Anyone boycotting the TSA scanners tomorrow?

[Dark Jedi]

so how are we suppose to ensure safety on flights? Write a strongly opinionated letter to all terrorist cells stating what they are doing is wrong and please stop?


i am not saying the TSA isnt flawed but how can the gov insure flight safety.

 

[EarlyMon]

Ok lets get rid of all the security measures and go back to letting anyone carry anything on to a plane. Then when a terrorist hijacks your plane you can tell them you cant do that because your infringing on my rights. Then at your funeral it can be said at least he died with his freedoms in tacked

Wait - under that scheme, when a terrorist begins to hijack my plane, can't I just tell him that he's the real loser here - while tossing out pages of pages of a book on the collective consciousness - and then shoot him myself? I'm an excellent pistolero and I'd promise to use my own low-power loads so as to not over-penetrate his body.

As for not being armed in that scenario - the first thing I did after 9/11 was book an overseas flight. My intentions were to not give any indications that the terrorists had won any of my mindshare - or to die fighting on that plane if need be - or to be a bomb casualty and let terrorists know that some of us are just too idiotic to be scared by the likes of them.

I'm one of those that would rather be dead than live without liberty.

Hyperbole is fun, but I'm not sure if either of us actually gained any ground here - what do you think?

 

[EarlyMon]

so how are we suppose to ensure safety on flights? Write a strongly opinionated letter to all terrorist cells stating what they are doing is wrong and please stop?

i am not saying the TSA isnt flawed but how can the gov insure flight safety.

I don't advocate throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I do think that asking how the gov can ensure flight safety is the right question - and that it need not lead to the TSA justifications that have been handed us.

In my opinion.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Wait - under that scheme, when a terrorist begins to hijack my plane, can't I just tell him that he's the real loser here - while tossing out pages of pages of a book on the collective consciousness - and then shoot him myself? I'm an excellent pistolero and I'd promise to use my own low-power loads so as to not over-penetrate his body.

As for not being armed in that scenario - the first thing I did after 9/11 was book an overseas flight. My intentions were to not give any indications that the terrorists had won any of my mindshare - or to die fighting on that plane if need be - or to be a bomb casualty and let terrorists know that some of us are just too idiotic to be scared by the likes of them.

I'm one of those that would rather be dead than live without liberty.

Hyperbole is fun, but I'm not sure if either of us actually gained any ground here - what do you think?

I agree all we are doing is spinning our wheels in the mud, but hey if everyone was in agreement the the world would be a boring place to live. Why we can have debates they can be fun if kept civil. plus each side can look at anothers point of view. after all its our right

 

[twospirits]

Like I said before, if the intelligence community actually did its job well (not saying they aren't but it can be better improved) then all these pat downs would not be necessary. Scanners that do not detect round explosives and only sharp objects to me are useless and delay the boarding process. The same with pat downs.

TS

 

[hakr100]

How about people like this?

VERY EXTREME NSFW!

If you can't take the reality of what the world is really like, don't view.

If you are a liberal, and can't handle the truth, don't watch these videos.

What the world is like? What, that we in civilized society should accept the antideluvian views of white supremacists?

 

[IOWA]

What the world is like? What, that we in civilized society should accept the antideluvian views of white supremacists?

Ask yourself this. Which is worse?

 

[hakr100]

White supremacists are, by far, the greater criminals. Who is the greater criminal, an Idi Amin, a Hitler, a Stalin, or a bank robber?

 

[Dark Jedi]

Like I said before, if the intelligence community actually did its job well (not saying they aren't but it can be better improved) then all these pat downs would not be necessary. Scanners that do not detect round explosives and only sharp objects to me are useless and delay the boarding process. The same with pat downs.

TS

Have you ever seen how many tips and threats they receive just in a day? Then they have to go through everyone and see if its valid or not. Then they investigate those leads. But all the while they are getting more and more everyday and they are limited in man power.

So if you know a better way which is more efficient I am sure they are all ears. Instead of complaining how they are not doing enough. Sure they can improve. I can improve. You can improve.Heck everyone can. No one person or organization is perfect. Why don't more people report things they see going on. Or is that infringing on others rights?

No one has the right answer and right or wrong at least the government is trying to do something about it. Heck they could of said don't care you know the risks in flying. Just have to hope and pray your plane isn't targeted for a hijacking. So can't you say our government act like they care and is trying to do what's best for us. Even though many feels they do too much and infringe on my rights or too little and they could do more if they took the time and really cared.

 

[EarlyMon]

The biggest problem defense planners have is to stop planning to fight the last war better, and to prepare for the next war instead.

Everyone cheered at the new, heightened post-9/11 TSA measures - everyone but me and any of the real security experts. When I went through security, I wondered how long it would take to figure out that they might stop people from carrying bottles of stuff on-board - a few plastic pop bottles of ammonia and bleach disguised with food coloring would have sufficed to bring a plane down. And how long did that take anyone to figure and fix? In threat terms - forever.

And today you can still go through duty-free shops for international flights and buy booze in nice, big, glass bottles and take those on a plane. Ever been in a bar fight - or seen one in the movies?

I refuse for people's safety to be specific on this - but I can assure you that each and every single plane that flew today did so with a large number of people carrying lethal weapons. Except, just like a binary poison in innocent bottles, TSA hasn't figured this one out yet, and I'm not referring to bottles of booze. I'm referring to every domestic flight, every day.

Because they're simply fighting yesterday's threat.

They're trying to use politics to fight a technological problem - and scanners are much more a political tool than a tech one.

All TSA is accomplishing is letting you believe that you're safer from hijacking.

You're not.

Shibumi.

 

[LaTuFu]

Perhaps not. Perhaps such a display is in violation of community standards. Though it is hard to imagine such standards in Idaho. From a humor point of view, though, the klan snowman does demonstrate just how unsupreme white supremacists are. If there is a dumber group of Americans, they have yet to identify themselves.

I knew we would agree on something at least once.

Either way - he lacked the courage of his convictions. He didn't fight for the rights you say he has in this case.

You had me at lacked the courage of his convictions. He either believed in the ideal behind his snowman, or he was just another ignorant individual worshiping a false idol rather than understanding the true message he was delivering.

 

[LaTuFu]

again its not cut and dry for the first amendment. I can't hire a girl to pose nude in my yard and call it art. There is a decency law out there and you can bet I would be arrested. Go to trial and preach about my freedom of expression and the judge will still find me guilty.

So yes you have freedom of speech but up to a certain point. You can speak trying to start a riot. or if it starts to infringe on other peoples rights.

The first amendment is very cut and dry. The government can pass no law that infringes on the right of expression. It says nothing about the rights of a property owner to impose restrictions on what they are willing to allow on their property. (Be it their front yard or internet forum)

What the world is like? What, that we in civilized society should accept the antideluvian views of white supremacists?

In what delusional alternate universe do you live in? The most discriminated population in the Western Hemisphere is the white christian male. Ethnic groups of every other descent and gender have opportunities, both cultural and legislative, that are in complete opposite direction of what you claim.

White supremacists are, by far, the greater criminals. Who is the greater criminal, an Idi Amin, a Hitler, a Stalin, or a bank robber?

Genocidal maniac, genocidal maniac, genocidal maniac, and a desperate man possibly trying to feed a family. Crazy apples, crazy apples, crazy apples, and a hungry orange. While you may be right about Hitler being a white supremacist (he was actually even more superficial than that, but okay, I'll accept your statement for the moment, I guess...) I highly doubt you'll find anyone who would call Idi Amin a white supremacist. Stalin killed more of his own kind than any other ethnic group, so he actually should be your hero, it sounds like to me. What is your real question here?

I say this purely for the comic effect...but you realize Idi Amin was not white...yes?

 

[EarlyMon]

The most discriminated population in the Western Hemisphere is the white christian male.

Well - it's possible that white christian males are the most discriminated population.

However - presuming you mean discriminated against - would you have statistics or references to substantiate that?

Do you mean:

• Discriminated against by law? By law enforcement?
• By government agencies?
• By employers?
• By society in each country in the Western Hemisphere?
• By hot babes in bars?

And how does this vary from North America to South America?

And how do you think this group fares in the Eastern Hemisphere? Worse? To date, I'm unaware of any white christian males holding significant political office in any of the Asian countries.

I'm aware of this being a popular meme, but I'm unaware if it's popularly believed - or if it's true.

 

[Crude]

That's fine and dandy, but he cowtowed to authority and removed the KKK hood and then the arm holding the noose.

He could have left it as was, accepted the arrest and fought it in court. He may well have ultimately won.

Or he may have lost resoundingly.

Either way - he lacked the courage of his convictions. He didn't fight for the rights you say he has in this case.

Did he spit on the graves of soldiers by throwing his rights away, showing cowardice to the police as he did?

Or, being confronted that he'd created a public nuisance, did he admit that he was shouting fire in an open theater?

What do you think?

FWIW, as context is often considered when dealing with rights, I noticed from the article that this all took place at: "The city of Hayden, in northern Idaho, is not far from the former headquarters of the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations group."

I note with interest that had he erected this snowman - or a Nativity Scene - on the public median or public easeway to his property (whichever might apply) then he might have been compelled to remove it as a violation of church and state in the case of a Nativity Scene - or under any local provisions in the case of the silly snowman.

That's the difference a few yards can make in a physically open space (the property line is real - it is physically invisible however).

Do you believe public nuisance laws are invalid?

What if instead of a silly snowman he instead erected ear-splittingly loud audio system on the lawn and played rantings of his KKK beliefs all night long?

Does the 1st Amendment more directly protect that scenario than the snowman? It literally says speech, not snowmen as examples of expression.

Where would you draw the line?



Was his 1st Amendment right violated or was it an interpretation of that right that was violated?

And what about neighborhood covenants? Most of those dictate what you can and can't do just to decorate your house - and they tend to stand up in court from what I've read.

How is it that an enclave of neighbors can override the 1st Amendment - doesn't it appear that way to you?

I'm not going to answer all the questions. I think with only a few answers you can find what your looking for.

I think you have to define a nuisance? IMO a nuisance is not on a sign or statue. I would think a nuisance would have to be noise, smoke or odor ( maybe others but those come to mind). Ultimately your rights end where the next persons start.

I think he was within his rights to make the snowman. If westborrow baptist church can claim their signs on public property as free speech then this most definitely qualifies.

Mind you, I do not share this mans views. But I felt this was a clear cut example of how your rights can be violated.

Well - it's possible that white christian males are the most discriminated population.

However - presuming you mean discriminated against - would you have statistics or references to substantiate that?

Do you mean:

• Discriminated against by law? By law enforcement?
• By government agencies?
• By employers?
• By society in each country in the Western Hemisphere?
• By hot babes in bars?

I think he said culturally and legislatively?

 

[EarlyMon]

I'm not going to answer all the questions. I think with only a few answers you can find what your looking for.

I think you have to define a nuisance? IMO a nuisance is not on a sign or statue. I would think a nuisance would have to be noise, smoke or odor ( maybe others but those come to mind). Ultimately your rights end where the next persons start.

I think he was within his rights to make the snowman. If westborrow baptist church can claim their signs on public property as free speech then this most definitely qualifies.

Mind you, I do not share this mans views. But I felt this was a clear cut example of how your rights can be violated.

Why is noise a nuisance when sights are not?

It was the arrangement of photons that the city claimed was a nuisance.

Is it whether the vibration is at the quantum level or the atmospheric level dictates when a nuisance has occurred?

And what about the location's history of the Aryan movement? According to this, these expressions have led to violence in that area:

Neo-Nazi Group Coming Back to Idaho - KIVITV.COM | Boise. News, Breaking News, Weather and Sports-

Was his a case of a poor taste according to his neighbors or a case of shouting fire in a crowded theater?

And why did he lack the courage of his convictions?

We have only media comments to go by - but the image of a proud white supremacist and the image of a man cowtowing to law enforcement over a snowman doesn't seem to quite gel.

Wouldn't that indicate that he wanted this media attention and nothing more?

Hasn't that snowman already left his yard?

 

[EarlyMon]

I think he said culturally and legislatively?

He said -

In what delusional alternate universe do you live in? The most discriminated population in the Western Hemisphere is the white christian male. Ethnic groups of every other descent and gender have opportunities, both cultural and legislative, that are in complete opposite direction of what you claim.

He said that other groups have cultural and legislative opportunities.

I merely asked for specifics because I'm not sure that I agree with his premise, but I'm open to change that - and I'm not sure I can easily map unspecified "opportunies for others" as specific discrimination, a requisite for me to understand the claim.

Without clear exposition, these become labels for me of so many things that they end up labeling nothing.

Revealing specific examples of cultural discrimination against white christian males would at least clue me in to what's being asserted.

And the claim was a for the Western Hemisphere.

If something's supposed to be common knowledge concerning half the planet, I'd have expected to find supporting data rather quickly.

 

[hakr100]

I'm aware of this being a popular meme, but I'm unaware if it's popularly believed - or if it's true.

The white supremacists believe it, but, then, they would.

 

[hakr100]

Revealing specific examples of cultural discrimination against white christian males would at least clue me in to what's being asserted.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that white supremacists are discriminated against...I sure as hell would not hire one.

I find the self-proclaimed christian white supremacists the most laughable. Their proclamation of christianity flies in the face of the ethnicity and religion of their savior and his teachings.

 

[EarlyMon]

The white supremacists believe it, but, then, they would.

To tie this back to the topic - some have claimed that profiling would be effective for the TSA.

This would suggest that they should profile whites equally with other colors then - as was mentioned on the first page of this thread.

And - on this statement, I'd rather stay on course, lest we imply that anyone is calling LaTuFu any names.

He's stated his view, let's see how he wishes to clarify.

His assertion is that an ethnic group has lost its rights.

 

[Crude]

Why is noise a nuisance when sights are not?

You have the choice of what you look at. You cannot close your ears or turn them away? You cannot close or turn away your nose?

For that matter you are allowed to make noise without it being a nuisance right? from say 7am-9pm below 110db? I'm just saying, I've never heard of a ordnance that limits what you see? I know of covenants...but those you have to agree to. This again is your willingness to forfeit certain rights for living in a certain neighborhood. Kind of like forfiting your rights to fly on a plane.

 

[hakr100]

Many peoples of the Mediterranean look very similar and many of them would be considered "white" even though their complexions differ. Profiling these people should bring loud protests from Italians, Greeks, Israelis, Egyptians, Spaniards, et cetera. It should be a giggle.

 

[EarlyMon]

I'm just saying, I've never heard of a ordnance that limits what you see?

I can help with that - cities everywhere have signage ordnances.

A few decades ago, the big city in New Mexico passed one limiting the size of those on private businesses running down the main drag, because everyone's signs had grown so large a constituency arose that said they'd become an eyesore. I know of a lot of cities with such ordnances.

Further - theaters can show that action shot from Jimmy Bond on their billboard - but not a XXX graphic if they show that sort of thing, in most every city you go.

If I lived across the street from you - or children in your family - and I erected a billboard on my lawn depicting some XXX graphic, I think you'd find that the folks where you live would find applicable ordnances against that and I'd be in a world of trouble - and I wouldn't be protected by the 1st Amendment - I'd be liable for whatever applied locally - public indecency, contributing to delinquency of minors, and that big favorite - creating a public nuisance, and I'd predict that I could take it as far as appeals would let me and I'd lose.

So - how is a KKK snowman in an area known for racial violence any different than that hypothetical XXX billboard where a public nuisance was concerned?

I think he cowtowed because he knew he had no right to do that - his ended where others' rights began, just as you say.

It could be reasonably argued that this rose above public nuisance and was inciting violence - perhaps law enforcement was being gentle in only threatening a lesser charge - nuisance vs. incitement - and rather than his rights being trampled on, he was actually given the benefit of the doubt.

Of course - I could be wrong, but then, my defense for that XXX graphic would be for others to not look.

How would you think that would work out for me?

Law is more than theory, much more - it's a practice of a social contract.

These are merely my opinions, though.

My overarching point is much simpler - the things we take for granted as rights are always open to scrutiny and only after doing so are we ever really sure of what we think we believe.

And I believe TSA sucks out loud.

 

[IOWA]

White supremacists are, by far, the greater criminals. Who is the greater criminal, an Idi Amin, a Hitler, a Stalin, or a bank robber?

Yeah, the guy who built a snowman is really worse than the guy who assaulted somebody's vehicle and people in a car. Yep. What was I thinking. Geesh. Thanks for the attitude adjustment.

/s

 

[EarlyMon]

So - has the topic of TSA scanners run its course, then?

 

[IOWA]

So - has the topic of TSA scanners run its course, then?

Didn't you know it was the vandalizers and white supremacists that initiated the scanners and pat downs? Geez get with the times EarlyMon! I know you were gone for a while but I never expected you this far out of the loop!





/joke