When will Google implement GPU-acceleration in Android?

[EarlyMon]

Well, apple's first try (1st generation iPhone) was waay more smoother than android 2.2 AND 2.3's browser. Thats a bit funny.

I still don't know which handset/hardware you're comparing with. A Mac mini with a PPC won't compare to a mini/duo-core running the same browser, right?

Well, anyway - here's a counterpoint to that argument using specific handsets. In this video, we see compared the Nexus One (obsolete and replaced by the Nexus S) running vanilla Android 2.2, a Samsung Captivate running 2.1, and an iPhone 4.

The browser test appears after he shows off the Captivate features - at about 4:47 into the video.

Here's what you'll want to note:

• The iP4 _is_ smoother at scrolling a web page than the other two - but only slightly
• The Captivate with 2.1 and the Nexus with 2.2 scroll the same
• The Captivate is using the vendor enhanced browser to achive 2.2-like performance out of the 2.1 device (this supports my earlier claims)
• This was how my Evo was at 2.1
• When my Evo went to 2.2 with the vendor-enhanced browser (and the lastest upgrades) it FAR surpassed my previous browser experience - the app itself gained compiler optimizations - and so naturally, this included a more responsive i/o characteristic.
• I'll look for some HTC 2.2 vs. Galaxy 2.1 browser comparison to try to show the difference - the Captivate is still awaiting its Froyo upgrade - ideally, I'd rather find HTC 2.2 on an DHD or Evo vs. iP4, but I haven't found one yet.
• I'm including a second vid because the first says that Android outloads pages compared to the iPhone every time - I think the test was skewed, so the second vid shows the iP4 vs. the Nexus loading at like, 50/50, for who wins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLLi5ccES4o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7NQ0wNxnsQ

Still would like to know which handset you're seeing as so non-smooth in Android. I agreed already about the Desire, but stipulated that the hardware had to be reasonably close to the iP4 - the Desire was not.

You keep saying Android - but on what hardware, please?

Android didn't begin to catch the iPhone until the Evo and beyond.

PS - the Evo was originally hamstrung by a 30 fps rate limit in the kernel. That's been fixed (and I patched mine earlier, at 2.1), so if you saw that, that was slow, but again, that was then, this is now.

PPS - Here's a graphics benchmark of an Evo with 2.2, old kernel, and an optimized, customized 2.2, better kernel (rooted, i.e., jailbroken to achieve this back then - this kernel performance is now closer to standard). While this vid doesn't show it - video processing is tied to touch input (somewhat) so, scrolling is just appreciably better by nearly the same degree as the video output -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ0oNLHWGO0

Lag reduced with uncapped kernel for Evo - note as first HTC top-class phone, this platform was a learning exercise - and is already dated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9EcehkZKv4

I've demonstrated that I'll give the iPhone its props where due, such as multimedia - tell me which handset you're comparing, and I'll eat crow if I can be shown wrong.

Or, I'll fully agree with you if its a handset or sets I know to be less capable.

 

[Drhyde]

Well, I rely on the XDA community for the real goods. Google has to take it slow and make sure that their kernels don't just break a bunch of phones attempting to do something flashy. There's a lot of talk about Sense being tailored to the hardware, but a development community version would have to be CyanogenMod. Cyanogen has really did some major improvements to the overall speed and smoothness of the UI with CM 6 for the Nexus One. On top of that, they (and Enom's ROM) have access to the iNexus theme by a member on the boards that really almost changes the entire experience. I'm truly blown away by what they have accomplished. Also, remember MIUI which really takes advantage of the N1 hardware.

Think of Android in stock form like a car you buy from a dealer, let's say specifically a Honda Civic. Stock, the acceleration sucks, cornering blows, top speed is weak, etc. It isn't until you start tuning the car that it really comes alive in performance. Then, you start adding body kits, custom paint and rims, etc. for the appearance. By the time you're done, you almost can't remember what the car looked like when first bought it.

Android is an OS virtually built out of this concept. It's totally up to the end user what they want to do with it. Of course, if you're not into that sort of thing, then you have the pre-builds like Sense. Either way, Google is really only providing the framework and stability for you to work with. What you do with it is up to your imagination, ability, and drive.

 

[Guamguy]

Well, apple's first try (1st generation iPhone) was waay more smoother than android 2.2 AND 2.3's browser. Thats a bit funny.

That's pretty bullshit. I own IOS devices both today and the present to know.

As a matter of fact, Android browser has much better text reflow, and at times, often faster when rendering web pages.

 

[Martimus]

Sadly I read the iPhone is better than Android rhetoric as highly subjective. If Android strong-armed phone manufacturers to build to very exacting hardware standards then it might be a more valid comparison. By maintaining such tight control over the hardware, Apple can write software to more specifically function in a manner consistent with their product goals. The Android OS, on the other hand, is designed more generically and becomes matched to the hardware through the software abstraction layer. This makes it easier for more phone manufacturers to use the OS on their gear... but it also places the responsibility of making the phone integrate with the OS on the shoulders of the phone manufacturer, a company that is typically known for it's software development.

A comparison between the iPhone and Windows Phone 7 might be more appropriate. In this case the two competing technologies are more similar. Both phones have tightly controlled user experiences...

 

[Guamguy]

When you scroll up and down in the Android 2.2 browser, you see a sh** load of lagg, while the iOS browser is silky smooth.

I got these Froyo devices: Samsung Galaxy S with the official Froyo update, HTC Desire, Desire Z, Nexus One, Tab (given to daughter) and Droid Incredible. I never seen what you said. My MyTouch3G with FRG83D Froyo ROM is a bit slow though.


I've done a number of 3D benchmarks. There is some data to suggest the GPU used in the Qualcomm Snapdragon is slow, not hitting past 30 frps on NenaMarks and NeoCore when I tested them on the Droid Incredible. On the other hand, the Desire Z and the Galaxy S with which had more powerful GPUs are able to score much higher.

Neocore, Droid Incredible = 28 fps, Desire Z = 57 fps, Galaxy S = 55 fps (all on Froyo)

Nenamarks, Droid Incredible = 14 fps, Desire Z = 31 fps, Galaxy S = 49 fps

 

[Guamguy]

Graphical benchs tend to show Qualcomm's Adreno 200 GPU to be such a lagtard, yes the choppiness can be seen on the nenamarks, the benefits maybe secondary by optimizing to the GPU. This was probably one of the factors of going with the Hummingbird for the Nexus S. The GPU performance offers a much greater return of investment for the cost of optimizing to the GPU.

In any case, Android phones are already migrating out of the first generation Qualcomm Snapdragon long before the Nexus S.

 

[Medion]

EarlyMon:

You keep stating that the Desire is a poor comparison to the IP4 due to outdated hardware, but then state that the Evo is a better comparison. Are you not aware that they use the same hardware? Same SOC (CPU/GPU), same amount of memory and configuration. The differences are screen size, touch sensor, and camera.

Android 2.1 also had a memory limitation of around 256MB. That was lifted with 2.2. Between that and JIT, that gives the primary boost from 2.1 to 2.2. But hardware wise, the Desire is still a very good phone, as are the derivatives of that phone (N1, Evo, Incredible).

 

[EarlyMon]

EarlyMon:

You keep stating that the Desire is a poor comparison to the IP4 due to outdated hardware, but then state that the Evo is a better comparison. Are you not aware that they use the same hardware? Same SOC (CPU/GPU), same amount of memory and configuration.

Actually - the Desire is spec'd at 576 MB RAM vs. Evo's 512.

In my mind, I've had that totally backwards for months, and as I'll drop below 100 MB free frequently, I acquired the bonehead belief that it had to be worse for Desire owners.

The Desire has half the Evo's ROM space - but I believe that the entire 2.2 image + radio f/w is under 200 MB, so it's not like Desire owners don't have enough space to deal with the OS.

Fortunately, this is the only thread where I've run my big trap on this blunder, so in that sense, any damage I've done is slightly contained.

Still - no excuse on my part.

I totally and humbly apologize to any Desire owners and to anyone for whom I've caused undue confusion.

Now - add to all that that so far I knew, only the Evo was throttled from launch with a 30 fps cap (claimed necessary because of the HDMI port, but that was quickly established as not accurate) - so with that, the Desire out the box would have run faster than my Evo those many months ago - with 2.1.

Although I wasted a lot of folks time sidetracking over memory and getting wrong which model was less capable - half of my original point is still valid - the OS rev on a Desire last March is no basis with which to form an opinion on iOS 4 vs. Froyo or Gingerbread.

The Desire's hardware is, according to the specs, most probably superior to the Evo where a practical runtime experience is concerned and was certainly superior to the iP3gs that was used in that comparison.

Two major mega-blunders in a single thread - and I'm supposed to be an Android advocate?

Spoiler

Many thanks for helping to get me squared me away on this!

 

[Drhyde]

I got these Froyo devices: Samsung Galaxy S with the official Froyo update, HTC Desire, Desire Z, Nexus One, Tab (given to daughter) and Droid Incredible. I never seen what you said. My MyTouch3G with FRG83D Froyo ROM is a bit slow though.


I've done a number of 3D benchmarks. There is some data to suggest the GPU used in the Qualcomm Snapdragon is slow, not hitting past 30 frps on NenaMarks and NeoCore when I tested them on the Droid Incredible. On the other hand, the Desire Z and the Galaxy S with which had more powerful GPUs are able to score much higher.

Neocore, Droid Incredible = 28 fps, Desire Z = 57 fps, Galaxy S = 55 fps (all on Froyo)

Nenamarks, Droid Incredible = 14 fps, Desire Z = 31 fps, Galaxy S = 49 fps

Once again, this is kernel and CPU speed dependent. Running the stock CM 6.1.1 kernel that's overclocked to 1.113 MHz I get 31.6 fps in Neocore (the max I believe the Adreno 200 can do) and 22.1 fps in Nenamark.

The Adreno 200 isn't exactly laggy, it's just never been really optimized. Once I rooted my phone and began playing around with different kernels, OC values, and custom ROMs, I saw what I was missing with the stock settings. A tuned Android is going to be much more smooth and speedy than what Google gives you.

 

[Guamguy]

22fps still pretty awful though, considering a stock Galaxy S with official Froyo firmware still hits around 50 fps on Nenamarks.

Anything considered less than 26 FPS is considered frame rates detectable by the naked eye.

 

[Drhyde]

22fps still pretty awful though, considering a stock Galaxy S with official Froyo firmware still hits around 50 fps on Nenamarks.

Anything considered less than 26 FPS is considered frame rates detectable by the naked eye.

The GPU in the Galaxy S is three times more powerful than the Adreno 200. Aside from the Tegra 2, the SGX540 is the most powerful GPU in a phone at the moment. For what power it has, the N1's GPU is still decent and I've never had an issue playing 3D games with it. I doubt GPU acceleration would look much different than the Galaxy S in normal use. You'd only see it in high end games. I'm talking really high end games, the kind we don't have yet.

 

[retskrad]

WP7 1.0 leapfrogged Android 2.3, iPhone leapfrogged Android on it's first release also, Maemo also blows it out of the water! Android had multiple major updates, but stil fails to make a smooth browser experience, and WP7 blows it out of the water on it's first try! (1.0)

Seriously, when will Google take the smoothness in the browser seriously? They are far behind!

But let's be fair here, the speed, the rendering and all is very very nice, blowing the competition out of the water, only UI and smoothness is remaining in the Android browser departement.

 

[Medion]

Depends on the device I suppose. I own a Droid Incredible, and my wife has an iPhone 4. Her device is definitely smoother, but hardly blows mine out of the water. Also, (except when zoomed in on Flash content), I prefer the way my phone handles pinch to zoom and scrolling. It seems to respond to my touch exactly, whereas the iPhone seems to artificially outpace my fingers for the sake of keeping the animation smooth.

The iPhone is definitely smoother, but I prefer the feel of my Incredible in most cases.

 

[Evo4sickness]

I wouldnt say that exaclty because allmost all sites look and reder smooth az hell. One thing I have noticed which I wanted to know what was going was when Iam on Here on my Evo and want to respond to a comment when the keyboard opens up the typing is a lagged at times and it doesnt ever lag when Iam at home on 3g. So just wondering if it has to do with the the connection of 3g and its strength.

 

[Bnice]

How many times is this going to be ask? My device is just fine for me. Windows didn't just started with Wp7, they been in the mobile industry before Android.

 

[Guamguy]

WP7, or for that matter, IP4, isn't smoother than the Nexus S/Gingerbread unless one is that biased.

Besides, the Android browser since Froyo would outrender them both.

 

[takeshi]

Depends on the device

Precisely. OP has some faulty assumptions that are well-beaten dead horses.

WP7 blows it out of the water on it's first try! (1.0)

You're somehow completely ignoring the 7. WP7 isn't a first release, as stated above. Try 7.0.

Here on my Evo and want to respond to a comment when the keyboard opens up the typing is a lagged at times and it doesnt ever lag when Iam at home on 3g. So just wondering if it has to do with the the connection of 3g and its strength.

Keyboard lag has nothing to do with your internet connection unless your keyboard app needs to connect to the internet each time you type a letter -- which would be a terrible design choice by the dev.

 

[Evo4sickness]

Precisely. OP has some faulty assumptions that are well-beaten dead horses.


You're somehow completely ignoring the 7. WP7 isn't a first release, as stated above. Try 7.0.


Keyboard lag has nothing to do with your internet connection unless your keyboard app needs to connect to the internet each time you type a letter -- which would be a terrible design choice by the dev.

Iam using the stock keyboard and as Iam typing now it has some lag So what could be the reason for this because on most websites it doesnt lag.

 

[toomuchgame441]

Well I have definitely seen browser lag on various Android devices. I have an Evo and I'd have to say that I am enjoying a smooth pinch zooming experience on it. It's smooth but not as smooth as something like the iPhone 4. I do see slight more lag when loading flash intensive websites but its usually not very bothersome.

 

[Stuntman]

I don't know if you can really make a fair comparison between the iP4 browser and the Android browser. Android supports Flash where as iP4 does not. If Android has to handle more objects, of course it is going to have a harder time keeping up with iP4. It's like a race where one car has to tow a trailer while the other does not.

Not sure about WP7. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the WP7 browser supports Flash.

 

[Medion]

I don't know if you can really make a fair comparison between the iP4 browser and the Android browser. Android supports Flash where as iP4 does not. If Android has to handle more objects, of course it is going to have a harder time keeping up with iP4. It's like a race where one car has to tow a trailer while the other does not.

True, but you can disable Flash (or even uninstall it altogether, unless your carrier bundled it). Even in this case, browser performance is the same except on sites that had Flash.

Not sure about WP7. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the WP7 browser supports Flash.

You're correct, for now. Adobe has stated that they will have Flash 10.1 on WP7. MS is rumored to be cooking up a new browser as well that will support Silverlight and HTML5.

 

[lordofthereef]

FWIW, out of the box, my EVO was way laggy. Well, "way laggy" for me is anything that I can notice. It probably wasn't horrible compared to some other android devices, but it wasn't flawless either. After loading a custom rom, killing bloatware, and doing another handful of tweaks (currently using the standard dolphin browser which I am in love with btw), it is as smooth as my iPhone 4 was. I think the difference is out of the box perception and how much you are willing to do to get your system running top notch. In that filed, WP7 and iOS may blow android out of the water since the average consumer doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of tweaking.

 

[Guamguy]

Actually, Androids using the Qualcomm 8250 Snapdragon has choppier animations (aka lower FPS) than other Androids out there. That results in the sense of visual lag or choppiness.

Its quite evident when I use the Coca Cola live wallpaper on the Droid Incredible and Nexus One, then putting the same up on the Desire Z and Galaxy S. On the latter two, the smoothness is evident. In fact, from the UI swipes and scrolls alone, the smoothness is quite evident.

But let it be known, the Nexus S is the smoothest phone I've seen yet, even against from what I have seen on the IP4 and WP7.

I will say this, my Droid Incredible and HTC Desire is very fast when launching apps and rendering webpages. That's the kind of performance i prefer and in that sense, really hold their own against IP4 and WP7. Especially on rendering webpages.

 

[Medion]

Actually, Androids using the Qualcomm 8250 Snapdragon has choppier animations (aka lower FPS) than other Androids out there. That results in the sense of visual lag or choppiness.

Depends on what is being used. 3D live wallpapers will use the GPU. In this case, yes, the Snapdraon 8x50 series has the lowest end GPU. However, that doesn't mean all things are choppy. My Incredible has smoother UI interaction than the Galaxy S devices or the Droids. Some say this is because Sense is 3D accelerated whereas Motoblur and stock Android aren't. (Some say Touchwize is hardware accelerated as well, but you need to use the lagfix due to poor software implementation from Samsung). Others say it's because Sense is just coded better. Whatever the reason, it's there.

However, on my Incredible, I never notice lag with live wallpapers, either stationary, or when flipping through the UI. Ok, there are some moments. Using SetCPU, I have my CPU clock speed throttle down based on battery charge. I go full speed until 40% battery life remains. at about 15%, I throttle down to 384mhz. At this point, live wallpaper + UI interaction = some noticeable lag.

I've done it too. I love to beat up on the Adreno 200. Fact is though, it's a VERY capable mobile GPU (in fact, you mention WP7 as being smooth, they ALL use Snapdragon 8x50 with Adreno 200!).

 

[Guamguy]

WP7 looks smooth because what its drawing is very simple. Bunch of squares and tiles. What Android draws on the screen tends to be much more complex.

Screen animations on the Galaxy S is indeed smoother than on the Droid Incredible. When you run benchmarks---benchmarks themselves are not accelerated---there is a huge difference between the Galaxy S and Qualcomm 8250 numbers.

Some of the redraw lags you see on the Galaxy S comes not from drawing speed, but from caching parts of the UI to the flash memory. Samsung's RFS can be excruciatingly slow at times, but it can also very quick once the cache is loaded.

Most live wallpapers are not as GPU intensive. Until once you see the Coca Cola holiday live wallpaper that is. Putting it on the Droid Incredible vs. Desire Z, the difference of smoothness between the two is apparent.