You knopw things are bad when...

[BobPaul]

So If I open a Bacon/Pork shop right next to them, its ok? I mean, it is my right.

There is no way in hell that would be allowed.

 

[TheBeardedMann]

Well I hope Im wrong about them and your right. BTW, we didn't put all Japanese in detention camps, just the ones we suspected as a threat.

And the ones we suspected were all of them.

 

[WAdude]

And the ones we suspected were all of them.

I know Beardedman, that's why I put a smiley on the end, sarcasm (oops, virtual sarcasm to be exact).

 

[smacky]

It should be worth noting that you can't say for sure whether someone is "good" or "bad." We've mentioned that there are "good" Muslims in this country that "don't support extremists" but how do you know that? How do you know the Muslim you think is 'good" isn't funding them with portions of his own salary? How do you know the one that looks like he'll blow your bus up at any second didn't fight the extremist militia back in his motherland?

Judging anyone as being good or bad isn't so black-and-white. That's why I think the argument that "oh, the good Muslims are against the extremists" is silly. There can be a Muslim that supports extremist activities, yet is a well-respected physician or firefighter (saving lives) in your neighborhood.

If we take our personal feelings about Muslims, whether they be good or bad, we still see there being a problem involving Muslims and the mosquee they plan to build.

Islam isn't the only religion that feuds between itself, but it's certainly in the news a lot more so than the others. Religious buildings are vandalized plenty of times, regardless of the religion. And Muslims are a religion with some of the most "pride." If the Mosque were to be vandalized, do you think they will "forgive and forget" and just hope that the city will protect and prevent instances like that from happening again? Do you think the city will protect something so controversial?

If it was found that a feud between Muslims and those that are opposed to the building of the mosque was instigated by a white American, do you not see clerics overseas condemning them and calling for their heads? What if it was another Muslim? Different divisions of Islam attack each other constantly. Would you expect the city to take an unbiased action against a white American or punish the Muslim to standards "acceptable" by the cleric overseas?

This is not a "what-if" situation. I'm pretty sure this will happen. Someone will take action against this mosque if they don't like it. Muslim clerics are known to constantly complain that not enough measures are being taken to protect Islam. So if the mosque were to be bombed, regardless of the perp's nationality or religious beliefs, do you think the US, the city of NY, and even Americans as a whole, want to be in middle of this, mediating punishments?

If Muslims in this country are "good" and don't follow the teachings of extremists, why are we building a mosque for the "good" ones on a place where the "bad" ones destroyed a building and killed Americans just to show that the "good" aren't "bad?" It doesn't make sense to me.


I'm being serious with this, I think an Arabic restaurant would be a better symbol of "forgiveness" or whatever the mosque is to represent, than a mosque. "Arabic" doesn't sound right, but it isn't mediterranean food only, since Islam stretches even to India and Indonesia. So, Indian/Pakistani/Iranian/Arabic restaurant?

Here's one better: just treat Arabs like normal people and like any other criminal when they commit crimes. I think that's ultimately what every "good" Muslim wants.

 

[stainlessray]

if good muslims spent as much time, money, and energy teaching their children right and wrong through the paradigm of humanity as opposed to that of religion,as they are in trying to get this mosque built, than 9-11 MAY never have occurred and we wouldn't care where they put their mosques as was the case before that day.

i think a small amount of reciprocity is in order here with regard to the sensitivity of our fellow citizens who are disturbed by this. i believe the majority of our population has shown plenty of sensitivity toward muslims since the day that attack took place. I have a Turkish muslim neighbor right next door and have never harbored any ill will towards him. i would hope that an intelligent person could see WHY this bothers so many people, and therefore, just back it up a FEW MORE BLOCKS, considering the good will that would buy them. to continue to push for this in spite of the controversy is unnecessary and leads me to wonder about the motives of the would be mosque builders.

and if they persist,then we should just place a memorial with the names of the victims directly across the street. wouldn't that be constitutional as well? we don't really need to worry about whether that would be right, do we?

 

[smacky]

if good muslims spent as much time, money, and energy teaching their children right and wrong through the paradigm of humanity as opposed to that of religion,as they are in trying to get this mosque built, than 9-11 MAY never have occurred and we wouldn't care where they put their mosques as was the case before that day.

i think a small amount of reciprocity is in order here with regard to the sensitivity of our fellow citizens who are disturbed by this. i believe the majority of our population has shown plenty of sensitivity toward muslims since the day that attack took place. I have a Turkish muslim neighbor right next door and have never harbored any ill will towards him. i would hope that an intelligent person could see WHY this bothers so many people, and therefore, just back it up a FEW MORE BLOCKS, considering the good will that would buy them. to continue to push for this in spite of the controversy is unnecessary and leads me to wonder about the motives of the would be mosque builders.

and if they persist,then we should just place a memorial with the names of the victims directly across the street. wouldn't that be constitutional as well? we don't really need to worry about whether that would be right, do we?

Yeah, the fact that they can't build one somewhere else is a bit sketchy as far as questioning their motives, but at what point do we stop being so cynical?

 

[Crude]

if good muslims spent as much time, money, and energy teaching their children right and wrong through the paradigm of humanity as opposed to that of religion,as they are in trying to get this mosque built, than 9-11 MAY never have occurred and we wouldn't care where they put their mosques as was the case before that day.

i think a small amount of reciprocity is in order here with regard to the sensitivity of our fellow citizens who are disturbed by this. i believe the majority of our population has shown plenty of sensitivity toward muslims since the day that attack took place. I have a Turkish muslim neighbor right next door and have never harbored any ill will towards him. i would hope that an intelligent person could see WHY this bothers so many people, and therefore, just back it up a FEW MORE BLOCKS, considering the good will that would buy them. to continue to push for this in spite of the controversy is unnecessary and leads me to wonder about the motives of the would be mosque builders.

and if they persist,then we should just place a memorial with the names of the victims directly across the street. wouldn't that be constitutional as well? we don't really need to worry about whether that would be right, do we?

It's scary that people lack the common decency to understand why this plan is bad. It's equally scary that you had to come in here and help everyone else understand this.

If you think you have the right to do with your property whatever you wish, try putting a 60' ham radio antenna on it and see how long till local/county officials make you take it down. Get real you do own the property, but what you do on it is tightly regulated by the government...but why not in this case?

 

[3devious]

then we should just place a memorial with the names of the victims directly across the street.

I have no problem with this and think it's a good idea anyway.

It's scary that people lack the common decency to understand why this plan is bad. It's equally scary that you had to come in here and help everyone else understand this.

Not feeling the need to shoot anything that intrudes my little corner of the world all the time does not mean that I lack common decency or need anyone to help me understand anything. I know why people are upset. Other people do stuff I don't like all the time, win the vote or deal with it. It also takes common decency not to be a territorial coward. Yeah, I said it. People who are freaking out about this look scared and it's embarassing. Dress it up as anger from outrage but it still smells like fear.

Stainlessray is right, I've been wasting my time distinguishing between good and bad muslims as I have with good and bad christians, europeans, and cat owners. I am still not going to make knee jerk decisions about these people just because of a cross section of jagoffs.

Crude is also right, no one except a bunch of rich assholes owns shit here, so I don't see why a bunch of fleas need to act like they own the dog they are on. Things will go like that until they bleed the dog dry.

 

[Crude]

The Daily Gut

Islamic supremacist Ground Zero mega-mosque organizers whine that Gutfeld's gay bar doesn't "consider the sensibilities of Muslims" - Jihad Watch

you were saying?

 

[smacky]

The Daily Gut

Islamic supremacist Ground Zero mega-mosque organizers whine that Gutfeld's gay bar doesn't "consider the sensibilities of Muslims" - Jihad Watch

you were saying?

Haha, you have to give them the benefit of the at first and be neutral in your decision-making. Things like this, though, definitely need to be addressed and the Muslims responsible for such claims should be made to understand that their building is a privilege and on city-owned ground. They need to understand the rules of the city, otherwise there are still plenty of other places that could use a mosque.

Now that's the hard part.

 

[zep]

They do have the right to do it, thats for sure. But is it right to do it? I mean, honestly theres gonna be some violence. In my opinion, this is up to the people of NY and the families of the deceased.

I agree, particularly the families of the ~60 Muslim men and women who died during the attacks.

[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica][FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[WAdude]

I agree, particularly the families of the ~60 Muslim men and women who died during the attacks.

[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica][FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid[/FONT][/FONT]

And your right. I agree, let them choose, but remember, this Is a democracy, the majority rules.

 

[zep]

And your right. I agree, let them choose, but remember, this Is a democracy, the majority rules.

Majority rules what exactly? A peoples' right to practice their religion?

Actually the constitution rules that, not the majority. hth.

Religious freedom is one of the bedrock ideals that our nation was founded on. Don't dress up intolerance as "majority rules" and expect rational people to buy into it.

 

[WAdude]

Majority rules what exactly? A peoples' right to practice their religion?

Actually the constitution rules that, not the majority. hth.

Religious freedom is one of the bedrock ideals that our nation was founded on. Don't dress up intolerance as "majority rules" and expect rational people to buy into it.

While Congress can make no law respecting an establishment of religion, since the USA is a nation under God, Congress can make law that denies arbitrary rights.In the Western world, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have scriptures:: Avesta (Zoroastrianism), Old Testament (Judaism), New Testament (Christianity), and Qur

 

[zep]

So basically you're just going to c&p a blog post and not address the crux of the notion that "majority rule" != rubber stamping religious intolerance.

Got it, thanks.

Also:

While Congress can make no law respecting an establishment of religion, since the USA is a nation under God, Congress can make law that denies arbitrary rights.

f***ing :lol:

And finally:

I conclude that the purpose of making the Qur

 

[zep]

Oh dear god, are you a young earth creationist? Please please please be one of those, they're the funniest.

 

[WAdude]

Oh dear god, are you a young earth creationist? Please please please be one of those, they're the funniest.

No dude. I'm not. You actually read all that sh!t. I forgot to provide a cite to that. Sorry.

 

[zep]

No dude. I'm not. You actually read all that sh!t. I forgot to provide a cite to that. Sorry.

Unfortunately I made the mistake of thinking I was having a discussion with someone for whom the term "in good faith" has some semblance of meaning. I'm actually curious if, in your head, that wall of dreck comes anywhere near touching upon the topic at hand other than some rambling, insane conclusion that the Qur'an was written not as a holy text or one group of people's concept of the word of god, but as a trick perpetrated upon the world by literally 'three crafty Jews'. Like...f***ing seriously? I'm pretty sure I didn't order any crazy with my meal but goddamn that is a big steaming plate of it.

I really hope this is some epic troll but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[hakr100]

While Congress can make no law respecting an establishment of religion, since the USA is a nation under God, Congress can make law that denies arbitrary rights.

"...the USA is a nation under God..."

You mean, some guys in the 1950's decided to add that phrase to "the pledge" in the 1950's.

Where is the proof that this is a nation under God? Where is the document from God stating that?

Again, what you are offering up is nothing more than an opinion. There's no evidence that "God" has or has had anything to do with the United States, or even that there is a God. That some guys have made that claim from time to time doesn't make it so, and the claim that this is a "Christian" nation is just more religious bulldorky.

It is clear to me the First Amendment gives everyone here the right to practice or not practice a religion. What it does not do is give "the religious" the right to shovel their beliefs onto the rest of us, or to those who do not believe. That doesn't mean I would want anyone to not discuss their beliefs publicly...I just don't want those beliefs used to mess around with my secular country and society.

 

[WAdude]

Unfortunately I made the mistake of thinking I was having a discussion with someone for whom the term "in good faith" has some semblance of meaning. I'm actually curious if, in your head, that wall of dreck comes anywhere near touching upon the topic at hand other than some rambling, insane conclusion that the Qur'an was written not as a holy text or one group of people's concept of the word of god, but as a trick perpetrated upon the world by literally 'three crafty Jews'. Like...f***ing seriously? I'm pretty sure I didn't order any crazy with my meal but goddamn that is a big steaming plate of it.

I really hope this is some epic troll but I'm not going to hold my breath.

No, youve just been trolled. Actually, I kind of changed my mind while having a discussion with someone else in here like ten posts before, you know, where me and 3Devious were discussing. I just felt like posting the BS I copy-pasted from some website for fun.

But seriously, they have the right to, and by letting them do it, WE, as AMERICANS, can put our whole concept of "out of many one", to fuking work. Instead of focusing on putting the whole muslim religion down simply because the media has painted this picture of the muslim religion as all being terrorists. The worst thing is we listened to the media, people need to stop being followers, and start being leaders, as our founding fathers were. Although, if that 100 million dollars is not coming from something good, then Id have to disagree with myself. But hopefully its coming from good muslims. So I say, let them build the mosque. I say this as a Catholic.

 

[Crude]

You know what I love about this thread? In almost every thread in this forum people hate religion and go out of their way to lam bast any notion of it...but here they are defending a religion that is at least as intolerant as christianity.

Me thinks some people are thinking too deeply...or just like to talk?

 

[WAdude]

You know what I love about this thread? In almost every thread in this forum people hate religion and go out of their way to lam bast any notion of it...but here they are defending a religion that is at least as intolerant as christianity.

Me thinks some people are thinking too deeply...or just like to talk?

Honestly, If they screw up somehow, I'd change my mind immediately, but the great thing is that in a couple of years they will build the freedom tower (hopefully they build It soon) there and we would be looking down at them, just as the hillbillys look down at the rednecks from the Appalachians.

 

[zep]

I liked this quote from Al Franken:

"It's a community center. They're going to have a gym. They're going to have point guards. Muslim point guards."