Women's Rights in the Middle East

[cipher6]

How can a true democracy exclude women?

Meltdown: Women harassed, attacked in Tahrir Square during International Women’s Day protests Hot Air

CAIRO (AP)

 

[byteware]

It produced one in every other peaceful democracy in the world.

Just because we are more civilized now, doesn't mean that we've always been that way.

EVERY peaceful democracy in the world, once held these very same views.

They aren't where we are now, but they ARE where we HAVE BEEN. Give them time. They'll catch up.

 

[ElasticNinja]

what about China, where there is a high incidence if female infanticide?

 

[mpw]

...Give them time. They'll catch up.

Yeah, one day women there will be complaining that they're being treated TOO equally! like they have been this week in the UK, over insurance premiums

 

[byteware]

what about China, where there is a high incidence if female infanticide?

China's a different animal. In China we aren't just talking about sexual discrimination, we are talking about out and out murder of female children.



However, I suspect that in the coming decades, we are going to see a serious shift of power between the genders in China.

By 2020, they are predicting that China will have 40 million more men than women. If the Chinese as a whole can prevent the kind of violence that is projected to be perpetrated on females in a society with that kind of gender imbalance, then the balance of power between the genders in China should definitely swing quite a bit back towards more of a balance.


That being said, it is also extremely dangerous. Consider this... 20 to 30 million men will NEVER have the opportunity to have sex legally with a woman.

That is going to lead to some serious frustrations and some serious gender relations problems.

 

[cipher6]

Byteware:

China's a different animal. In China we aren't just talking about sexual discrimination, we are talking about out and out murder of female children.

The attack on the women's day protest is just a symptom of something larger... and I don't think its anywhere close to western attitudes of women say 100 - 200 years ago.

A 2005 report by UNICEF suggested that 97% of Egyptian women between the ages of 15 and 49 who have never been married have undergone some form of FGM or circumcision.

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)in Egypt

Robert Fisk: The lie behind mass 'suicides' of Egypt's young women
Part three of our series demolishes the official claim that Egypt, where a farmer decapitated his own daughter, has no 'honour' killings

Officially, Egypt has no "honour" killings. Young women may commit suicide, yes, but they are never murdered. This is the government line – and of course, it is a lie. The files in Azza Suleiman's Centre for Egyptian Women's Legal Assistance office – and in those of other NGOs in Cairo – tell the truth. In May of 2007, a farmer in southern Egypt decapitated his daughter after discovering she had a boyfriend. In March of 2008, a man identified only as "Mursi" electrocuted and beat to death his 17-year-old daughter because she had received a phone call from her boyfriend. "Mursi", a farmer from Kafr el-Sheikh in the Nile Delta, admitted he "beat her with a large stick" before finishing her off with electric shocks; the murder was only discovered when the body turned up at the local hospital

Robert Fisk: The lie behind mass 'suicides' of Egypt's young women - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

 

[byteware]

Byteware:



The attack on the women's day protest is just a symptom of something larger... and I don't think its anywhere close to western attitudes of women say 100 - 200 years ago.



Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)in Egypt





Robert Fisk: The lie behind mass 'suicides' of Egypt's young women - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

While female genital mutilation may be something we've not done... don't gloss over our own history with women.

Considering the ease in which we executed people in this country during revolutionary times... do you really think our history is all that different?

Honestly, our history is just as bad, if not worse if you look back a few hundred years.

 

[cipher6]

While female genital mutilation may be something we've not done... don't gloss over our own history with women.

While we might have thought a women's place was at home, and didn't allow them to vote, I don't know anything in American history that suggest women were routinely raped, mutilated and murdered while society for the most part accepted and agreed with the practice.

Again, I think the idea all cultures are essentially the same, is flat wrong, and leads to wrong conclusions, like everyone wants a secular democracy like in the West.

 

[ElasticNinja]

While we might have thought a women's place was at home, and didn't allow them to vote, I don't know anything in American history that suggest women were routinely raped, mutilated and murdered while society for the most part accepted and agreed with the practice.

Again, I think the idea all cultures are essentially the same, is flat wrong, and leads to wrong conclusions, like everyone wants a secular democracy like in the West.

eh hello, witch hunts

 

[cipher6]

eh hello, witch hunts

One was a localized phenomenon based on silly supernaturalism, only saw a handful killed, faded away fast, and occurred before the US was even a country.

The other is a culture/society wide belief that the status and value of women in society is so low, they can be raped, mutilated and murdered if a male feels its necessary.

I'd say those are some drastic differences.

 

[ElasticNinja]

One was a localized phenomenon based on silly supernaturalism, only saw a handful killed, faded away fast, and occurred before the US was even a country.

The other is a culture/society wide belief that the status and value of women in society is so low, they can be raped, mutilated and murdered if a male feels its necessary.

I'd say those are some drastic differences.

the witch part was merely an excuse to kill free thinking women
these countries are so far behind in social development.. so sad
and FGM is awful, very prevalent in most of Africa

 

[Dark Jedi]

No women was just murdered for being accused as a witch during the salem witch trials, King Henry the VIII had his wives beheaded for not bearing him sons. THese are just a few examples of God fearing Christians. It was well known a woman talk out of line they was beaten by their husbands. If a man committed adultery it was the woman that was blamed and the man walked free.

Yeah we as a nation treated women so great. After all it only took 144 years to let women vote. Even now women are discriminated against be it job promotions or pay. So dont make the US and other democratic nations out to be any better at treating women fairly.

 

[Dark Jedi]

One was a localized phenomenon based on silly supernaturalism, only saw a handful killed, faded away fast, and occurred before the US was even a country.

The other is a culture/society wide belief that the status and value of women in society is so low, they can be raped, mutilated and murdered if a male feels its necessary.

I'd say those are some drastic differences.

Still dont changed the fact that it did happen and this country then british colonies killed innocent people. I am sure their families was outraged buy their deaths. Glad to see you can just brush it off like it was no big beal.

yeah not many was killed. heres the list.



Hanged on June 10

Bridget Bishop, Salem​

Hanged on July 19

Sarah Good, Salem Village​

Rebecca Nurse, Salem Village​

Susannah Martin, Amesbury​

Elizabeth How, Ipswich​

Sarah Wilds, Topsfield​

Hanged on August 19

George Burroughs, Wells, Maine​

John Proctor, Salem Village​

John Willard, Salem Village​

George Jacobs, Sr., Salem Town​

Martha Carrier, Andover​

September 19

Giles Corey, Salem Farms, pressed to death​

Hanged on September 22

Martha Corey, Salem Farms​

Mary Eastey, Topsfield​

Alice Parker, Salem Town​

Ann Pudeater, Salem Town​

Margaret Scott, Rowley​

Wilmott Reed, Marblehead​

Samuel Wardwell, Andover​

Mary Parker, Andover​

Other accused witches that were not hanged, but died in prison:

Sarah Osborne, Salem Village​

Roger Toothaker, Billerica​

Lyndia Dustin, Reading​

Ann Foster, Andover​

Thirteen others may have also died in prison, but sources conflict on the exact number.​

I would say that was one to many.

 

[cipher6]

the witch part was merely an excuse to kill free thinking women

Can you back that up? How many women were killed in the Salem witch trials?

No women was just murdered for being accused as a witch during the salem witch trials

It was just an excuse to kill women for the heck of it? Can you point to any statistics about how wide spread the which trials were in the US and how many women died as a result? Then compare that with 80% of girls in Egypt with FGM.

King Henry the VIII had his wives beheaded for not bearing him sons. THese are just a few examples of God fearing Christians.

I'm not talking Christan vs Muslims, I'm talking about the type of society that can reasonably be expected to embrace a secular constitutional democracy with equal rights for all. We surly had to have some fights and changes along the way to get there, but equal rights was always are guiding ideal... when it wasn't the case, we could also point out, things should be equal and their not as a valid argument.

Can Egyptian and Middle East society do the same? Are equal rights and protections of all ingrained enough in the society when others are called out for not respecting them, will it be taken with any validity?

Yeah we as a nation treated women so great. After all it only took 144 years to let women vote. Even now women are discriminated against be it job promotions or pay. So dont make the US and other democratic nations out to be any better at treating women fairly.

Yeah, it took awhile to get universal suffrage, but were fathers killing their daughters for talking to boys or raping them or mutilating them as standard cultural practice in the mean time?

 

[Dark Jedi]

It was just an excuse to kill women for the heck of it? Can you point to any statistics about how wide spread the which trials were in the US and how many women died as a result? Then compare that with 80% of girls in Egypt with FGM.

It doesnt matter you are talking about womens rights and the witch trials showed women had no rights. And they was killed just as easy as the women over in egypt.

I'm not talking Christan vs Muslims, I'm talking about the type of society that can reasonably be expected to embrace a secular constitutional democracy with equal rights for all. We surly had to have some fights and changes along the way to get there, but equal rights was always are guiding ideal... when it wasn't the case, we could also point out, things should be equal and their not as a valid argument.

When will the US embrace this? Women rights are still walked all over. Sure the document says women has the same rights as men. In the real world many men still looks upon women as the inferior weak species.

Yeah, it took awhile to get universal suffrage, but were fathers killing their daughters for talking to boys or raping them or mutilating them as standard cultural practice in the mean time?

Again doesnt matter Women couldnt vote and that was taking away from women rights.



You do realize that mutilation of the woman genitals is more a religious practice right?

 

[ElasticNinja]

FGM is practiced by ignorant Christians too

 

[byteware]

Again, I think the idea all cultures are essentially the same, is flat wrong, and leads to wrong conclusions, like everyone wants a secular democracy like in the West.

No one is claiming that all cultures are essentially the same. What's being argued is that how this society views women is not that different from how our society did in the past.

 

[byteware]

I'm not talking Christan vs Muslims, I'm talking about the type of society that can reasonably be expected to embrace a secular constitutional democracy with equal rights for all. We surly had to have some fights and changes along the way to get there, but equal rights was always are guiding ideal... when it wasn't the case, we could also point out, things should be equal and their not as a valid argument.

This country was founded on equal rights for white men...

Then later, it became equal rights for whites...

Then later it became equal rights for all...


You are seriously glossing over our history here.

 

[cipher6]

It doesnt matter you are talking about womens rights and the witch trials showed women had no rights. And they was killed just as easy as the women over in egypt.

So, if one man kills one women, it shows that the whole society doesn't give women rights?

I just read about a lady that put her son in the oven, is that evidence of the value of children in the US, or evidence of a single crazy person?

When will the US embrace this? Women rights are still walked all over. Sure the document says women has the same rights as men. In the real world many men still looks upon women as the inferior weak species.

But how does society as a whole view it? Does society and the law take rape accusations seriously, or are they swept under the rug? Do judges let men off for murdering their women because in their opinion, "they deserved it"? Does society get outraged when inequalities are pointed out?

Again doesnt matter Women couldnt vote and that was taking away from women rights.

Do you understand the right to life, not being raped or mutilated is a bit different than the right to vote? Or are they all equal in your mind?

You do realize that mutilation of the woman genitals is more a religious practice right?

You do realize the majority of religious scholars disagree with you right?

FGM is not a religious practice required by the Islamic faith. It has, however, become a "law by custom." Neither of the two main sources of Muslim law, the Koran and the Sunnah, mention the practice, and most Islamic scholars agree that it is not an Islamic religious rite.

Female Genital Mutilation

In Islamic texts, FGC is referred to as khafḍ (Arabic: خفض&#8206[18] or khifaḍ[19] (Arabic: خِفَض&#8206. According to McAuliffe, female genital cutting is not commanded by the Qur'an,[20] and according to Obermeyer, is not practiced by the majority of Muslims.[14]
In Egypt, mufti Sheikh Ali Gomaa stated: "The traditional form of excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women's bodies and minds." [21] Sheikh Musa Mohammed Omer, a member of the Executive Committee of the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs in Ethiopia has said: “there is no evidence from Islamic sources prohibiting female circumcision," unless it is infibulation.[22] Pharaonic circumcision refers to infibulation, or WHO Type III FGC.

Religious views on female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Even if it was a religious practice, does that make it ok? If I start a religion and one of our religious ceremonies is eating boiled babies, would you be fine with that because I'm entitled to my religious beliefs?

 

[cipher6]

No one is claiming that all cultures are essentially the same. What's being argued is that how this society views women is not that different from how our society did in the past.

But I think it is different, while we might have "put women in their place," I don't think rape, mutilation and murder was as wide spread or as accepted as it is in many middle east societies.

This country was founded on equal rights for white men...

Then later, it became equal rights for whites...

Then later it became equal rights for all...


You are seriously glossing over our history here.

It was founded on equal rights for all, but hypocritically. I think that founding principal , even if not fully enacted in the beginning was one thing that pushed us to get there. Excluded groups could always point to the way it "should be" as outlined in the declaration of Independence and constitution, and there wasn't much that could be done to argue against that. Thats why the South had to start a whole other country and remove that idea to defend their practice.

FGM is practiced by ignorant Christians too

where?

FGC has never been part of Christianity as a faith system. There are no scriptural or doctrinal documents existing within the larger Christian tradition that even address the issue. The only contemporary examples of Christians practicing FGC are in Africa. As FGC rituals predated the missionaries work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of cultural tradition, unrelated to religious belief.

Religious views on female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[byteware]

So, if one man kills one women, it shows that the whole society doesn't give women rights?

If one man kills one woman and society says this is ok, or good.. then yeah, that's the case.

I just read about a lady that put her son in the oven, is that evidence of the value of children in the US, or evidence of a single crazy person?

Actually, I'm beginning to think it's an extended abortion time frame mentality. (Mostly because of the frequency with which these cases are popping up now).

But how does society as a whole view it? Does society and the law take rape accusations seriously, or are they swept under the rug? Do judges let men off for murdering their women because in their opinion, "they deserved it"? Does society get outraged when inequalities are pointed out?

Now... we are very civilized. Back then... not so much.

Do you understand the right to life, not being raped or mutilated is a bit different than the right to vote? Or are they all equal in your mind?

Women were considered property here. You do realize that right? If someone damaged your property, you had recourse. If they damaged their own... well property doesn't have recourse.

Even if it was a religious practice, does that make it ok? If I start a religion and one of our religious ceremonies is eating boiled babies, would you be fine with that because I'm entitled to my religious beliefs?

It's not a religious belief, as I've said before... but you weren't arguing with me, so that's not really the point.

The point is, it's a belief that they have. It's a belief that they have as a people.

A question I might ask is this... what purpose does male circumcision (or as some refer to it, Male Genital Mutilation) serve in THIS country?

http://mgmbill.org/

 

[ElasticNinja]

Cipher what are you getting at here
do you want us to donate to FGM charities?
I doubt it, and I think in reality you are trying to reinforce your stereotyped beliefs

 

[ElasticNinja]

where?

Sub-Saharan Africa

 

[byteware]

But I think it is different, while we might have "put women in their place," I don't think rape, mutilation and murder was as wide spread or as accepted as it is in many middle east societies.

When did this become about all middle east societies... weren't we just talking about Egypt?

It was founded on equal rights for all, but hypocritically.

For all white men.

I think that founding principal , even if not fully enacted in the beginning was one thing that pushed us to get there.

An awakening social conscience helped us to get there. We didn't like seeing the civil rights movement hit with water hoses and having dogs attack them, when they were being peaceful, and only asking to be treated the same.

It made us ask what about them makes it ok to treat them this way... and we came up with some new answers.

It was a 200 year process to get there... give Egypt a little bit of time.

Excluded groups could always point to the way it "should be" as outlined in the declaration of Independence and constitution, and there was much that could be done to argue against that. Thats why the South had to start a whole other country and remove that idea to defend their practice.

The Civil War had nothing to do with Slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation.

It was an economic war. The populace cities in the North had much greater representation in Congress. This allowed them to create a huge economic imbalance.

For example, things the North produced and sold had huge import tariffs (think pots and pans), which meant that the South was forced to pay high prices for goods produced by the North.

Things the South produced and sold (think Cotton) had no import tariffs, so the North could purchase them cheaply from other sources forcing down prices on Southern produced goods.

This economic imbalance was the driving force behind the confederacy.

 

[Dark Jedi]

So, if one man kills one women, it shows that the whole society doesn't give women rights?

I just read about a lady that put her son in the oven, is that evidence of the value of children in the US, or evidence of a single crazy person?

But during the salem witch trials it was the society of the town that accused and tried and put these women to death.


But how does society as a whole view it? Does society and the law take rape accusations seriously, or are they swept under the rug? Do judges let men off for murdering their women because in their opinion, "they deserved it"? Does society get outraged when inequalities are pointed out? Depends on which time we are talking about for the nation.

Do you understand the right to life, not being raped or mutilated is a bit different than the right to vote? Or are they all equal in your mind?

Depends on which country you are living in. Just because the US embraces this. Doesnt mean every country does.

Even if it was a religious practice, does that make it ok? If I start a religion and one of our religious ceremonies is eating boiled babies, would you be fine with that because I'm entitled to my religious beliefs?

Nice of you to try and put words in my mouth. I never said I was ok with the FMG. So stop trying to make me out like I BACK THIS.

If your so passionate about stopping this. Why not go over there and make a change to try and help these women. We know you wont as your all talk and no action. Your to scared to raise your voice over in egypt and call their practices wrong and barbaric. As you know as soon as you spoke they would kill you.

You are nothing more than an internet tough guy. Go over there and help them women if it bothers you so much and want it to stop. All you got to do is buy a Plane ticket to egypt. Just make sure you make it one way.