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Root [CDMA] No need to panic about 'locked' bootloader - HTC listened

I understand that being forced to look for new exploits over and over must be frustrating..it might also be that this latest generation of HTC phones is the proverbial last straw...especially given how Samsung, Motorola and Sony Ericsson are now drastically changing course..Here's a couple of tweets:

Twitter

He's a member of Teamdouche and this was MASSIVELY retweeted by various devs, including Cyanogen

And from O'Brien:

Twitter

As I said, I don't remember anything similar when the Desire, Incredible, EVO, Desire Z and DHD came out and they seem to be focusing on the "locked" issue.. Maybe it's just like you said novox77, tougher nuts to crack. Let's hope they all get cracked eventually :D
 
Perhaps volume also plays a part in this pressure. HTC announced end of last year to their suppliers to expect their volume sales in smartphones to triple this year - first quarter posted results says they're well on their way to meeting that target.

I saw the Motorola announcement that they would do something about their bootloaders, but I don't know if they've changed that yet or not.
 
I've been following the Moto Bootloader thing for a bit now. None of their currently released phones or near future phones are slated to get the unlockable bootloader. I think the official announcement said phones released in Q4 '11 might have unlockable bootloaders, with carrier consent. So no love for DX2 or D3. Considering VZW is their biggest carrier, and VZW is starting to really lock down on various things (tether and trying to track who is rooted), I find it unlikely that VZW will give up the keys. I doubt ATT bucks the trend, either. Moto knows this and I think they're just trying to save PR face by pledging unlockable bootloaders and making it so VZW/ATT take the heat for holding the keys.

The only carrier that seems to give a damn about it's customers seems to be Sprint. T-Mo is selling out...err merging, so I can only imagine what T-Mo customers are going through right now. So maybe the E3D (and future Evo line phones) will be safe/safer because Sprint wants customers and isn't breathing down HTC's neck to secure bootloaders. Maybe they would even be breathing down HTC's neck to not secure the bootloaders because Sprint sees the opportunity to be a niche carrier that can grow if more devs develop ROMs and such for their phones, and not so much for VZW and ATT phones.
 
I have a HTC/Sprint Hero, rooted and running aospCMod-2.3.4. If I had not had the capability to move beyond what Sprint provided (2.1), I would have probably bought another phone. So Sprint and perhaps HTC have not received more of my money -- yet! But, I think rooted users who get longer life out of their phones are probably rather insignificant, in terms of volume, in the whole scheme of things.
 
Confirmed: EVO 3D’s Bootloader, Recovery, and Kernel Images All Locked Down | Android News, Reviews, Apps, Games, Phones, Tablets, Tips, Mods, Videos, Tutorials - Android Police

So, it appears that this is confirming what we really already knew, and by my reading, far and away the most likely way that we'll get "unlocked" is with a leaked engineering ROM or something of that nature.

Seems like something that isn't a huge worry now, but would be a significant let down if it even severely impeded custom rom support.

Edit: Seemed to have a bit more actual info that previous doom and gloom articles, which was nice for a change.
 
Actually, the way I read that article, it's saying that HTC is now going the way of Motorola, which would be a cause for 'panic.' But the article also states that it's still possible to replace the HBOOT with the Engineering version.... And by inference, the reason why the Droid X hasn't been hacked is because an Engineering HBOOT was never leaked... Seems improbable but not impossible.

So... it could be that HTC did start beefing up their bootloader security with their recent phones. This is the first article that comes out to say that this bootloader is locked down exactly like Motorola... I'm going to keep monitoring to see if devs can confirm this.
 
Well, its official. Evo3d bootloader is locked. The evo 4g will be my last htc phone unless they change this. Samsung has a new customer. I will miss htc sense. But Id rather have a working phone that I can install what I want than a phone that is locked with sense.
 
Given that the author of that article claimed he's butchering a few things, I'll prefer to cross-check a few things and see also what novox77 ferets out before calling this official.

Stand by for every other blog to misrepresent this in 3... 2...

(And if it is official, understand your concerns - the SGS2 is ringing in as a great phone.)

And fwiw - no one has ever explained to me why, if carriers pressure for this as the article claims, then why doesn't the Nexus S 4G have this? What about the other Sammys? Therefore - not carrier pressure, only missing blog logic.
 
Still digging, but found this in the meantime. Motorola might be reconsidering its stance on bootloader security???

Motorola promises unlocked bootloaders for future Android phones? (update) -- Engadget

Also, I looked into the eFuse. Initial reports claimed that the eFuse could physically change the circuitry and hard-brick the phone. Motorola later came out to say this was false; that if the eFuse is tripped, the phone gets thrown into recovery mode. It will boot normally once the original image(s) are replaced.

It's still unclear if HTC is using eFuse, so we don't know what the consequences if we start messing around. Jackie's article seems to indicate it will behave just like Motorolas. But that seems to be assuming that HTC is using eFuse, which is a separate issue from the whole encrypted bit.
 
I saw on the Phandroid news page that Evo 3D will have a locked bootloader, so no rooting. I wonder why HTC have implemented this?

The rooting of the Desire, for instance, isn't doing anyone any harm, it's no worse than taking a Vista laptop and installing Ubuntu. I've never read of a booted phone being able to do "illegal" stuff that the handset maker didn't intend. Not that I've ever rooted, I'm keen to try it out though.
 
partridge said:
I saw on the Phandroid news page that Evo 3D will have a locked bootloader, so no rooting. I wonder why HTC have implemented this?

The rooting of the Desire, for instance, isn't doing anyone any harm, it's no worse than taking a Vista laptop and installing Ubuntu. I've never read of a booted phone being able to do "illegal" stuff that the handset maker didn't intend. Not that I've ever rooted, I'm keen to try it out though.
Click to expand...

I've copied an edited version of your post to here.

Does Google have the push to disallow rooting now?

Google Movies Blocked on Rooted Devices

Maybe this has nothing at all do with carriers or phone makers protecting their intellectual property.

Maybe this all has to do with the strong arm of the MPAA and that wonder fail, DRM - defective by design.
 
EarlyMon said:
I've copied an edited version of your post to here.

Does Google have the push to disallow rooting now?

Google Movies Blocked on Rooted Devices

Maybe this has nothing at all do with carriers or phone makers protecting their intellectual property.

Maybe this all has to do with the strong arm of the MPAA and that wonder fail, DRM - defective by design.
Click to expand...


I tend to agree with you, this was probably just part of the deal that MPAA forced Google into.

The noob question I have on this, is could their be a class action lawsuit if HTC did block rooting on their phones? Especially because a lot of the marketing message Google uses pretty much talks about how open source it is....well if you can't root it doesn't that pretty much make the open source thing totally moot?

This could get pretty sticky for Google.
 
And at all times - what's the deal then with the Nexus S 4G being easily opened? Consumer classism?

And how would be in line for the makers to go along with encrypted bootloaders? Why not just rely on the movie downloads failing?

Legal liability to the MPAA is a reason that springs immediately to mind.

And how about this news from the other day?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-felony-charges-for-illegal-web-streaming.ars

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...authorized-internet-streaming-to-a-felony.ars
 
Hopefully something leaks and this won't be an issue by launch. I've got a preorder on it, and was going to be a day one buy, but I'm not sure I want it at all if it's possible that we'll be stuck without custom rom support for good. Pity really, but this will certainly make me reevaluate a purchase, and many others, but probably not enough to put a dent in HTC's bottom line so they reconsider.

Having read a bit more, it kind of looks like unless we get lucky, that could be the case.

The original link that I posted a few posts back seemed to paint a rather hopeful picture with all of the bad news, and this (essentially repost of the same thing) takes it even further...but it's simply by saying

the best bet to gaining access to development on the handset is via a workaround that could include locating a leaked development ROM or finding a way to trick the EVO 3D’s bootloader. We’ll leave that up to the more than capable development and rooting community. They’ve faced hurdles before, but rarely have they failed at cracking whatever handset they choose.
Click to expand...

Additional article, but really just a repost of earlier: EVO 3D Features Same Locked Bootloader as HTC Sensation
 
Ok, after a lot of digging, I think I'm able to clear things up.

HTC has indeed changed the way it locks down its phones (notice how I said 'phones' and not 'bootloader.'). Here are the differences, assuming I've understood everything I've found through pages and pages of various forums:

1) bootloader image was signed on the Evo 4G but was not encrypted. This is actually irrelevant because the original unlock was achieved by replacing the HBOOT image with a leaked HTC engineering image. So even if the Evo4G's HBOOT signature was encrypted, it wouldn't have mattered; the engineering HBOOT would be signed correctly anyway.

2) new HTC phones are cryptographically signing their images. That means you can't forge a signature without the encryption key. It's unlikely devs can brute-force this.

3) new HTC phones are now signing the /boot and /recovery images. These were never signed in the older HTC phones. Possibly /system requires a signature as well. What this means is: no custom kernel (which lives in /boot); no custom recovery (which lives in /recovery); and no custom ROM (which lives in /system).

4) Motorola did not protect/sign /recovery and /system, which meant you could still flash a custom recovery and a custom ROM without the bootloader throwing a fuss. But /boot is off limits, so any ROM for Motorola's locked-down phones will have to utilize the stock kernel.

5) So it's looking like the only way we are going to get 100% freedom is if the engineering bootloader gets leaked. I assume the Eng HBOOT will not enforce the signature of the various partitions: /boot /recovery /system, which will allow us to flash custom kernels, recoveries, and roms.

As for my OP, it would seem to be irrelevant at this point, given the new details that have emerged and assuming they are true. Unlocking this phone WILL be harder than it was with previous HTC phones. We may be at the mercy of a leak.

That said, rooting the phone in its literal meaning (granting superuser permission) should still be very doable. Most apps requiring a rooted phone will work.
 
EarlyMon said:
Maybe this has nothing at all do with carriers or phone makers protecting their intellectual property.

Maybe this all has to do with the strong arm of the MPAA and that wonder fail, DRM - defective by design.
Click to expand...

Certainly possible, but you've even argued against yourself here since mentioning that some others (for example, the Nexus) aren't going this same route.
 
Jackieteehorn said:
Certainly possible, but you've even argued against yourself here since mentioning that some others (for example, the Nexus) aren't going this same route.
Click to expand...

Well - I think it's fair to say that I've been over the map enough to just call it what it is - I've contradicted myself in places.

My point in mentioning this was in response to burgertime's questioning of a class-action lawsuit - how can some makers be under outside pressure to really lock things down when other makers are not?

Is there outside pressure? Or is this just HTC (and Motorola) acting on their corporate whims???

And we'll have to dig into the Apache vs. GNU licensing issues that may be at stake here.

If we're lucky, there's a legal mechanism users can bring to bear - otherwise - this is going to be one tough row to hoe.
 
This...seriously makes me re-consider this phone. I may just wait till the end of the year regardless of release date.

With Andy Rubin of Google hinting a Nexus with quad core/Ice Cream Sandwich in 4Q and Nvidia saying they are working closely with Google in regards to ICS/Tegra 3, my mind is settling into a new waiting game already. Six months for a quad core, Nexus, ICS? Yeah, that sounds tempting now.
 
More bad news and more bad news... I wasn't too concerned about the bootloader, but locked/signed BOOT and RECOVERY paths make me uneasy. Bad move HTC, bad move.

While I am upset and feel like throwing my loyalties out the door at this moment, I am going to wait for some news later. I haven't pre-ordered the phone yet, thankfully I've been too busy (was planning on going Friday).

I'm sure with the HTC brand loyalties and following of the E4G we will see and ENG leak.. soon, very very soon. Also, plenty of Sensation owners will want customization, too.
 
EarlyMon said:
Well - I think it's fair to say that I've been over the map enough to just call it what it is - I've contradicted myself in places.

My point in mentioning this was in response to burgertime's questioning of a class-action lawsuit - how can some makers be under outside pressure to really lock things down when other makers are not?

Is there outside pressure? Or is this just HTC (and Motorola) acting on their corporate whims???

And we'll have to dig into the Apache vs. GNU licensing issues that may be at stake here.

If we're lucky, there's a legal mechanism users can bring to bear - otherwise - this is going to be one tough row to hoe.
Click to expand...


Well what made me think of a class action lawsuit was over the jail breaking of iphones....but when I looked into it, it's actually just a clause in the DCMA...that being said, if it could be proven that HTC was doing this because of the MPAA I would think that would be illegal. Then again I'm not law expert by a long shot.

U.S. Declares iPhone Jailbreaking Legal, Over Apple?s Objections | Threat Level | Wired.com

Looking more into it, how is it legal for them to do this based on the law?

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2006/11/new-dmca-exemptions-granted

The question is, can this law be used to take them to court? Or is it simply a protection for consumers to not get sued?

The Librarian of Congress has announced the classes of works subject to the exemption from the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works. Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls (17 U.S.C.
Click to expand...
 
SaleenFiend said:
More bad news and more bad news... I wasn't too concerned about the bootloader, but locked/signed BOOT and RECOVERY paths make me uneasy. Bad move HTC, bad move.

While I am upset and feel like throwing my loyalties out the door at this moment, I am going to wait for some news later. I haven't pre-ordered the phone yet, thankfully I've been too busy (was planning on going Friday).

I'm sure with the HTC brand loyalties and following of the E4G we will see and ENG leak.. soon, very very soon. Also, plenty of Sensation owners will want customization, too.
Click to expand...

exactly how I feel atm. impulse is telling me to boycott HTC, but things could suddenly turn for the better. And I'm thinking.... someone's gotta take one for the team and leak this engineering build!

Release date of this phone is now taking a backseat to the developments around the current locked/signed constraints. Makes me appreciate my current Evo a little more.
 
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