Wrong location on home wifi

[gpshslax]

I'm sure this has been asked and asnwered ... but still, this is the best place I know to ask this type of quesiton. I recently moved a long distance (over 1200 miles) and set my home network back up only to find that as soon as my phone (HTC Desire) connects to it I will revert to my previous home location, both it terms of time and weather.

My research indicates that this is probably a result of Google's clever ... and somewhat invasive policy of logging wifi locations by mac address based on the gps of phones that encounter the signal, as well as google street car reports. In short, Google has logged my router as Gainesville Florida and my phone thinks that's were it is whenever it is connected to it ... even though I'm quite far from there now. I would just turn off the wifi based location service ... but it's lumped in with the mobile networks, which of course is how I do want to determin location (by the way, whoms boneheaded idea was it to lump those together). Does anyone know of a way to notify Google that a device has moved? I though about cloning a new mac address to thwart the resolution of the location (as I've it's logged in the data base by mac address) but how to I know I'm using a unused (essentially blank) mac address. I've heard tell of people that picked a new address only to have their phone locate them on the other side of the planet as they have mistakenly picked an address belonging to a router in russia or australia that google already had in the data base.

Any other ideas for what to do about this. It's driving me batty and upsetting my wife as well. Every time you pick up the phone to have to check to be sure you are looking at the right time zone and weather.

 

[zuben el genub]

Can't you reenter your new location in the weather and time? You need latitude, longitude and time zone. I've had to enter them in astronomy apps. I will admit that Google sky was totally wrong, but Google maps has the location right.

I use Weatherbug and can get both CO and UT locations.

Does telling the phone to use current GPS fix your coordinates? Where do the maps show your location?

I'm using a Samsung Galaxy S 4G

 

[substring]

I don't think the issue is with Google. I don't have issue with my home location on both my Samsung Fascinate and Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 4G.

 

[UncleMike]

I know that MAC addresses SHOULD be unique, but with the number of devices in use I find it hard to believe that no duplication occurs. If Google wanted to uniquely identify an AP, it would make sense to use more than just the MAC address to do so. Try changing your SSID and/or channel and see if that helps.

 

[zuben el genub]

Any other phones available besides HTC and Samsung? If it works on Samsung, then it should work on HTC. I've had no trouble with Nokia, Samsung, Nintendo DSI, Coby 1024 tablet, and Nook wifi.

 

[gpshslax]

Can't you reenter your new location in the weather and time? You need latitude, longitude and time zone. I've had to enter them in astronomy apps. I will admit that Google sky was totally wrong, but Google maps has the location right.

I use Weatherbug and can get both CO and UT locations.

Does telling the phone to use current GPS fix your coordinates? Where do the maps show your location?

I'm using a Samsung Galaxy S 4G

Yes, of course I can, but that's not the point. The HTC weather widget is also has the ability to locate you quite specifically, but for some reason only has a very limited list of places you can select manually. For instance if I turn Wifi of the weather for Cushing (where I live) some up, but the closest thing I can select manually in Tulsa (45 miles away). It is only incorrect if I have Wifi on and GPS off ... but that is the usual state of my phone, hence it is usually wrong. Google maps and all other apps and widgets show the wrong location if Wifi is on and GPS is off.

I don't think the issue is with Google. I don't have issue with my home location on both my Samsung Fascinate and Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 4G.

Respectfully I think your wrong. Unless you are dealing with a registered that has been moved you won't see the problem I'm describing. Try this link for more info:
Incorrect location of WiFi router - Google Mobile Help
or search google for a host of other similar query's

I know that MAC addresses SHOULD be unique, but with the number of devices in use I find it hard to believe that no duplication occurs. If Google wanted to uniquely identify an AP, it would make sense to use more than just the MAC address to do so. Try changing your SSID and/or channel and see if that helps.

I've tried this ... it doesn't help. Also I've seen post of google help forums specifically indicating the MAC address is used for this.

Any other phones available besides HTC and Samsung? If it works on Samsung, then it should work on HTC. I've had no trouble with Nokia, Samsung, Nintendo DSI, Coby 1024 tablet, and Nook wifi.

The guy with the Samsung devices didn't indicate whether they moved or purchased a router from another location ... so it's not really fair to say samsung works as it may not be comparable.




I fear my post my come off as ungratefull and that's not my intention. Has anyone had any experience with this particular issue? Thanks to uncleMike for addressing my actual problem.

 

[UncleMike]

I know you don't want to change the MAC address of your AP for fear of causing problems elsewhere, but as a troubleshooting step it might be worth doing briefly. If you're really worried about duplication, you should be able to use the external MAC address of your router without any ill effects. This should work, at least until you move again.

The problem really appears to be Google's baseless assumption that each WAP will forever remain in a fixed location.

 

[Slug]

If your handset is rooted there's an app (Location Cache Map) that will let you delete (and optionally block) the location cache files, which would probably correct the issue.

I think the cached data expires after 48hrs so, assuming that disabling your router's AP for a couple of days is not practical, try disabling wireless on the handset, setting the date forward three days manually, obtain a current location fix using GPS and mobile network, and then try re-enabling wireless. No guarantees this will work but you never know....

p.s. remember to reset the correct date afterwards.

 

[takeshi]

(nm)

 

[takeshi]

I know that MAC addresses SHOULD be unique, but with the number of devices in use I find it hard to believe that no duplication occurs.

With MAC address cloning there's definitely duplication.

So you think there are more than 281,474,976,710,656 devices out there?

The problem really appears to be Google's baseless assumption that each WAP will forever remain in a fixed location.

Citation? Long update intervals != Google assuming that AP's don't move. Consider how the data is updated.

My research indicates that this is probably a result of Google's clever ... and somewhat invasive policy of logging wifi locations by mac address

Receiving broadcast information isn't invasive. If you don't want someone to receive something then don't transmit it in the clear.

 

[UncleMike]

With MAC address cloning there's definitely duplication.

So you think there are more than 281,474,976,710,656 devices out there?


Citation? Long update intervals != Google assuming that AP's don't move. Consider how the data is updated.


Receiving broadcast information isn't invasive. If you don't want someone to receive something then don't transmit it in the clear.

I don't think there are that many devices in use, but I have seen duplication of hardware MAC addresses - from the same manufacturer (3Com, IIRC).

Your'e right... long intervals between updates does not equal an assumption that APs don't move. But basing location calculations on proximity to devices that are easily moved certainly has its drawbacks.

 

[mikedt]

The problem really appears to be Google's baseless assumption that each WAP will forever remain in a fixed location.

Tell me about it. I've got a two year old Edimax wireless router here that Google still thinks is at the Metropark Hotel, Kowloon, Hong Kong, where it was unboxed and initially setup. Despite the fact that it's since been used in various places around China, and for a few weeks in Bristol, UK. Also took Google nine months to realise that my Macbook Pro was no longer at my friend's home in Zhuhai, Guangdong province. I frequently use the MBP as a WAP.

I would have thought it would update where things are very quickly, especially as I was using Google Maps on my phone. Wifi was saying it was in Zhuhai or Hong Kong depending on AP used. and cell-tower info plus GPS location was Xilinhot, obviously this is impossible.

 

[mikedt]

Citation? Long update intervals != Google assuming that AP's don't move. Consider how the data is updated.

Actually how is the data updated. How would I convince Google that my router hasn't been used in Hong Kong for two years?

I'm thinking WAP information might have been gathered when Google had the Streetview cars driving around, collecting MAC addresses plus all the other stuff. Google has Streetview in HK but not in the mainland.

I've got Google Maps on my phone with obviously conflicting information, about where Google thinks the router is and what the phone's GPS and cell-tower location is telling it.

 

[gpshslax]

With MAC address cloning there's definitely duplication.

So you think there are more than 281,474,976,710,656 devices out there?


Citation? Long update intervals != Google assuming that AP's don't move. Consider how the data is updated.


Receiving broadcast information isn't invasive. If you don't want someone to receive something then don't transmit it in the clear.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, please don't bother. Nothing you posted helps solve my problem ... or really goes farther than bickering. This type of responce just discourages people from replying to posts.

Of course your right that a 48 bit naming skeme is unlikely to produce duplication ... so how would I go about figuring out an unused MAC address? Given that the first 3 octets of the address are used a prefix to identify the hardware manufacturer and there are 16.8 million possible prefixes it seems certain that the majority are unused.

Google's assumtion is apparently not simply that the update interval is long but rather that a lot a data is need to register, and/or reregister a location. Let's be honest, this is a pretty poor assumtion. If nothing else there should be a feature to report a moved location or opt of a location for truely mobile devices such as 3g hotspots or laptops being used as ad hoc network devices. Moreover, there should be a threshold for distance of move. If a device reported locaiton moves a mile it might be bad network coverage or weak satelite reception. On the other hand if it moves 1200+ miles it can probably be assume that 1 or 2 reports is a good indication that the physical location has moved.

In terms of the issue of broadcasting information ... it's not really fair to imply I can't be upset that they record the information I "chose" to broadcast when it isen't really a "choice" per se. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my device won't connect to a AP that isen't broadcasting. I had broadcast turned off until I got my android and couldn't connect. So if google sets up a system in which I must broadcast network presence, and then records and ships off the info once I do, then I do think I have to right to be enbittered. If you have a solution to this I'm all ear.

 

[gpshslax]

If your handset is rooted there's an app (Location Cache Map) that will let you delete (and optionally block) the location cache files, which would probably correct the issue.

I think the cached data expires after 48hrs so, assuming that disabling your router's AP for a couple of days is not practical, try disabling wireless on the handset, setting the date forward three days manually, obtain a current location fix using GPS and mobile network, and then try re-enabling wireless. No guarantees this will work but you never know....

p.s. remember to reset the correct date afterwards.

I'm fairly certain that the issue is not the location cache files. I've clear them anyway, and it actually seemed to make the problem worse. You actually don't need root to do that by the way. See this post:

http://androidforums.com/desire-tip...delete-no-longer-need-rooted.html#post2655347

It's not the local cache that thinks the router is in the wrong place. It's google's location cache in the cloud that reports the wrong location every time the phone ... phones home for info.

 

[gpshslax]

Actually how is the data updated. How would I convince Google that my router hasn't been used in Hong Kong for two years?

I'm thinking WAP information might have been gathered when Google had the Streetview cars driving around, collecting MAC addresses plus all the other stuff. Google has Streetview in HK but not in the mainland.

I've got Google Maps on my phone with obviously conflicting information, about where Google thinks the router is and what the phone's GPS and cell-tower location is telling it.

Your exactly right. Google collect this information using the streetview car, but more importantly directly from the handsets of android users, or any others with google location based apps or services installed. That's why when you turn location on in setting it asks for permission to anonomously report location information in the background. This makes your phone a mobile receiver and reporting device to help google build it's location database. The best way to get your location to update (or so it's reported) is to turn that service on, and have all you android using friends turn theirs on, and have everyone parade around your house and neighborhood as often as possible until google gets the point. Of course this is absurd, the real idea is that google builds and updates the database slowly, over time. It just makes me wish there was a way to report these wrong locations ... or take ownership of AP to opt out of the program or reset the location data when it's known to be wrong.

 

[mikedt]

Of course your right that a 48 bit naming skeme is unlikely to produce duplication ... so how would I go about figuring out an unused MAC address? Given that the first 3 octets of the address are used a prefix to identify the hardware manufacturer and there are 16.8 million possible prefixes it seems certain that the majority are unused.

I think what actually happens though, as soon as a manufacturer has used up their allocation they can get another OUI(Organizationally Unique Identifier), which are the indeed first 3 octets of a MAC address.


This is a screenshot of Overlook Fing being used at Beijing Airport. One can see that all the IDs are 'Apple' or 'Apple Inc', Probably most of them are iOS devices. Note that the only the first two have matching OUIs, the first 3 octets. I suspect Apple has many OUIs, and gets more as needed to avoid duplication of MAC addresses in its products. Going to be the same with many large producers of products which have MAC addresses, e.g. Cisco.

 

[gpshslax]

I think what actually happens though, as soon as a manufacturer has used up their allocation they can get another OUI(Organizationally Unique Identifier), which are the indeed first 3 octets of a MAC address.

View attachment 21121
This is a screenshot of Overlook Fing being used at Beijing Airport. One can see that all the IDs are 'Apple' or 'Apple Inc', Probably most of them are iOS devices. Note that the only the first two have matching OUIs, the first 3 octets. I suspect Apple has many OUIs, and gets more as needed to avoid duplication of MAC addresses in its products. Going to be the same with many large producers of products which have MAC addresses, e.g. Cisco.

And still ... I find it hard to belive that the near 17 million prefixes have been used up. I almost find it surpising that there isen't a way to register a new address like a domain.

 

[Slug]

It's not the local cache that thinks the router is in the wrong place. It's google's location cache in the cloud that reports the wrong location every time the phone ... phones home for info.

I, perhaps wrongly, assumed that if the local cache location differed then the remote record would be updated.

 

[gpshslax]

For anyone whom is interested, this issue eventually resolved itself. My router now reports the correct location. However this may be in part to a comedy of errors with the warrenty replacement plan for my phone. Within the last two month I had to have my phone replaced 4. So ... between my original phone, my wife's phone, and the 4 replacements, I've had 6 different androids signed in to the router at this location. It's also possible that neighbors, or passers by on the street could have picked up the location and reported it as well. The result is that google eventually corrected the location in their database.

I can't recommend my solution to anyone else ... but still it is fixed now.

 

[Martin C]

Sorry I've come late to this discussion, but I think I have an answer.
My friend's router started behaving badly, I thought her service was being throttled by her ISP, so we swapped Linksys WAG54GS routers to check. After that, looking on Google Maps with my Android phone, set to WiFi only using her router at my place, it reported me at her address.
After reading this forum, I switched to an old spare WAG54GS router I had, suddenly I was where I should be on Google Maps again.
On her router I tried factory re-set, nothing, then in desperation, using 192.168.1.1 in advanced settings, I found I could delete the MAC setting, Bingo, now when when I check my HTC Desire location, using WiFi only, I'm where I should be.
Oops, just rechecked, phone still says I'm at my girlfriend's place, but it is definitely the info inside her router that needs to be changed, if I walk out of range of the wifi, I get my correct location, but when I walk back and refresh, it says I'm at my girlfriends place. So frustrating, just haven't figured out how to permanently change the MAC location.

 

[Jim G]

I have the same problem. I have a Motorola Atrix 4g and a Verizon MIFI 4510L. I was in Port Aransas, Texas for a couple of months and now I have been back in Minnesota for a month. When I'm connected to the MIFI 4510L, the Atrix 4g still thinks I'm 1,500 miles away in Texas. This is true for any app that uses current location. If I leave my home, away from MIFI 4510L, my location becomes correct.

I have done a factory reset on the MIFI but I'm reluctant to reset my phone. Any ideas?

 

[gpmoo7]

To everyone who had the same issue, does your devices can see other WiFi networks?
Because WiFi location is not only based on 1 WiFi router but the list of all WiFi networks seen by the device.

In my situation, my devices are only seeing 1 WiFi network and GPS fix is hard to get while seeing the WiFi network.

I think Google has a mechanism to update WiFi router location automatically after multiple devices sent "impossible" information like when a device sees the WiFi router and has a GPS fix very far away from the supposed WiFi router location.

 

[mikedt]

Location on home WiFi is wrong by more than 2000km.

 

[Ron Ashman]

I wonder if anyone has found a solution for this.

I lent a router to a friend for 4 months, now I got it back. When I connect to it it reports I'm at his house, almost exactly there (about 5 meters error).