Anyone boycotting the TSA scanners tomorrow?

[A.Nonymous]

I promise you if they would have pulled that 9/11 junk on an airline in russia those people would have been choked to death, and it wouldn't even have been a blip on our radar.

In Soviet Russia airline pilot kill you!

 

[EarlyMon]

Treat every human--sick, old, disabled, gay/straight, black/white, rich/poor or just simply different with respect. Have compassion and an open minded understanding for the differences in individuals.

Capital idea.

See also my post here: Moderator rules to remember in this thread

N.B. - "Invective is counterproductive and hyperbole is useless. Let's promise ourselves to not add them to an already insane issue."

 

[Bob Maxey]

You just proved my point. All of you have forgotten what happend that day.

"You crash a plane into a building and the worst case scenario is you scare a bunch of people into never, ever flying again or working in sky scrapers." Really, that was the worst case scenario? Wow

For those who forgot the real scenario of what happend that day.
1) People in commercial airliners flew into buildings and blew up in a fireball
2) Two of the tallest buildings in the world were crumbled
3) Innocent people including fire fighters lost their lives
4) Another plane crashed into the pentagon killing more innocent people
5) Another plane crashed straight into the ground, nothing was left, everything disintegrated. More lives gone.
6) The world watched as people jumped to their deaths. Jumped from hundreds of feet high because they were being cooked alive as the heat from the explosion was unbearable. These people became known as the 911 Jumpers
7) The world watched as Edna Cintron waved and waved and waved for help. No help came, and she died.

To this day I remember Edna Cintron waving as she stood hundreds of feet in the air, waving from a mangled building with fire behind her, waiving for help. Yet you guys are complaing about going through increased security. Give me a break.

Great review of those sad events.

I guess we all need to decide what should be done to keep us safe. How far do we go; where do we draw a line that says,

 

[Bob Maxey]

You're completely missing the point or I'm failing to make it properly. Let me try this in bolded all caps so I can be sure that I'm getting the point across that I want to get across.

THESE NEW SCANNERS AND ENHANCED PAT DOWNS DO NOT MAKE ANYONE ONE SINGLE, TINY, ITTY BITTY, IOTA OF A SMIDGEN SAFER.

One could argue that the scanners and pat downs are telling terrorists to find a better way to do their evil deeds. So perhaps these measures do work and perhaps the inspections did prevent another attack.

Why do illegals swim across the river rather than try to sneak past a checkpoint? They will be quickly caught.

If I were a terrorist looking to harm America, there are countless opportunities to do so and it would not include commercial aviation.

We just do not know what was prevented.

Bob Maxey

 

[A.Nonymous]

We just do not know what was prevented.

That's somewhat of a weak argument. I can just as strongly argue that we've prevented nothing as you can that we've prevented tons of things. There's no evidence one way or the other that either of us is aware of so neither of us can accurately say.

If we want to be 100% safe, the solution is out there. Everyone walks into a small room and strips completely naked. Their clothes are handed to a TSA agent in another room who searches them for contraband. This TSA agent would not see the person in the room and would have no idea who's clothes they're being given. The traveller then steps into an MRI machine or CAT scanner which will scan them for any contraband. If you've got something hidden in a body cavity, the CAT scanner is gonna see it. If you swallowed something ahead of time, the CAT scanner is going to see it. These scans would be randomly sent in real time to monitoring centers around the States. The people manning them would have no idea if they're looking at a scan from La Guardia or O'Haire. This keeps people from putting their confederates in place to conveniently ignore stuff they see in scans. Once people are cleared and the clothing is determined to not have contraband in it, the clothes are handed back to the traveller who dresses and then goes on their way. All luggage (carry on and checked) would be scanned and put through a pressure test to test for anything that may have a pressure trigger. The system would be extremely difficult to beat. Invasive? Extremely. But it would make us as close to being 100% safe as you could get. I suppose people on this board would support such a system?

 

[Bob Maxey]

No I didn't read any solutions from you, I would like to hear your solutions.
I would also like to hear solutions from Byteware.

I mean you started the thread, now that you are asked to stop complaining and start offering solutions, you suddenly don't feel like it. You sure have the energy to complain though.

Hey there Samsung . . . do not loose sleep over waiting for solutions from Byteware and a few others. They aren

 

[byteware]

You just proved my point. All of you have forgotten what happend that day.

"You crash a plane into a building and the worst case scenario is you scare a bunch of people into never, ever flying again or working in sky scrapers." Really, that was the worst case scenario? Wow

For those who forgot the real scenario of what happend that day.
1) People in commercial airliners flew into buildings and blew up in a fireball
2) Two of the tallest buildings in the world were crumbled
3) Innocent people including fire fighters lost their lives
4) Another plane crashed into the pentagon killing more innocent people
5) Another plane crashed straight into the ground, nothing was left, everything disintegrated. More lives gone.
6) The world watched as people jumped to their deaths. Jumped from hundreds of feet high because they were being cooked alive as the heat from the explosion was unbearable. These people became known as the 911 Jumpers
7) The world watched as Edna Cintron waved and waved and waved for help. No help came, and she died.

To this day I remember Edna Cintron waving as she stood hundreds of feet in the air, waving from a mangled building with fire behind her, waiving for help. Yet you guys are complaing about going through increased security. Give me a break.

Forgotten that day?

I remember that day very clearly. I'm just not a coward who would give up my rights in return for absolutely nothing.

Ya makes no sense, lets just stand there and do nothing. Would doing nothing show the terrorists that they didn't win?

So BYTEWARE, IT IS SEPT 12, 2001. One day after the attack. You are now in charge of the TSA for the next 10 years, from Sept 12, 2001 to Sept 12, 2011. Please, don't be shy, please tell us what Mr. Byteware would do as head of the TSA starting from Sept 12, 2001 to Sept 12, 2011. Please tell us how you would run the TSA. How would Mr. Byteware protect us without letting the terrorists win, please I want to hear your platform. Don't forget, you are incharge for 10 years, so be detailed. Thanks.

You want 100% safety? It's not possible. I, personally, myself can get around ANY safety measure you put in place, short of requiring passengers to bring nothing (no clothes, no phones, no luggage, no nothing), and subjecting them to cat scans prior to boarding.

If I can bring luggage on board the plane, then I can destroy it. It's just that simple. And there isn't a darn thing you can do about it... except maybe go through every single piece of carry-on and disassemble every single electronic device, pen, and mechanical pencil.

But... if I were to suggest some changes... these would be them:

1) Start fining airlines $10,000 per lost luggage. (The reason for this will become evident in #2).

2) Require airlines to send ALL luggage separately from passenger planes. (The fine ensures that airlines are more than motivated to ensure that it gets there... and on time).

3) Instill training psychological profilers at every single airport. Let them look over the public and determine who should be searched. Give them a very thorough search, and if need be a cat scan to determine if they are carrying contraband.

What I would not do... is implement policies and procedures that do absolutely nothing, except violate the rights of citizens of this country.

Then you simply didn't read the whole thread.

I think that much is obvious.

So how do you decide which potential employee gives a damn and which doesn't. You ask a set of questions during the interview? A set of questions someone can fake? "Yes sir, yes, I give a damn."

Actually, you use trained psychologists to interview employees and job applicants.

Considering that everyone's safety is dependent on these people, it's inexcusable that it hasn't been done already. These people should be the very model of professionalism. These people should be the very model of security. They should be trained to spot behavior that indicates criminal intentions. However, what we have is a bunch of rent-a-cops that we depend on for our lives. That's a very sick and cruel joke.

So what do we look for? The big hairy guy in the turban?

If I wasn't already familiar with you, I would assume that this was a poor attempt at a joke.

Psychological profiling uses behaviors and mannerism to determine who is most likely to be planning criminal activity, or terrorist activity. It's something you should look up, because other countries use it and it works for them.

They have been proven not to work? Really? Please provide the proof, I would like to read the proof you read. They just implemented the scanners, would love to read the quick studies that have been published.
Mind providing the proof?

I would recommend that you research a topic in the future before you start throwing an uninformed hissy fit.

http://springerlink.com/content/g6620thk08679160/fulltext.pdf

Great idea, so the scanners are a waste of money, lets print pampphlets instead. Ok, so here is a picture for you. Employees standing in the airport handing out pamphlets. You hand it to some guy in a hurry to catch his flight, he grabs it from the employee, then 10 ft later tosses it in the trash without ever reading it. Now what?

Your (sarcastic) argument against not doing something useless, is to compare it to something else useless? Well, I got to say, I'm not convinced.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but do you see how hard it is to be a leader. I found faults with all of your suggestions. Complaining is much easier than being a leader isn't it. It is easy to log onto androidforums.com and complain about the TSA from the comfort of your computer, but it is much harder to actually be in charge and provide real solutions.

No, I don't see how hard it is to be a leader. You haven't found a flaw in any of these plans. I guess, if you didn't understand any of these things, then you might see these as true flaws, but really that's just announcing that you don't know anything about these things, and don't care to educate yourself before spouting your opinion here.

BYTEWARE AND A.NONYMOUS, THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY ARE WAITING. YOU TWO ARE IN CHARGE OF THE TSA, PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SOLUTIONS ON HOW TO KEEP THE COUNTRY SAFE FOR AT LEAST 10 YRS, WITHOUT LETTING THE TERRORISTS WIN. THE PUBLIC IS WAITING FOR YOU TO TAKE ACTION, GOSH YOU GUYS ARE TAKING TOO LONG TO TAKE ACTION.

You've been answered. Sorry I took so long... I have a life, wife, and kids.

 

[A.Nonymous]

These multi-million dollar x-ray machines can be fooled by...............drum roll please.................a pancake. Just wrap your bomb in a breakfast food and we'll all feel a lot safer.

 

[twospirits]

---Clipped for space---

Excellent post.

TS

 

[Sweet Chaos]

I'm kinda glad I bounced out of this thread before it turned from a heated discussion to people being rude. I just want to throw something in real quick.

These multi-million dollar x-ray machines can be fooled by...............drum roll please.................

a pancake. Just wrap your bomb in a breakfast food and we'll all feel a lot safer.

I understand that you posted the link to help clarify things for everyone, but that statement is very deceptional, especially since you added the "Just wrap your bomb in a breakfast food" part. This isn't about being able to wrap anything in anything. It's about creating a device that LOOKS LIKE a part of the body so the machine gets confused.

 

[Bob Maxey]

These multi-million dollar x-ray machines can be fooled by...............drum roll please.................a pancake. Just wrap your bomb in a breakfast food and we'll all feel a lot safer.

Perhaps they can; I saw the report, too.

But if you are caught trying to circumvent security, you will be dragged screaming into a small room where suddenly it will not be so funny.

Bob Maxey

 

[Bob Maxey]

1) Start fining airlines $10,000 per lost luggage. (The reason for this will become evident in #2).

2) Require airlines to send ALL luggage separately from passenger planes. (The fine ensures that airlines are more than motivated to ensure that it gets there... and on time).

3) Instill training psychological profilers at every single airport. Let them look over the public and determine who should be searched. Give them a very thorough search, and if need be a cat scan to determine if they are carrying contraband.

What I would not do... is implement policies and procedures that do absolutely nothing, except violate the rights of citizens of this country.
kids.

1- You simply can

 

[Bob Maxey]

That's somewhat of a weak argument. I can just as strongly argue that we've prevented nothing as you can that we've prevented tons of things. There's no evidence one way or the other that either of us is aware of so neither of us can accurately say.

If we want to be 100% safe, the solution is out there. Everyone walks into a small room and strips completely naked. Their clothes are handed to a TSA agent in another room who searches them for contraband. This TSA agent would not see the person in the room and would have no idea who's clothes they're being given. The traveller then steps into an MRI machine or CAT scanner which will scan them for any contraband. If you've got something hidden in a body cavity, the CAT scanner is gonna see it. If you swallowed something ahead of time, the CAT scanner is going to see it. These scans would be randomly sent in real time to monitoring centers around the States. The people manning them would have no idea if they're looking at a scan from La Guardia or O'Haire. This keeps people from putting their confederates in place to conveniently ignore stuff they see in scans. Once people are cleared and the clothing is determined to not have contraband in it, the clothes are handed back to the traveller who dresses and then goes on their way. All luggage (carry on and checked) would be scanned and put through a pressure test to test for anything that may have a pressure trigger. The system would be extremely difficult to beat. Invasive? Extremely. But it would make us as close to being 100% safe as you could get. I suppose people on this board would support such a system?

Look, it is simple. Yes, it is true that you can

 

[A.Nonymous]

I understand that you posted the link to help clarify things for everyone, but that statement is very deceptional, especially since you added the "Just wrap your bomb in a breakfast food" part. This isn't about being able to wrap anything in anything. It's about creating a device that LOOKS LIKE a part of the body so the machine gets confused.

No, it's not deceptive at all. The point is you can fool these scanners with a pancake. The point is how easy it is to fool these scanners and how ineffective they are. The point is that these scanners are so easily fooled that they add 0 security to the whole process and are very intrusive. They are very intrusive while offering no protection at all.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Look, it is simple. Yes, it is true that you can

 

[Sweet Chaos]

No, it's not deceptive at all. The point is you can fool these scanners with a pancake.

Again, you're not fooling them with "a pancake." You're fooling them by pressing something flat (like a pancake...) and into the shape of an internal organ.

Not pancakes you'd necessarily eat, of course, but PETN pancakes. Potential attackers could take the notoriously explosive material and smooth it into a pancake shape to mimic the contours of the abdomen.

So saying "Just wrap your bomb in a breakfast food and we'll all feel a lot safer," is, in fact, deceptive.

And I'll say again that nothing is perfect. If you're expecting a device that's going to stop everything all the time you're going to be complaining for a long time. IMO, to stop ONE THING that the metal detectors don't makes the scanners worth it 100%.

 

[Bob Maxey]

First of all I didn't mean to call your argument invalid. My intention was simply to point out that my argument that we've caught nothing is just as valid as yours is. That's all.

Say what you want about my system, but it would make us almost 100% safe. You can easily send that much data over the Internet through secure, SSL site-to-site VPNs. Sending the data won't be an issue. You want 100% security, I just gave it to you. It's very expensive and very invasive, but we want security more than anything right? We don't want planes crashing into buildings again do we? My plan prevents that completely.

Not at all 100% safe or secure. Just adding yet another cumbersome layer on top of an existing cumbersome layer of security. The machines are costly; the training to run the machines and interpret the results is not likely to be any better than the current TSA training. Perhaps I missed something, so, again, kindly clarify.

So I arrive at SLC International and buy a ticket to Narnia. I go through the CAT scanner. What then? Do my scans go somewhere for study? What if I have a curious smudge on the scan? Do I go to a little room for questioning?

You gave it a shot, but your idea is 100% impractical.

We need to take a few pages from the Israeli terrorism book. They deal with this better than we do and it is not at all invasive. All we do is hire unqualified

 

[jaywigz311]

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. - Ben Franklin

 

[Sweet Chaos]

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. - Ben Franklin

That's great. Unfortunately Ben Franklin died about 200 years before people started flying planes into buildings in an attempt to do as much physical, emotional and mental damage as possible.

 

[EarlyMon]

That's great. Unfortunately Ben Franklin died about 200 years before people started flying planes into buildings in an attempt to do as much physical, emotional and mental damage as possible.

All of the founding fathers did - before the advent of nuclear war.

So, am I understanding correctly that your position is that we dispense with the wisdom of the founding fathers because their ideas are outdated and outmoded?

 

[A.Nonymous]

That's great. Unfortunately Ben Franklin died about 200 years before people started flying planes into buildings in an attempt to do as much physical, emotional and mental damage as possible.

So I take it that your opinion is that whatever it takes to make us safe is justified?

 

[A.Nonymous]

Not at all 100% safe or secure. Just adding yet another cumbersome layer on top of an existing cumbersome layer of security. The machines are costly; the training to run the machines and interpret the results is not likely to be any better than the current TSA training. Perhaps I missed something, so, again, kindly clarify.

So I arrive at SLC International and buy a ticket to Narnia. I go through the CAT scanner. What then? Do my scans go somewhere for study? What if I have a curious smudge on the scan? Do I go to a little room for questioning?

You gave it a shot, but your idea is 100% impractical.

We need to take a few pages from the Israeli terrorism book. They deal with this better than we do and it is not at all invasive. All we do is hire unqualified

 

[Bob Maxey]

That's great. Unfortunately Ben Franklin died about 200 years before people started flying planes into buildings in an attempt to do as much physical, emotional and mental damage as possible.

Hey Sweet Chaos . . . You know I love you, but you need to read about the founding of this country and learn the true meaning of sacrifice. By NO MEANS AT ALL was the founding easy or simple. Those times were tough and what the fathers started took great effort and sacrifice.

Bob Maxey

 

[Bob Maxey]

You show up to check into your flight. You show your standard 2 forms of id to check your bags. You pay the outrages $25 a bag or whatever it is to check your luggage. The luggage you check is scanned, x-rayed and put into a pressure chamber to check for pressure triggered explosives. Any bags that are suspicious are taken aside and searched.

You go to the gate, empty your pockets and walk through a simple metal detector. If it goes off, you're searched, wanded, etc..... If it doesn't, you walk into a room. You strip naked and you hand all your clothes to someone through an airlock type thing. Your clothes are searched by someone in another room. You get in a CAT scanner or MRI. This is going to see everything in your body as that's what it's designed to do. These scans are sent off over the Interwebs to a random monitoring center. This keeps terrorists from planting an operative inside an airport to conveniently ignore their confederate's contraband. If your scan sets off an alarm, you'll be taken aside while experts double check your scan and you'll be re-scanned if necessary or given the appropriate searches to figure out if you're really carrying something. Once you're cleared, you can re-dressed in the room and go on your way.

Yes, you're right. It's 100% impractical. It would slow airline travel to a grinding halt. However it would make us about as close to 100% safe as you can get. That's my point. If you want to be 100% safe there's no practical way to get there without giving up every right we've got. People are making the argument that just about anything is justified if it makes us safer. It's not.

Or we can learn from El Al. they do things right in Israel. They know how to run a secure airport. They do not do the kinds of things we do and they are safe. No need for CAT scanners or other silly ideas. Just common sense and smart people running the show.

So there is my idea for US security. We hire El Al experts and learn from them.

Bob Maxey

 

[EarlyMon]

Sorry, even your cat scan, search everything scheme would fail.

Your plan, even tho meant to prove a different point, only succeeds in making the obvious point to anyone who's worked security: systems designed for technical or political reasons fail.

Your plan really has a lot in common with TSA thinking.

Like watching a plumber fix a TV, this approach simply does not work.

The approach is trapped by its own assumptions, and its designer is looking so closely that he can't see how this isn't nearly foolproof.

Not criticizing your main point, just submitting that you just identified what's wrong with TSA thinking possibly more than you can ever know.

You think you know what to look for.

You've only specified how to look for something you think you know about.

You don't know what you're looking for.

You'll never find it that way.

That's my point. If you want to be 100% safe there's no practical way to get there without giving up every right we've got. People are making the argument that just about anything is justified if it makes us safer. It's not.

I agree with the part that people are saying it's ok to give up our rights if it makes us safer.

Beyond impractical - we're giving up our rights and we're not safer.

Despite cries to the contrary, we simply aren't safer.

This precisely prove's that Ben Franklin's thinking is as true today as it was back then.