Root [Verizon] where can i get news about this locked bootloader business?

[thanat0s24]

As the title says, where can I get news on this BS verizon is pulling? I called them today and spoke to two tech guys, neither of them even know what the hell a bootloader was, nor knew any news on verizon unlocking it..

 

[Metfanant]

As the title says, where can I get news on this BS verizon is pulling? I called them today and spoke to two tech guys, neither of them even know what the hell a bootloader was, nor knew any news on verizon unlocking it..

Verizon isn't going to unlock it...and its more than likely (probable even) that it will never be unlocked by developers either...

however its almost unnecessary at this point because of kexec

 

[jova33]

however its almost unnecessary at this point because of kexec

What's this? I think the locked bootloader is one of those things that prevented me from getting a vzw s3

 

[Metfanant]

What's this? I think the locked bootloader is one of those things that prevented me from getting a vzw s3

we can flash custom kernels it just has to be done in a different way...the kernel has to be flashed to the recovery partition and loaded from there...its not super elegant...but it works just fine

 

[Rolo42]

As the title says, where can I get news on this BS verizon is pulling?

You can't flash a custom kernel/boot.img on the VZW version. My guess is they wanted to prevent overclocking/overvolting.

Perhaps between the kexec workaround and FCC complaints (ask VZW to unlock your bootloader so you can use your phone on another network; when they say "No", complain to the FCC for block C rules violation), they will unlock it.

 

[Metfanant]

You can't flash a custom kernel/boot.img on the VZW version. My guess is they wanted to prevent overclocking/overvolting.

you certainly can flash custom kernels on the VZW version...

Perhaps between the kexec workaround and FCC complaints (ask VZW to unlock your bootloader so you can use your phone on another network; when they say "No", complain to the FCC for block C rules violation), they will unlock it.

the bootloader has NOTHING to do with Block C regulations...let me repeat that...the bootloader has NOTHING to do with Block C regulations...anyone trying to convince you it does is simply an idiot that has failed to comprehend what Block C even is...

 

[Rolo42]

You cannot flash a custom kernel in boot.img; that is the part that is locked.

If VZW will not unlock your bootloader so you can take your phone to another carrier, that is a block C violation. Complete with references:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/109uYmho_6daIpAl0ACPSFoK0qrd6K9wp5yeqM7dEaoI/edit

 

[Metfanant]

You cannot flash a custom kernel in boot.img; that is the part that is locked.

yeah, but you can flash it to the recovery partition and it works just fine...

If VZW will not unlock your bootloader so you can take your phone to another carrier, that is a block C violation. Complete with references:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/109uYmho_6daIpAl0ACPSFoK0qrd6K9wp5yeqM7dEaoI/edit

this isn't personal...but this is frankly too easy...

you're missing the point...as that has nothing to do with the bootloader lol...VZW owns the whole spectrum (Block C)...the regulations DO NOT say that VZW must allow you to unlock your phone so that you can use it on Block C...actually its the EXACT opposite...Block C regulations state...

(b) Use of devices and applications. Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee’s C Block network, except:

this means that VZW cannot block devices from THEIR OWN NETWORK...our phones are NOT blocked from using the spectrum that Verizon owns (Block C)...

does anyone on these forums have a Droid X, Droid 2, D2G, D3, D4, DX2, Bionic, RAZR, RAZR Maxx, or even a GS3 that has not been able to use the VZW owned Block C?...nope, didn't think so...

Now, you would be right in saying that there is a provision stating that they cannot keep you from using your device on another carrier's network...this is true...it states

(e) Handset locking prohibited. No licensee may disable features on handsets it provides to customers, to the extent such features are compliant with the licensee’s standards pursuant to paragraph (b) of this section, nor configure handsets it provides to prohibit use of such handsets on other providers’ networks.

great! beautiful right?...WRONG...

the problem then becomes a nightmare...

Tech: remember that all new devices (including the SGS3) use a CDMA radio for voice and its LTE radio for data...the CDMA radio is NOT covered under the Block C regulations and is therefore excempt from these rules...only the LTE radio is covered here...

VZW only has to prove that there is any sort of threat to their network by running unapproved software, and that would be EASY for them to prove...

the ONLY Block C regulation you have to stand on is the last i posted...and that ONLY applies if youre planning to use the device on ANOTHER carriers network...they technically can't stop you...but they do NOT have to unlock a device that is already on THEIR network...PERIOD...

you're only course of action is to petetion VZW to unlock your device so that you can use it on ATT, TMo, Sprint, whoever's network...if they refuse then you fight...if you win and they unlock your device...you won't be allowed back on their network...

Block C says NOTHING about them being required to unlock ANY phones that are on their network...they just cant stop you from leaving and using your device elsewhere...

this does us NO GOOD...the reason we have the VZW version is because we all know that VZW has arguably the best service in the nation...if we wanted to be on a different carrier we could have just bought a different version of the phone...but we all chose Big Red as our provider, and they provided us with a device that is 100% functional on their network...end of story...end of argument...

Not to mention...will your device even work on the carrier network you want to go to?...

as you can read in THIS ARTICLE not all LTE networks are created equal...different LTE providers are using different spectrums anyway...totally destroying the idea that you even COULD take your phone elsewhere...you would need to find a CDMA network (for your voice) and an LTE network in the upper 700mhz band (for data)...unfortunately VZW owns the entire upper 700mhz spectrum...so where are you gonna go??

 

[Rolo42]

yeah, but you can flash it to the recovery partition and it works just fine...

Not everyone agrees and not everyone wants to operate that way (personally, I don't want my phone to take longer to boot than my PC).

The bigger consequence, again, is that it further fragments the VZW SIII development from the rest of SIII development (compare what's available for us vs. the rest of the SIIIs to prove the point). It's like East Germany compared to West Germany--or even better, North Korea compared to South Korea in industrial and technical innovation and availability.

the regulations DO NOT say that VZW must allow you to unlock your phone so that you can use it on Block C

this means that VZW cannot block devices from THEIR OWN NETWORK...our phones are NOT blocked from using the spectrum that Verizon owns (Block C)...

Au contraire, mon fr

 

[Metfanant]

Not everyone agrees and not everyone wants to operate that way (personally, I don't want my phone to take longer to boot than my PC).

agreed...but that doesn't mean we can't do it...and how often do you have to boot up honestly?

The bigger consequence, again, is that it further fragments the VZW SIII development from the rest of SIII development (compare what's available for us vs. the rest of the SIIIs to prove the point). It's like East Germany compared to West Germany--or even better, North Korea compared to South Korea in industrial and technical innovation and availability.

agreed...but its not like the VZW version doesn't have great developers...

Au contraire, mon fr

 

[Rolo42]

agreed...but that doesn't mean we can't do it...and how often do you have to boot up honestly?

Third and last time I'll say this: you cannot flash a custom (unauthorised) kernel to boot.img. VZW shouldn't be in a position to "authorise" software. Workarounds aren't relevant and aren't the issue.

agreed...but its not like the VZW version doesn't have great developers...

I don't know but I can't say I've been impressed so far. Besides, that's like saying, "you aren't destitute and living on the street, so life must be peachy!"

what? the tethering apps? please...the document you posted shoots itself in the foot right off the bat...

Block C says any app. Tethering is especially included (or were you not aware of FCC smacking VZW down for blocking third-party tethering apps using this very document?)

its not irrelevnt if the hardware itself prevents the interoperability!

You must have missed my edit as I mentioned our phones are GSM capable. As for other hardware, you'll have to provide a Block C reference that makes that exception as I cannot find one.

what about Synergy ROM for our phones removing the exchange policy from the phone?...does removing exchange security checks and other such modifications not pose a potential threat to security??...i think so

Again, you haven't cited a specific, widely-accepted technical standard as required by Block C that SynergyROM would not comply with. Block C is explicit in order to discount slippery-slope arguments. By your rationale, Google/Amazon Play Stores are a potential threat to security as they have/can contain/ed malicious logic.

because you're the ones twisting the Block C regulations to fit your needs...

I'm sorry; I've cited Block C's explicit language and applied it literally. I'm not seeing where you're pointing out any misinterpretation; I'm not one for ad hominem personal attacks (attack the argument, not the person sort of thing).

the document likens installing custom ROMs to the ability to buy a computer and not be able to install the OS of your choice....

That is an accurate parallel. If you want to install Ubuntu or OS X or Windows 8 preview on your Dell/Asus/Gateway/Falcon Northwest/Alienware, etc. PC, then you can. If they made it so you couldn't, there'd be quite the uproar (and loss of sales).

A more accurate parallel would be if Comcast/Quest/Any ISP locked down your computer so you couldn't install a different OS or use any applications that required root/Administrator privileges. I doubt that would go over very well but somehow VZW should be treated differently even though they're really just another ISP (you don't need 4G to make regular voice calls).

...is there built in support on your home PC for Mac OSX?...nah i didn't think so...

I can't imagine what you're thinking here as Dell, Microsoft, Apple do provide support. As for my PC personally, I've always built my own and I've been very supportive of my efforts. My support comes from each component's manufacturer and none of them will void their warranty because I ran Ubuntu instead of Windows or for logging in with root/Administrator account. Does Dell say your warranty is void if you run software that requires an Administrator account? No, but VZW does (even though that's already illegal, cf. Magnusson-Moss Act).

"ok, well before you return your phone flash the stock ODIN file and do a factory reset to remove any trace of root"

That's because VZW doesn't support custom software that they did not provide (reasonable); to ensure your custom ROM isn't the issue, you must certainly go back to clean stock to see if the trouble continues (that's just basic troubleshooting) and if it does continue, you've ruled out custom software (which isn't supported nor should it required to be). As far as warranty goes, the law requires that VZW honour it unless they can reasonably show how your modifications caused the damage you are asking them to repair (i.e. overclock/overvolt); they cannot deny warranty service solely based on the fact that you modified the device (didn't we already have this conversation?).

thanks for helping out my point that the hardware prevents interoperability...that feature is there for the "global roaming" feature of our phones (that should be turned on soon i hope)...so yeah the phone WORKS...but its gimped by hardware restraints...

Show me where that's the case in Block C; otherwise, it is not relevant as I've already illustrated using said Block C. (Your assumptions don't weigh into legal decisions.)

I think I've demonstrated that I'm not an "idiot" with Block C and that I'm not "twisting" anything and said all I care to say in this discussion as anything further would only be to go around in circles. To the OP, I think you can find plenty of info right here!

 

[Metfanant]

Third and last time I'll say this: you cannot flash a custom (unauthorised) kernel to boot.img. VZW shouldn't be in a position to "authorise" software. Workarounds aren't relevant and aren't the issue.

and for the eleventybillionth time IT DOESN'T MATTER...nobody is debating whether you can flash anything to the boot.img partition...i made a statement that its just about irrelevant because you CAN flash a "custom (unauthorized) kernel" to the recovery partition and it performs EXACTLY the same except for the additional boot sequence to load the kernel...

and frankly yes Verizon probably SHOULD be in a position to authorize software...we are paying a license fee to access a network that THEY OWN...i don't think you would want anyone using any devices or executing any code which they felt they wanted to on your personal LAN correct?...thats probably why you have a secure network at home yeah?...

I don't know but I can't say I've been impressed so far. Besides, that's like saying, "you aren't destitute and living on the street, so life must be peachy!"

whats there not to be impressed with?...we have CM9 and CM10 with official kernels...we have stripped and debloated stock ROMs...we have modified stock ROMs....CM10 isn't official for ANY devices yet (including the GNex) and we have a very stable version working on our "horribly locked down" device...

Block C says any app. Tethering is especially included (or were you not aware of FCC smacking VZW down for blocking third-party tethering apps using this very document?)

im talking about this specific document that you linked to that you implored me to read so many times...where it states SPECIFICALLY...

Native to Android is the ability to tether# as well as initiate SIP# data voice calls. Verizon has stripped out these features in the name of requiring users to pay Verizon for access to these features. This is a clear violation of

 

[jova33]

I'm drunk, and I think I understand. The vzw gs3 you can't install a custom kernel that's available on every other s3. W which in my opinion is garbage. (Still drunk)but yeah, if Verizon gets the next nexus device and puts some bs in it like this, I'll be on board that train

 

[Metfanant]

I'm drunk, and I think I understand. The vzw gs3 you can't install a custom kernel that's available on every other s3. W which in my opinion is garbage. (Still drunk)but yeah, if Verizon gets the next nexus device and puts some bs in it like this, I'll be on board that train

Nexus Devices are by definition open...IF VZW carries the next Nexus phone it will be unlockable...

 

[jova33]

Samsung devices have been unlockable. The VZW S3 is the only one that isn't. From my understanding

 

[Metfanant]

Samsung devices have been unlockable. The VZW S3 is the only one that isn't. From my understanding

correct...but the Nexus family is a whole different discussion...Google would rather VZW not carry the phone than have it locked...i promise you that

 

[Rolo42]

I was |_| this close to getting the GNex instead for that very reason. Ultimately, I weighed hardware over OS.

 

[diabolicalism]

it doesn't have anything to do with Block C!!...except for Verizon being required to allow you to take your phone to another carrier...

HOWEVER...my point was that even if VZW unlocked your phone and allowed you to take it to a different network...your phone's hardware prevents the phone from functioning properly...

I edited out the rest of your rhetoric for the ease of attacking the points I'll be going for when I filed my complaint with the FCC.

Block "C" Regs are for phones using Verizon's 4g. All of Verizon's 4g phones are to abide by these regulations. Block C Regs do apply to these devices. If they didn't, Verizon would have stated that rather than send official responses talking about "network security" and "customer satisfaction." C'mon..

You should know, there is no difference, according to the tech 2 rep I spoke with at Samsung between the VZW SGS3 and the USCellular SGS3 variants. The only difference is, the encrypted boot loader. I'll go you one further and tell you that the Developers Edition device supposedly to be sold by Samsung will be a USCellular device whose MEID# has been uploaded to Verizon's database for use on their network. This is provided that VZW allows the Developers Edition to be sold using it's network in the first place. To clear this up for those who are interested- it means, if you could convince VZW to allow the MEID# of a USCellular S3 onto their (VZW's) network, you would effectively have a Developers Edition S3 on VZW's network. We know, however, that VZW will not allow a MEID# into their database that's not already in it. Ok- they're under no obligation to. We won't argue that.

Of course, this poses a problem when I want to take my VZW S3 to USCellular. USCellular, is willing to flash their software on the device, a device they already offer. USCellular, will not allow a device, running VZW Proprietary software on their network. Verizon wouldn't allow a device running it's proprietary software to be used on another network either, but for the sake of argument here.. USCellular, will only allow the device *IF* it's running USCellular software, receiving USCellular updates etc. None of which can happen, without being able to put their software on it. We already know that flashing any other carriers software, onto our phone will brick the VZW variant. This shouldn't be contested at this point. Therefore, one must consider that VZW has, in fact, configured it's devices to not be allowed on any network the user chooses. We're not talking about switching to ATT or Sprint- we're talking about USCellular. USCellular already piggy backs on VZW's network so it's easy for us to argue the point.. it's a no brainer. The radios are compatible. Everything is compatible except being able to actually make the swap!

This, is the violation of the Block C Regs. USCellular is a compatible network where there are no radio changes necessary. USCellular won't allow a device on it's network running VZW software. USCellular, wants to flash their software onto the VZW S3, but VZW has rendered it impossible via the encrypted boot loader.

This is going to get long, but it's worth it. I think you're smart, but you're not seeing it from the right angle... Here's the law:

 

[jova33]

Right on! Take that big red!

 

[Metfanant]

I edited out the rest of your rhetoric for the ease of attacking the points I'll be going for when I filed my complaint with the FCC.

Block "C" Regs are for phones using Verizon's 4g. All of Verizon's 4g phones are to abide by these regulations. Block C Regs do apply to these devices. If they didn't, Verizon would have stated that rather than send official responses talking about "network security" and "customer satisfaction." C'mon..

You should know, there is no difference, according to the tech 2 rep I spoke with at Samsung between the VZW SGS3 and the USCellular SGS3 variants. The only difference is, the encrypted boot loader. I'll go you one further and tell you that the Developers Edition device supposedly to be sold by Samsung will be a USCellular device whose MEID# has been uploaded to Verizon's database for use on their network. This is provided that VZW allows the Developers Edition to be sold using it's network in the first place. To clear this up for those who are interested- it means, if you could convince VZW to allow the MEID# of a USCellular S3 onto their (VZW's) network, you would effectively have a Developers Edition S3 on VZW's network. We know, however, that VZW will not allow a MEID# into their database that's not already in it. Ok- they're under no obligation to. We won't argue that.

Of course, this poses a problem when I want to take my VZW S3 to USCellular. USCellular, is willing to flash their software on the device, a device they already offer. USCellular, will not allow a device, running VZW Proprietary software on their network. Verizon wouldn't allow a device running it's proprietary software to be used on another network either, but for the sake of argument here.. USCellular, will only allow the device *IF* it's running USCellular software, receiving USCellular updates etc. None of which can happen, without being able to put their software on it. We already know that flashing any other carriers software, onto our phone will brick the VZW variant. This shouldn't be contested at this point. Therefore, one must consider that VZW has, in fact, configured it's devices to not be allowed on any network the user chooses. We're not talking about switching to ATT or Sprint- we're talking about USCellular. USCellular already piggy backs on VZW's network so it's easy for us to argue the point.. it's a no brainer. The radios are compatible. Everything is compatible except being able to actually make the swap!

This, is the violation of the Block C Regs. USCellular is a compatible network where there are no radio changes necessary. USCellular won't allow a device on it's network running VZW software. USCellular, wants to flash their software onto the VZW S3, but VZW has rendered it impossible via the encrypted boot loader.

This is going to get long, but it's worth it. I think you're smart, but you're not seeing it from the right angle... Here's the law:


Now, I understand- it may be too much to read- may be too hard to understand.. let me take it a step further...



We'll focus in on the juicy bit for those who still don't see it, or refuse to see it- whatever.. Let's break it down-



Not you or Verizon will talk themselves out of this one. It was different when Droid's were only offered on VZW's network, but, now that Samsung has slung their wares on every network damn near in the world, all bets are off and not all those same arguments hold water.

I called Verizon. Asked for what I needed to take my device to USCellular. I was told that I simply needed to take it to them and allow them to flash their software on my device. I mentioned the encryption on the bootloader would render this impossible and the device bricked and I needed the encryption removed before I could do as they say and was told "NO"

This, is the FCC Block C Regulation violation. The same Regulations VZW took to court and LOST trying to get removed.

They blatantly disregard these regulations. I think it's time they stopped. This is why I recommend everyone who owns a S3 and purchased it through Verizon complain to the FCC after making the call to Verizon asking for the encryption to be turned off so the device can be taken to a different carrier. When they're told "NO," that's the violation.

Furthermore, from a personal standpoint, if you don't like it, you don't believe in it, get the **** out of the way for those who are trying to do something about it. Playing devils advocate does nothing to help the situation. We're not bending the rules of block C to fit our desires. We're asking for permission for something Block C says we can do. We're being told no. How much clearer does it need to be?

congratulations on completely wasting your time and arguing with me about something im not even trying to say

if you want to fight them to get YOUR phone unlocked to take to a different network...go ahead be my guest...according to Block C they can't stop you...and if they try then you have a case...

my point is simply that they don't have to unlock everyone's phones...and that is the stance they are going to always take...

you really wasted your time with your post...you should learn to read mine better

you make the point about how youre

asking for permission for something Block C says we can do.

but thats where the problem lies...NO PEOPLE ARE NOT...nobody wants to dump VZW's network...they just want their phone unlocked so they can play with it more...you know this, i know this, and VZW knows this...

people keep citing regulations to support their argument but they are not actually trying to swap carriers! they just want to install a custom ROM...

sure, maybe you want to move to US Cellular...so go ahead and ask for the encryption...but joe schmoe who wants to install CM10 on his phone (which we can do anyway) but stay on VZW's network doesn't have a leg to stand on...

 

[diabolicalism]

Wtf? You think the point of this is to just help myself? Absolutely not! If the phone gets unlocked, its getting turned over to a ****ing dev- someone who knows what to do with it to figure out a way to break the encryption on YOURS!

 

[diabolicalism]

This post was rude and unnecessary. It can be deleted.

 

[Metfanant]

Wtf? You think the point of this is to just help myself? Absolutely not! If the phone gets unlocked, its getting turned over to a ****ing dev- someone who knows what to do with it to figure out a way to break the encryption on YOURS!

so you just admitted to twisting the Block C regulations to fit your own personal needs...


BAM!!

/thread
/discussion
/argument

 

[diabolicalism]

so you just admitted to twisting the Block C regulations to fit your own personal needs...


BAM!!

/thread
/discussion
/argument

end thread? hahaha.. right. Just because you say so?

You're stretching now. I think it's amusing. I enjoy watching you squirm almost as much as I'll enjoy watching VZW do it.

Can't argue the logic so you attempt to argue the reasoning. My reasoning doesn't matter. It's my device. I'll do with it as I please. I can only assume this will be the same idiotology (I just invented that word for you) used by VZW and their attorneys. It won't hold water with them and it sure as **** doesn't hold water for you.

You can stfu now.

In the movie Ronin, Robert DeNiro's character Sam says, "You're either part of the solution, part of the problem or you're just part of the landscape." Let me ask you, Metfanant, which one are you?

 

[diabolicalism]

I'll tell you what I'll do- just for you. *IF* it happens, I'll activate it on uscc's network, then turn it over to a dev. Will that make you feel better, align all the stars in your universe and set everything right in your world?