempermental for those who preferred X. they would claim that X Windows was Linux trying to be more like MS Windows

They must have been misinformed. X Window--and it is window, as in not plural--made its debut back in the early (or mid?) '80s. I know I was using it on Coherent (a UNIX clone I used at home before Linux was born); in fact, I still have the X Window manual that came with the last release I bought of Coherent. So, as usual, it's micro$oft who copied UNIX, not the other way around.