• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

Virtual particles create actual thrust?

EarlyMon

The PearlyMon
"The EM drive is controversial in that it appears to violate conventional physics and the law of conservation of momentum; the engine, invented by British scientist Roger Sawyer, converts electric power to thrust without the need for any propellant by bouncing microwaves within a closed container. So, with no expulsion of propellant, there’s nothing to balance the change in the spacecraft’s momentum during acceleration. Hence the skepticism. But as stated by NASA Eagleworks scientist Harold White:

[T]he EM Drive’s thrust was due to the Quantum Vacuum (the quantum state with the lowest possible energy) behaving like propellant ions behave in a MagnetoHydroDynamics drive (a method electrifying propellant and then directing it with magnetic fields to push a spacecraft in the opposite direction) for spacecraft propulsion."

NASA: EM Drive shown to work in space-like vacuum

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/01/1381642/-NASA-EM-Drive-shown-to-work-in-space-like-vacuum

Where's @Hadron?
 
Hmm, not convinced, needs more research. If it does work it would be a huge breakthrough, it would be bigger than the invention of the Internet. In fact only the invention of the wheel would trump it. I can only think that cold fusion would be a greater achievement, that or a 4000mah battery the size and thickness of a postage stamp ;)
 
invention of Fire is the biggest.. I think.

but this would be a huge step towards opening space travel.
it just seems that the propulsion thrust.. would be small.
moving a spacecraft and all it's contents.

a constant force (small).. would still eventual speed up to high velocity.
but to leave the earth's gravity.. would there be enough??
 
If you leave aside the monolithic model where one engine does everything, we're already using an ion drive -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_(spacecraft)

And small scale experiments in breaking away from rest with a photonic drive have been successful.

No idea if any non-chemical rocket will ever reach escape but it would be wonderful if one could. By far most of the weight sitting on the launchpad now is propellant just for launch and escape.
 
Nah we didn't invent fire we discovered it. We invented the wheel on a fixed axle. Fire is almost certainly our greatest discovery though (electricity is up their too).

Indeed an ion drive is being used. Imagine some sort of particle drive able to achieve escape velocity from Earth? It would be fantastic.
 
rock rolling down a hill... inspired the discovery of the wheel.

Fire in the forest.. inspired the need to discover the ability to MAKE your own fire at will.

2nd = wheel
3rd = electricity
4th = internet

5th = true AI (artificial intelligence)
6th = print working human organs/parts for implants
 
Long before electricity -

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes

The lever and fulcrum were discovered by standing in forest fires getting third degree burns while watching flaming trees drop and flip burning logs at the discoverer.

Then there was that whole inclined plane thing that made the pyramids possible. (Inclined planes were discovered watching wheels roll uphill.)

The Archimedean screw was discovered by drunken ancient Egyptians who couldn't follow a straight line and accidentally wrapped Dad's inclined plane around a pole. Trying to hide the evidence, they tried to twist it in to the remains of a hollow log from a forest fire left with one end standing in the Nile except instead of it going down, water came up and created an unprecedented amount of water in a field during the dry season. Dad declared that they discovered irrigation and that led to a crop surplus.

Watching crocodiles float half-submerged on the Nile led to the discovery of boating.

Again, alcohol was involved when several of them raced out on to Mediterranean in Dad's boat to see what that baby could do running flat out.

It sank, so they discovered that repeating excuses work when they got away with telling Dad that they were just trying to dump the excess grain.

That led to the discovery of bigger boats which then led to the discovery of Southern Europe.

Europeans discovered that with more food being imported that they didn't have to die out and become historically insignificant after all.

From there, large scale international crop trading was discovered and later, double entry bookkeeping in Southern Europe (some place called Italy or Venice or something) and that led to the discovery of international banking.

International banking led to the discovery of bank robbery and bank robbery led to the discovery of affiliated kingdoms, which led to the discovery of the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire led to the discovery of history, history led to the discovery of time, and enough time passing led to the discovery of spaghetti in China.

The discovery of spaghetti in China led to the discovery that Gallileo liked keeping an eye out for dinner, so he discovered the telescope and rediscovered the excuse, so he told the bankers that it was to watch ships coming in so you could see if they were low or high in the water and fix stock prices in what was later discovered to be insider trading.

Falling over backward after way too much wine, telescope in hand, led Galileo to discover the sky. Further alcohol led to the discovery of moons around Jupiter.

That led to the discovery of imagining how cool it would be to live on Jupiter and watch a bitchload of moons rising and setting - and that's naturally led to the discovery of space travel.

That's how the new rocket motor got started.

All before electricity.

Unless we add in the fact that Egyptians had already discovered the battery but lost it because they forgot to discover the name for electricity.

Did you read the part where electrons are involved in the new motor?

The danged thing practically built itself.

We just had to wait and discover when it was ready to do that.

:)
 
I'm afraid I was out last night, and would need to do some reading before I could make a serious comment on this. Although vacuum forces are well established (the Casimir effect) I tend to be very cautious of popular science reports of stuff like this.

But for fun, let's assume that it's real and not due to some overlooked effect (imperfect and asymmetric reflection of the microwaves for example). It sounds cool (reminds me vaguely of the engine fields that Culture ships use in Ian Banks' novels, generating traction against the fabric of space), and could provide a more stealthy drive than a rocket, ion or photon exhaust. But that isn't really one of the problems in space flight. So the practical question is how this would compare in efficiency and maximum deliverable power with say firing a big laser out of the back of your craft (another form of "EM drive", using photons directly to generate thrust rather than an asymmetric photon field to transfer a net momentum to vacuum states)? I pick that as the comparison because it also requires fuel to generate power (or an external source) but not as propellant.
 
Actually I did a couple of minutes' reading and am more sceptical now than I was (and I was pretty sceptical when I started). These new results in a vacuum are not peer-reviewed, not reproduced, and the claimed thrust is at the lower end of the sensitivity of the equipment used to measure it. With a claim like this I'd like to see some more solid scrutiny than a forum discussion (which seems to be the review so far) before accepting it at face value. This has had a lot less scrutiny than say the "faster than light neutrino" anomaly of a few years ago, and that took a couple of years and a lot more effort to track down the cause.

Also the site that's the source seems very happy to build huge edifices of speculation and hype on very little evidence, and there are serious problems with the proposed theoretical mechanism. Now if the actual observations hold up none of that is a problem, but it is not encouraging.

Maybe I'm a cynic, but there are a few aspects of this which, on my limited reading, remind me too much of the cold fusion claims of the 80s. So I'll remain sceptical until there is independent scrutiny and confirmation (at least).
 
It's a great thread though -

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.20

I especially liked the part near the end where the Youtube on how to make a plasma by putting grapes in a microwave oven resulted in the reply that that was food for thought. :D

Regardless of actual mechanism at work, it's going to take substantial power to get anywhere with this as presently built and tested.

Still, I find the speculation very fun and hope that this leads to more than a flash in the pan.
 
Thanks. So that's why some of the rag papers are mentioning we found Warp drive. I sent it to the Vulcan.
It be more correct to say "impulse drive", but nobody in television cares, and though a huge chunk of the world will recognize the one term, most will give you a blank stare for the second, even though both teens came from the same television show.
 
from what I read in the past.. memory...

warp .. bends time and space to move a ship.
impulse.. use charged particles to push a ship

so.. ok.. EMdrive is an impulse tech.
beam me up!
 
Back
Top Bottom