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Now that we know the Apple A5 is a beast, what Android phone will be able to compete with iPHONE5?

EarlyMon said:
And how much do you know of its performance in that development lab?

My only issue with all this is the curiosity of what Android will possibly do, as if the metrics in the iPad 2 will immediately apply to an iP5.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

So tell me - what Android device that you're unaware of will beat the iP5 that you have no data on? If you have insider info at Cupertino, I apologize, perhaps you do have data on the iP5 - do you?
Click to expand...

You're totally losing me here. I'm scratching my head wondering what this is all about? Are you directing this towards me? Or the OP?

All I did was offer a link to the comparisons of the A5 chip in the iPad II to the Tegra 2 chip in the Xoom for a gentleman who requested it. And I added that I'm assuming the same chip will be used in the iPhone 5. Why wouldn't it be? The Tegra 2 chip is the chip found in most hi-end Android smartphones coming out. Once the Tegra 4 chip comes out, it will be found in most of the next hi-end Android smartphones. We've been discussing this sort of thing for months now. I don't know why all of a sudden I'm being targeted for insinuating there will be an iPhone 5 phone coming out. I didn't know that was some sort of secret?

Furthermore, I didn't compare any Android device past, present or future to anything in that post. Ok now hang on to your britches, cuz I'm about to hypothisize again... I'm speculating that the next iPhone (we'll just call it that even though the last four iPhones have been called iPhone 1, iPhone 2, iPhone 3 and iPhone 4.... so as of right now I'd say 'iPhone 5' is the most likely candidate for what the next Apple celular device will be named, it's not like we pulled that out of thin air or anything) will use the A5 chip for it's graphics. That's the sort of predictable thing Apple usually does, they use the latest technology in their devices. The only other possibility I can think of, is they'll really freak us out, and have an A6 to drop on us.

Now, if my prediction comes true, then the next iPhone will have the lead in the graphics/gaming department. Personally, this means a hill of beans to me. I play all of 3 games on my Droid X. Angry Birds... Alien Defender... and Robo Defense. I'm not a big gamer. So an out-of-this-world graphics benchmark isn't going to sway me in the least, much less get me to switch over to the next iPhone. But that doesn't mean it isn't a legit bragging right for those boys on the iOS side of the fence. It's no different than the LG 3D that's coming out. To date this is the first device I personally know of with a built in 3D camera, and a 3D display. Now I'm also not big on 3D, so this means the same hill of beans to me as the graphics thingy does. However that doesn't make it any less of a bragging right on the Android side of the fence... that we will have the first 3D camera/display celular device on the market.

So as far as I'm concerned both sides can crow and beat their chest about this stuff all they want, none of it concerns me much, but they're sure to be touted anyway. That's the way they do. I couldn't tell you how many benchmark graphics I had to wade through in the Droid X section, with everyone exclaiming how it all meant Android was superior to iOS, blah, blah, blah... it meant about as much to me then as it does now. Which is less than zero.

And I don't take the back and forth seriously either. As far as I'm concerned there is no 'winning side' or 'losing side'. Both sides push the envelope further and further with each device they release. I'm sitting back and enjoying the competition because my handsets just keep getting cooler by the day without me doing anything at all. I don't have to lift a finger, these two titans are doing all the leg work for me. It's playing right into my hand perfectly. If the guy holding the next iPhone thinks he's the biggest winner, more power to him. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of their phone, nor what they think of my phone. All I care about is if my phone tickles my fancy.

And it still does, even if the newest phones hitting the market thump it in benchmark tests! ;)
 
The article I linked showed that the real improvement in the iPad 2 was the A5, they changed little else in silicon.

Truly a processor upgrade alone can make all the difference in a device - something we can take almost for granted.

But in phone, there's more to consider. Will they keep the existing antenna design design? Will they keep the existing form factor? Earlier rumors indicate that this is the year that the iPhone will expand to more than just one model - how will they vary, how will they be the same?

The iP4 is already crowded, see - iPhone 4 Verizon Teardown - iFixit

Will they use the newer battery tech to make room for a new A5 layout? Will they do as on the iPad 2, make the battery smaller but keep essentially the same battery life? What screen size will they adopt? If they go larger at the same resolution, they'll lose their retinal claims - if they go larger with higher resolution, will they be sending app designers back to the drawing boards? Will the new processor available in both their tablet and phone portend an iOS upgrade that leaves the previous generations behind (as is already done for security updates to earlier iPhones)?

I don't think there's a perfect phone or a perfect OS, I do think people should buy and enjoy what they like (without need for justification or rationalization), and I do think healthy competition benefits us all.

I've yet to see how bragging rights ties in to my paragraph above, other than to confuse potential consumers to the fact that no device is defined by a single dimension or component in its makeup. I would submit that for people like me, having a smartphone that does everything required of it and just works is bragging rights aplenty. I cheerfully wish this on owners of all new generation smartphones coming out this year.
 
There is a few things to consider too when iPhone 5/iOS 5 comes out.
When iOS 4.3 and iPad 2 came out,the SDK was updated to support openCL in IOS for the new SGX542MP GPU.

That in itself is very significant. This along w/ their GDC are the "under-the-plumbing" OS changes that will be a big deal.

So now, iOS apps can leverage the GPU for computational tasks.
Apps can not tap 4-cores for computational things.

2- CPU cores, 2-GPU cores. I'm hoping it has 4 GPU cores like the new Sony playstation

So you can crunch spreadsheet numbers being aided by the GPU.

the iPad2's iMovie has been re-program to take advantage of this. And the shocking thing is... the iPAD 2 encodes 720p video faster than some mac laptops. Thats pretty incredible when a $500 tablet is faster than a $1500 laptop for video.
I'm sure the h.264 accelerated GPU has a thing to do with it but that is very amazing.

See this article:
iPad 2 Beats Out MacBook Pros In iMovie Speed Tests! :: App Advice

and this

It turns out that tablets are good for content creation… sometimes
 
The HP 9845 workstation used a bit-slice processor for graphics - we used to tap it for computation and that was more than effective. In that case, however, once that processor was used that way, it was no longer available for graphics processing. Unless I'm missing something, while that's indeed a neat trick for the A5 and OpenCL, I don't think you'll get a free lunch out of it but that does sound very promising for a number of app possibilities.

SoC breakthroughs continue to amaze and astound. In case you're interested -

Apple A5 vs A4 Floorplan Comparison
 
Apple is not making the chip so I don't see what all the fuss is about. By the time this comes out, Samsung will probably have something better or comparable already in the mix. This is how technology is, no one ever stays atop the pecking order for long.
 
shawn1224 said:
This is how technology is, no one ever stays atop the pecking order for long.
Click to expand...

Well, Microsoft sure stays at the "top of the pecking order," at least in the U.S., by holding everybody else in that market down.

I shudder to think what would have happened (not happened, actually) with hand held device technology had Microsoft plied their tactics in that market as they did in the PC operating systems market.

From an old article about the class action lawsuit against them in Minnesota:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"All of Microsoft's conduct was designed to acquire and hang on to their monopoly,'' said Eugene Crew, a lawyer at Townsend, Townsend & Crew, based in San Francisco. "Consumers were harmed by being deprived of choice. The greatest harm out of the Go story was the suppression of innovation and new technology by Microsoft."[/FONT]

Newly Released Documents Shed Light on Microsoft Tactics

Imagine where PC technology would be if it had been free to develop without constantly running into Gates and company's absurd strong arm strategies in the market.

But that's another thread. ;)
 
If the iPhone 5 is using the A5 then I don't know is the only answer, I don't see anything yet that matches this new PowerVR chip, other than a Cortex A9 with the same GPU which no Android phone appears to be using in the near future.

If Apple stick a decent sized display on the new iPhone I'll actually be very tempted by the new iPhone 5.

The only SoC which could match it was the new one from Samsung but the early performance numbers are just awful, a tad slower than Tegra 2, they would have been better of sticking wih the SGX540 ffs. :mad:

Either the benchmarks are wrong or somebody at Samsung really messed up.
 
mrspeedmaster said:
A new Samsung Galaxy S variant.

They're the only ones w/ comparable SOCs, multimedia support, camera quality, audio processor.
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^ This.

After all, the A4 and quite possibly the A5 chips wouldn't be what they are without Samsung. Now that Samsung is losing Apple as a major customer, there's less conflict of interest.

Judging by some recent announcements of new mobile devices coming out, Samsung seems prepared to take Apple head on. Didn't Sony say they wanted to be 2nd place behind Apple? They better worry about Samsung first!
 
shawn1224 said:
Apple is not making the chip so I don't see what all the fuss is about. By the time this comes out, Samsung will probably have something better or comparable already in the mix. This is how technology is, no one ever stays atop the pecking order for long.
Click to expand...

They don't manufactur the chips but they do design the SOC architecture. They bought out the company that designed the Hummingbird (Intrinsity).
Every mobile CPU processor company, Qualcomm, TI, Nvidia, Marvell license the ARM reference designs and makes changes they see fit for their usage.

Lotus doesn't make the engine in their cars. They license it from Toyota and tweak the hell out of it to get the most HP per Liter.
Intrinsity SOC's designers is the same analogy. AAPL will simply take their blue-prints to another fabrication company.
 
I think we'll get to see if there's benefit from the Apple app dev community from iPad 2 development and anticipation of the iP5 (see mrspeedmaster's other posts for more info on Apple's dual-core dev preparations) - because it's not about an SoC or benchmarks - it's about apps and usability.

For people not into gaming or 3D, GPU processing power is going to hit a point of diminishing returns. For people with 2D interfaces using their phones as phones and internet appliances, CPU processing power is going to hit a point of diminishing returns.

It's back to the parable of the two guys in the woods that see the bear and one stops to put on his track shoes. "You can't outrun the bear!" screams his buddy, and he replies - "I only have to outrun you."

I'll predict if these makers are smart, they're going to lower clock speeds to give longer battery life - they don't have to race the benchmark (the bear) just each other. Pretty sure that thinking is already alive and well in light of the iP4 being clocked at 800 MHz instead of 1 GHz, and the many root-only kernels in the Android world that people are already enjoying to do that same thing to increase battery life.

Thanks to AF, I've learned a lot about the iP4's built-in gyroscope - I think that is probably a killer component for gaming, yet I don't see Android catching up with that. By the same token, I don't see Apple catching up with the Sony Experia Play because it takes the human interface back into known territory with another approach -

Xperia-play-en.jpg





I think if the advanced processors coming down the pike are to be of real value for the overall market, we need to go past the diminishing returns and past the gamers.

I don't know how many of you might consider this next sort of thing advanced, but it's an example of what I'm driving at - the processing power to provide an ability to give new approaches to the UIs - for the shell (launcher) and the apps themselves -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROca7ao-Tqw

In any case - my guess is not news - the killer SoCs this year are likely to be the A5, the OMAP 4 (that I'm on record as predicting as the real killer since last summer, but now finally coming), the Samsung Exynos (Sony XE spelled backwards unless that's a coincidence), the Tegra-2 and Snapdragon 8x60.

How will it play out in mindshare?

Remains to be seen. By benchmarks, the A4 as embodied in the iP4 doesn't really stand up to the Snapdragon 8x55 by most measures, yet many still believe the iP4 is superior and go on to cite software.

Which is where I began.

Because in the end, I think it will come down to mainstream apps and how iOS 5 will stack up against Ice Cream (Sandwich(*)) and how the overall devices will compare to each other - influenced by, but not at all limited to, their SoC processor.

What I'd personally like to see in the next generation is multiple windows. I'd like to got to Free and legal music downloads - Jamendo select an album, hit play, get the pop-up, iconify both windows, and do things in another window while the music continues playing - and not notice performance hits in whatever else I'm doing.

Until then, I think we're getting a warped shadow of the internet and no benchmarks are likely to matter.

These are just my opinions, tho.

PS - for those that missed them, here are a few interesting comparisons -

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4179/ti-omap4-and-lg-optimus-3d-tested
 
AustinTech said:
Processing power has never been the problem with iPhones.

It's the technofacisim, cult following, restricted access to your own phone, and horrible bordom of the iOS. No fixes for that.
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Could someone explain this to me? I'm in the process of deciding between an iPhone and an Android device, and even though I always hear that Android phones are more "customizable," I don't really get what this means to me as just a regular consumer. What can I do with an Android phone that I can't do with an iPhone?
 
The bottom line for me is getting ARM to a point where it can take down intel cpu's. I want android to have real apps such as something comparable to Microsoft Office so I can have a laptop in my pocket.
 
tpottebaum said:
Could someone explain this to me? I'm in the process of deciding between an iPhone and an Android device, and even though I always hear that Android phones are more "customizable," I don't really get what this means to me as just a regular consumer. What can I do with an Android phone that I can't do with an iPhone?
Click to expand...

It's maybe more a case of doing things in a different way - they're both great products, therefore, they both sell well. Many people seem to be making the switch to Android because of the difference.

First - iTunes. If you have an iPhone, you _will_ use iTunes. Personally, I have a Mac, I used iTunes on it, it's not a big deal. Others find iTunes invasive for PCs (it is true that the Windows iTunes doesn't really integrate as well as the same on the Mac). This can be a deal maker, breaker or don't care. You can use equivalent means in Android and those methods all give you a choice for how you manage things like your media.

Second - carriers. iPhones are available on ATT and Verizon - Android phones can be had on any carrier.

Third - features. Until you jailbreak an iPhone, you really only get to use it the way Apple designed. With Android, you get a choice of handsets all of which offer more customization out of the box. Android jailbreaking is called rooting and that offers even more options. Without jailbreaking/rooting, most Androids offer more flexibility than the iPhone.

Fourth - apps. They say you can do more on an iPhone, but your primary apps on Android, such as GPS and navigation and many, many others will be free. These will cost extra on the iPhone. Android devices running version 2.2 or better (the majority) also offer full Flash browsing without additional-cost add-ons.

Android's battlecry is that choice is good, and you can customize the phone layout to make it suit your own personal needs. When both platforms offer hundred of thousands of apps, some of us feel strongly that ability - not requirement, ability - to personalize the phone cuts through the confusion.

Those are my opinions, hope that helps.

edit - Many of the phones have customizations to the home screens, usually 7 of them. Rather than being 7 pages of little buttons with app icon, Android phones include active widgets. On my wife's phone, 1 page is for her active calendar, one for music (built-in and FM radio), one for calls, one for internet apps (browser bookmarks, twitter, maps, etc), one for a photo gallery, one for a quick calculator (plus the lesser-used apps hidden in the drawer).

On mine, I have one for my active calendar, one for development/debugging tools, one for reference works, one for game and distractions, one for media, one for primary phone functions.

Yet - we each use the same brand of phone and both of our phones were pretty much identical out-of-the-box.

Our uses and styles dictated our home screen layouts.
 
ari-free said:
you also have to remember that the ipad2 has lower resolution than the xoom. So there's less to process.
Nevertheless nvidia will definitely be taken to task.
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This is really interesting. IF I remember right when the original droid came out on Verizon every one was drooling over the screen. The Iphone4 was the answer with a slightly higher resolution but that was it. No more Androids compared in resolution. Of course then you started seeing 4"+ screens and apples only response was the ipad. I remember Jobs making fun of little screens yet there is no iphone with a 4" screen. And now the ipad2 doesn't even have the same resolution as the xoom?

I'm not interested in tablets at all but the war here is confusing.
 
I thought Apple would actually respond to the Droid. That they'd offer at least a 3.7" screen if not a 4", replaceable battery and SD slot. Not quite sure why they are against those things but we'll have to wait and see what iphone5 brings.
I'd be really surprised if they came up with a keyboard version even though android phones are having a field day going after that market.
 
CaliforniaMan said:
Now that we know the Apple A5 is a beast, what Android phone will be able to compete with iPHONE5?

I was not expecting this iPAD 2 to out power the Xoom. The Xoom has more ram and a Tegra 2 but yet it still took a beating when compared to the ipad 2! I was expecting the A5 chip to be kinda soft and deliver only a margin increase over the original ipad. Apple Delivered! The iphone 5 will be awesome and we have no Android devices that can counter this now that it is proven that Apple's A5 processor can easily defeat a Tegra 2.
We also have no Android devices coming in the near future that can outperform the Apple A5 chip , now that it is proven that Apple's A5 processor can easily defeat a Tegra 2
Click to expand...


There's one that can match the A5, and that's Samsung's Orion aka Exeryon chip. The A5 and this appear to be close twin siblings. In any case, its all moot when Samsung starts making plenty of the next generation Galaxy SII and Tabs.

The OMAP4400, Tegra2 and the upcoming Snapdragon 8660 appear to be better than the A5 when it comes to raw computing (not graphics processing) power though. They appear to clock higher (1.2GHz to 1.5GHz vs. the A5's 900Mhz) too.
 
Guamguy said:
There's one that can match the A5, and that's Samsung's Orion aka Exeryon chip. The A5 and this appear to be close twin siblings. In any case, its all moot when Samsung starts making plenty of the next generation Galaxy SII and Tabs.

The OMAP4400, Tegra2 and the upcoming Snapdragon 8660 appear to be better than the A5 when it comes to raw computing (not graphics processing) power though. They appear to clock higher (1.2GHz to 1.5GHz vs. the A5's 900Mhz) too.
Click to expand...

All upcoming dual core phones seem to be clocked at 1GHz so there all pretty even when it comes to raw processing, 100MHz is not going to make a difference worth noting.

The only thing that really separates the new SoC's are the GPU's and we have nothing available now or in the near future that can compete with the SGX543X2.

I think ultimately we will have to wait for Tegra 3 or until somebody uses the same GPU in an Android phone.

I just hope the Mali 400 MP results from Anandtech are not representative of the final performance.
 
Shocky said:
All upcoming dual core phones seem to be clocked at 1GHz so there all pretty even when it comes to raw processing, 100MHz is not going to make a difference worth noting.
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This is incorrect. That's like saying first gear and second gear give the same speed at 1000 RPMs. Clock speed is just ONE aspect of a CPU's performance. Right now, there are three high-end MPCore's we're dealing with;

Cortex-A8 (iPhone 3G S, 4, iPad, phones using the Hummingbird and TI OMAP SOCs)
Scorpion - (anything using a Snapdragon)
Cortex A9 - (iPad 2, likely iPhone 5, OMAP 4, Samsung's upcoming Exynos SOC, Tegra 2)

Clock for clock, Cortex A9 is roughly 20% faster than A8. Scorpion is roughly 5% faster than A8. A9 and Scorpion have support for 128-bit SIMD instructions while A8 is limited to 64-bit (main reason Snapdragon kills OMAP/Hummingbird in Linpack). All 3 MPCores can support NEON instructions sets. Anything using Scorpion or A8 DOES support NEON. Tegra removed NEON from Tegra 2's A9 to save on manufacturing costs, but Tegra 3 will have it. This kills performance in some areas. Exynos and OMAP 4 are expected to support NEON.

Then there's the multi-core aspect. Scorpion and A9 have support for up to quad-core, while A8 is limited to single core. Don't tell me that you honestly expect a 1ghz single-core to be the same speed as a 1ghz dual-core just because they are both 1ghz.

In terms of overall speed, it's A9 > Scorpion > A8. However, due to the removal of NEON, there will be some differences within the A9 segment. It should be;

A5/OMAP4/Exynos > Tegra (all indications are that A5 = Exynos, just as A4 = Hummingbird). And no one, NO ONE, in the industry expected the new PowerVR to kill Tegra 2. They were expected to be on par. We'll have a better idea when Exynos comes out and we can compare the two GPUs on the same OS.
 
EarlyMon said:
Apple's going to need a lot of iron close to assembly to be effective. Scuttlebutt is that after Samsung, TSMC is next in line to fab the A5.
Click to expand...

The A5s on the soon to be released iPad 2s are still using Samsung fabs. But the iphone 5 will probably use TSMC chips.

What was interesting with the A5 chip was a special circuitry for an advanced power management system. I guess to handle usage of your cores depending on the application. I'm not a hardware expert but you might be intrigued by this.

I don't have the bookmark of the A5 teardown on this machine but I'll provide the link when I can post from my home laptop.
 
Medion said:
This is incorrect..
Click to expand...

I quite clearly said dual core, when comparing the A5 to A9 100MHz is not going to make much difference in the real world and I stand by that.

You can't honestly believe that or any other minor change will make any noticable difference to the end user?

Lots of good information, but I don't agree with you.
 
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