Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
So then, the notion of conscientious objector is not a valid one?
-
After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.
Anyone boycotting the TSA scanners tomorrow?
- Thread starter A.Nonymous
- Start date
- Status
So then, the notion of conscientious objector is not a valid one?
To ensure clarity, see also this post - http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/224020-anyone-boycotting-tsa-scanners-tomorrow-7.html#post1966037
Central to your question is due process.
The position of conscientious objector is defined (it isn't a casual term) and law dictates process for recognition as such. Following that process, if one is still dissatisfied, then one can engage in civil disobedience to the point of imprisonment.
All following due process made possible by the system that's been fought for - and respecting due process is a way to respect those that made it possible.
Many conscientious objectors end up serving in non-combative roles - but they serve. Some are excused from service. Some are imprisoned for their beliefs. All valid.
byteware's pointing out that without probable cause, due process is violated at airports every day.
The violation is performed with travelers under either duress or ignorance who don't insist on being treated with due process.
People are accepting that TSA procedures ARE due process. In the case of the 4th - not so much.
From this point of view, if all else fails and law somehow supports the TSA (and I don't believe it does, but IANAL), then the act of civil disobedience based on the conviction that the law is invalid, immoral and insane, i.e., it violates the constitution, becomes an act of very high patriotism.
tommy_ed
Android Expert
this whole TSA scanner thing has gotten me pretty angry with our gvt./people... the other day I wrote a song about it, figured i would share:
(I put "hide" tags so it wouldn't take up too much room)
im going to the studio on thursday and friday so I should have some music to go with this by the end of next week if anyone is interested in hearing it.
(I put "hide" tags so it wouldn't take up too much room)
If we run away from this fight, and let them take away our rights,
If we run away from this fight, who's gonna hold em back next time?
and are we gonna sit here waiting,
for them to cross the line next time?
Chorus
If we give them all away, what did all those people die for?
If they'd known it'd turn out this way, would it have been a cause worth dying for?
Listen to your TV screen, it's gonna tell ya what ya wanna hear, yea
All the work's behind the scenes, They'll try to instill us with fear, yea
Are we gonna sit here waitin,
for them to cross the line next time?
Chorus
If we give them all away, what did all those people die for?
If they'd known it'd turn out this way, would it have been a cause worth dying for?
When did we become so distant?
When did we become so apathetic?
Why don't we just stop listen?
And maybe do something about it
And we could all make it change, if we could all just stick together
It doesn't have to be this way, we shouldn't let them have all of this control
Bring the power back to the people, before our chance is gone
Chorus
If we give all our rights away
What did all those people die for?
If they knew it'd turn out this way
would it have been a cause they would die for?
would it have been a cause you would die for?
nothing these days is worth dying for..
If we run away from this fight, who's gonna hold em back next time?
and are we gonna sit here waiting,
for them to cross the line next time?
Chorus
If we give them all away, what did all those people die for?
If they'd known it'd turn out this way, would it have been a cause worth dying for?
Listen to your TV screen, it's gonna tell ya what ya wanna hear, yea
All the work's behind the scenes, They'll try to instill us with fear, yea
Are we gonna sit here waitin,
for them to cross the line next time?
Chorus
If we give them all away, what did all those people die for?
If they'd known it'd turn out this way, would it have been a cause worth dying for?
When did we become so distant?
When did we become so apathetic?
Why don't we just stop listen?
And maybe do something about it
And we could all make it change, if we could all just stick together
It doesn't have to be this way, we shouldn't let them have all of this control
Bring the power back to the people, before our chance is gone
Chorus
If we give all our rights away
What did all those people die for?
If they knew it'd turn out this way
would it have been a cause they would die for?
would it have been a cause you would die for?
nothing these days is worth dying for..
im going to the studio on thursday and friday so I should have some music to go with this by the end of next week if anyone is interested in hearing it.
Unless Texas or Alaska were broken up recently or Puerto Rico was added to the union, how do you come about with 57 states?
TS
snopes.com: Barack Obama and 57 States
Naturally, I, for one, refudiate, as you do, that there are 57 union states, that is, 50 states of the union, and I mean address, because I live in one of them.
So it all just depends on how you want to peel the great pototoe that is American political quotes.
I don't see how you correlate being a conscientious objector with disrespecting WHY a soldier sacrificed their life for this country.
Sure conscientious objectors won't do so themselves, but that doesn't mean that they don't respect that others do.
An interesting thought occurred to me while I was thinking about this post...
Pacifists can be pacifists because others aren't.
Pacifism is such a rich and overloaded term.
I'd say that pacifists that simply reject war are honorable - provided they're not dupes (e.g., Chamberlain).
Pacifists that reject warriors are divorced from reality and another name should be found for them.
The ultimate end goal of every war and for every oppressed people is, after all, pacifism.
Pacifists can be pacifists because others aren't - very, very true.
I'd offer that soldiers exist because evil exists where pacifism does not. When evil ultimately acts, soldiers must respond.
I know of no other way.
I'd say that pacifists that simply reject war are honorable - provided they're not dupes (e.g., Chamberlain).
Pacifists that reject warriors are divorced from reality and another name should be found for them.
The ultimate end goal of every war and for every oppressed people is, after all, pacifism.
Pacifists can be pacifists because others aren't - very, very true.
I'd offer that soldiers exist because evil exists where pacifism does not. When evil ultimately acts, soldiers must respond.
I know of no other way.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Lots of federal laws prevent you from putting claymore mines on your property. Only an abject fool would consider it and if you did, you would have another freedom taken away: the right to freely leave the mental institution.
The phone guy, UPS, Power Company man, neighbor
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
So, let us suppose you are on my property. You are acting wacky, I think you are a potential threat; I take your gun away from you, detain you, arrest you, and call the cops. What likely happens next?
Well, the cops arrive and question everyone. It is a volatile situation, so the cops are watching everyone. Perhaps I am cuffed for safety reasons; the cops safety, not mine.
What really happens next? Quite likely, you are hauled off my property and nothing happens to me. Perhaps you sue, but quite likely, your case is dismissed because John Law appreciates people defending their rights without the need for violence. And all that paperwork and mess to clean up.
I win because I have transcripts of your Android Forum posts that clearly indicate an angry bird. Wow, I tied the thread to Android.
Anyway, I would not arrest you or call the cops right out of the box because I be a rational little fella. I would ask you to leave, before I do anything. That is for my protection, too.
There is a famous case that applies: I Asked Him To Leave V. The Fool Got What He Asked For.
Bob Maxey
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
So is carrying cash a potential threat now too? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbbgtuAKtg
There is no defending their actions. Anyone who does doesn't deserve to live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbbgtuAKtg
There is no defending their actions. Anyone who does doesn't deserve to live.
How does this differ from how the cops would handle it if I was on public property, had a gun, you subdued me, detained me and called the cops?
So is carrying cash a potential threat now too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbbgtuAKtg
There is no defending their actions. Anyone who does doesn't deserve to live.
Actually, up until 2000, the government would just take the money. And you had to prove that it was legally obtained in order to get it back (a process that could take a number of years to complete).
Look up Civil Asset Forfeiture.
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
But seriously? $4,700? That isn't even a large amount of money.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
So is carrying cash a potential threat now too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbbgtuAKtg
There is no defending their actions. Anyone who does doesn't deserve to live.
Perhaps that is a tad strong? I agree with the sentiment. The TSA is out of control and it is time to take cases through the courts. Hoping that something bad involving a plane does not happen, and then we will long for these abusive days.
For the record, I find no law that limits how much cash you can carry. There are laws that require paperwork for a certain amount of cash carried out of the United States.
I will add a few comments.
First, I think if all airline CEOs got together and decided that the TSA was bad for business, about all they could do is cry and complain. Unless I am wrong, the TSA is put there by laws tied to new domestic terrorism laws and perhaps the Patriot Act. So the airlines hands are tied and until the laws are changed or ruled upon by the Supreme Court, we are stuck with a system that is sure to get worse.
If a case finds its way to the SC, there is no guarantee they will hear it, so if the laws are unconstitutional, they might never be changed until we get a sensible SC. That is why we need to be worried about how liberal the SC becomes with each new judge.
And remember folks, once in an SC judge cannot be fired.
Secondly, I have to believe that most TSA people are generally good. But some of them likely have a God complex and it is their only way to feel important or tough is by bullying others. I have met a few rookie cops that once they strap on a six-shooter, they are the biggest bear in the woods and they want you to know it. Not too many, but I can see how someone can suddenly decide he or she is the Savior of the Universe and some people suffer because of the sudden attitude change.
Again, I prefaced my comments with "Unless I Am Wrong" so no arguing. Posters, kindly provide facts and no pissyness. Is that a word?
God Bless Us One And All.
Bob Maxey
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Do not know what the cops would do. I know what I would hopefully be smart enough to do, but I seldom have to stare down a crazy person, so I remain untested.
Bob Maxey
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
Would that be pissiness?
Anyways, I stand firm. Anyone who is willing to sacrifice their rights, for the appearance of security, and safty, doesn't deserve their life.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Nope, these days, five grand is not allot of money. Not sure what can be done if your cash is taken.
You see gang, this is why those people that think voting is a waste of time; those that think the government is bad and we are powerless to stop abuse; those that are too lazy to seriously consider and carefully vet those they elect; those lazy souls that have given up, need to be examined by a health care professional.
We are seeing concrete proof of the old adage I just made up and paraphrased: "We Get the Elected Officials We Deserve."
Is there anyone here concerned about the election of Supreme Court Judges? They are in it for life and since only the congress can remove them by impeachment, a liberal congress might not want to remove a liberal SC judge.
Bob Maxey
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
No offence, (Moderators have the power of God and the ability to quash me like a bug and trample my "Freedom of Speech" (Insert a big, old, goofy smiley) but are you kidding?
I was poking fun at President Obama who claimed we now had 57 states.
Bob Maxey (Groveling For Moderator Acceptance)
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Would that be pissiness?
Anyways, I stand firm. Anyone who is willing to sacrifice their rights, for the appearance of security, and safty, doesn't deserve their life.
I would generally agree with that. Too many people, however, assert rights that do not exist so the public becomes confused. Some people also violate the law with the blessing of their superiors and that is also bad. I
M
Member243850
Guest
Wow...
I never heard about this until I saw this in the forums right now...
Damn...
Very sad indeed. This is a violation of human rights. Why do this?
I understand they need to check for terrorists with bombs on planes and such but
actually touching people. That's not cool at all... so let me understand this 100%... you either get to be seen semi naked on their crazy x-ray camera's or get touched by some pervert to board your specific plane... am I correct?
Wow... this is not cool at all...
What the hell happened to freedom of movement without being harassed? I don't like this at all...
Freedom of movement under United States law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom of movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sexual harassment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just plain crazy.
I never heard about this until I saw this in the forums right now...
Damn...
Very sad indeed. This is a violation of human rights. Why do this?
I understand they need to check for terrorists with bombs on planes and such but
actually touching people. That's not cool at all... so let me understand this 100%... you either get to be seen semi naked on their crazy x-ray camera's or get touched by some pervert to board your specific plane... am I correct?
Wow... this is not cool at all...
What the hell happened to freedom of movement without being harassed? I don't like this at all...
Freedom of movement under United States law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom of movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sexual harassment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just plain crazy.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
If I call the cops, there is your probable cause and they can search you. They are arriving at the scene of a potential crime and you get searched. AS DO I, most likely. If I make a complaint and you do not leave, well, that is why you might be in traction.
But, and it is a BIG BUTTTTT, I would simply ask you to leave before calling John Law. If you leave and come back or refuse to leave after I tell you to do so, that makes for a very miserable day.
I do not advocate violence, but sometimes, I get a hankering for it.
Merry Christmas One and All!
Bob Maxey
D
Dark Jedi
Guest
Depends on the person you ask. Take me for instance. I would think 4grand to be a lot of money. Compared to someone wealthy would consider that amount to be pocket change.
D
Dark Jedi
Guest
If you was at a friends house and lets say you have an argument. The owners ask you toleave and you refuse. They call the cops and when they arrive and find out you was asked to leave but you refused. The officer will ask you why you didn't leave. After you give an answer the officer ask you to leave. Then when you refuse he will arrest you for trespassing and search youbefore taking you to jail. You was there as a guest and your time to leave is up to the homeowners and not you the guest. By refusing to leave you are creating a hostile environment and the homeowners might feel threaten by your actions.
So yes by saying you refuse to leave you give probable cause for a search as you are being arreasted and heading to jail.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Yes indeed.
I am sick and tired of some people simply arguing this issue of what rights a property owner has or does not have because they have a need to complain. At least you get it, Oh Dark One.
Are probable cause laws applicable here? I thought PC laws were to prevent cops from pulling you over or searching you for no good reason. Seems to me, refusing an officer
An unfortunate consequence of complaining about posters or posting in general.
Exactly what Da Rules forbid.
Last warning - infractions are next accompanied with locked threads wherever that happens.
Take issue with specific posts, and take them up with the author - that's ok.
Further issue with posting in general, or testing Da Rules - and consequences follow.
Exactly what Da Rules forbid.
Last warning - infractions are next accompanied with locked threads wherever that happens.
Take issue with specific posts, and take them up with the author - that's ok.
Further issue with posting in general, or testing Da Rules - and consequences follow.
- Status