Root Cyanogenmod questions

[stephentw]

I've got a few quesitons regarding installing cyanogen that I can't find answers to so I hope someone doesn't mind helping me.

1. I have the official HTC 2.3 gingerbread so I read on the guide here all I can do is use revolutionary to get s-off. I also read s-off is not recommend unless you absolutely need it and normally isn't required for cyanogen install so can I turn s-on after I'm done? Or If not does the SU app protect me from things taking advantage of s-off?

2. This might be a dumb question but do I need root access after too? I don't want to install any "root" apps as such, I purely want this rom due to space issues with the standard HTC rom and I don't use sense anyway. Wasn't sure if leaving it compromises the phone in any way. Or does the Superuser app provide enough security as long as I don't grant SU always allow access to things that don't require SU?

3. I read about removing apk I don't use/need from the rom zip before installing. Can I do this with the google apps zip too I presume? Is there a list of safe to remove apps? I saw one on the cyanogen wiki but it looks a little out of date. Trying to keep the install as small as possible. I can reinstall these anyway can't I?

4. I'm going through this because the HTC 2.3 update has basically rendered the phone useless. It runs out of space constantly. I've not got a great deal installed but I only have around 14-19mb free and I'm sick of low space messages. The only apps I have which don't move to SD are flash and maps, or at least they're the big ones. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how much space I'd have after cyanogen, standard google apps and flash installed? Not really keen on moving cache's to SD card etc and was hoping the standard release will give me enough space. The rest of my apps install on SD anyway.

5. Sort of related to the above. To save space can maps be safely moved to SD without messing with ext partitions etc? I know flash apparently shouldn't move.

Sorry for the long winded questions, hope someone doesn't mind helping me

 

[SUroot]

1. I have the official HTC 2.3 gingerbread so I read on the guide here all I can do is use revolutionary to get s-off. I also read s-off is not recommend unless you absolutely need it and normally isn't required for cyanogen install so can I turn s-on after I'm done? Or If not does the SU app protect me from things taking advantage of s-off?

Its not that its not recommended. Its that we didnt want people doing it just for the sake of it, when they dont know what it means... Now you actually have no choice as you have to s-off to flash recovery, so you can flash roms.

You cant turn s-off back to on without taking the device completely back to stock.

The SU app doesnt protect you against anything. SU grants apps that ask for root access or not. Its simply a gatekeeper. What exactly do you think will be "Taking advantage" of s-off?

2. This might be a dumb question but do I need root access after too? I don't want to install any "root" apps as such, I purely want this rom due to space issues with the standard HTC rom and I don't use sense anyway. Wasn't sure if leaving it compromises the phone in any way. Or does the Superuser app provide enough security as long as I don't grant SU always allow access to things that don't require SU?

You need recovery to flash CM. CM has root access anyway, so you dont need to do revolutionary>Recovery>Root zip as that just roots your existing rom, which you wont be keeping. Flashing CM in itself will not solve your memory issues. Have you read the root memory FAQ here yet? If not, you should.

If something doesnt need root access, there is nothing to protect against, surely? You seem quite scared about root access. Come on, tell us whats wrong.

3. I read about removing apk I don't use/need from the rom zip before installing. Can I do this with the google apps zip too I presume? Is there a list of safe to remove apps? I saw one on the cyanogen wiki but it looks a little out of date. Trying to keep the install as small as possible. I can reinstall these anyway can't I?

Yes but what google apps dont you need? If you want a stripped out rom, you should probably try mine its teh smallest and cleanest there is.

4. I'm going through this because the HTC 2.3 update has basically rendered the phone useless. It runs out of space constantly. I've not got a great deal installed but I only have around 14-19mb free and I'm sick of low space messages. The only apps I have which don't move to SD are flash and maps, or at least they're the big ones. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how much space I'd have after cyanogen, standard google apps and flash installed? Not really keen on moving cache's to SD card etc and was hoping the standard release will give me enough space. The rest of my apps install on SD anyway.

No more space. You have to then decide on a method for saving space. Again, see our root memory faq. Also be aware, flashing google apps goes to /system/app which is NOT covered in your "Internal Storage" figures so removing stuff from the ROM or google apps will NOT save you space either. Only /data is "Internal Storage". Google maps and flash are both /system/apps by the way, so these dont move to sd and if they did, you wouldnt save any space as they are part of the rom.

5. Sort of related to the above. To save space can maps be safely moved to SD without messing with ext partitions etc? I know flash apparently shouldn't move.

I think what you would want to do is consider using an alpharev hboot as per the root memory faq. This will change the internal partitions to use wasted /system space (C is smaller than sense roms) and re-use it for /data.

No offence, but you clearly have some gaps in your knowledge so I suggest reading the Root memory FAQ AND the Rooting FAQ, both linked in our "All about rooting" sticky thread.

Hope this helps. Anything you dont understand, please ask, we like to help.

Happy hunting and good luck

 

[stephentw]

Its not that its not recommended. Its that we didnt want people doing it just for the sake of it, when they dont know what it means... Now you actually have no choice as you have to s-off to flash recovery, so you can flash roms.

You cant turn s-off back to on without taking the device completely back to stock.

The SU app doesnt protect you against anything. SU grants apps that ask for root access or not. Its simply a gatekeeper. What exactly do you think will be "Taking advantage" of s-off?

I don't know that anything will, I'm just wary of all the warnings everyone splashes all over their guides saying that it removes all security on certain areas of the phone permanently so I'm trying to understand if thats a bad thing before just going right in and doing it without knowing what I'm getting into. Regarding the SU app, it does ask when something requests permission though doesn't it? So it is some safeguard surely, as long as I'm not just blindly saying allow always?

You need recovery to flash CM. CM has root access anyway, so you dont need to do revolutionary>Recovery>Root zip as that just roots your existing rom, which you wont be keeping. Flashing CM in itself will not solve your memory issues. Have you read the root memory FAQ here yet? If not, you should.

If something doesnt need root access, there is nothing to protect against, surely? You seem quite scared about root access. Come on, tell us whats wrong.

Again it's just that as above there always seems to be a lot of warnings about doing these things so I'm just being cautious, seems like a lot of people just jump in and I didn't want to do that. I'll read the memory FAQ. I thought CM was smaller than the standard HTC 2.3.3 rom? As it won't have any of the HTC bloat that I never use like sense and footprints etc hence it would free up that space? Before I upgraded to HTC 2.3.3 I never had a problem with space and had the same things installed as I do now so I thought getting rid of it would again free up space. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Yes but what google apps dont you need? If you want a stripped out rom, you should probably try mine its teh smallest and cleanest there is.

I don't use many of the google apps as it is, calendar/contact sync, maps and market I think.

No more space. You have to then decide on a method for saving space. Again, see our root memory faq. Also be aware, flashing google apps goes to /system/app which is NOT covered in your "Internal Storage" figures so removing stuff from the ROM or google apps will NOT save you space either. Only /data is "Internal Storage". Google maps and flash are both /system/apps by the way, so these dont move to sd and if they did, you wouldnt save any space as they are part of the rom.

So does flashing CM not alter the sizes of these areas, for example if these apps all go into /system/app and theres less in there than in the HTC rom does that not free up that space to become internal storage for /data? Or are these stored in different partitions that won't change by simply flashing CM so no amount of removing things will help free internal memory? I'll read the memory FAQ to see if that helps.

I think what you would want to do is consider using an alpharev hboot as per the root memory faq. This will change the internal partitions to use wasted /system space (C is smaller than sense roms) and re-use it for /data.

Ahh right yes this sounds more like it. Is this a step I'd take after the whole revolutionary/s-off/clockworkmod/amonra part? As I presume that needs to happen before I flash CM?

No offence, but you clearly have some gaps in your knowledge so I suggest reading the Root memory FAQ AND the Rooting FAQ, both linked in our "All about rooting" sticky thread.

Hope this helps. Anything you dont understand, please ask, we like to help.

Happy hunting and good luck

Thankyou very much so far. Yeah I know I have some gaps so no offence taken, thats why I wanted to check everything out because I want to understand what I'm doing beforehand, like I said it seems like a lot of people just jump in head first and don't really know what they're doing and I don't want to do that.

 

[Hadron]

I don't know that anything will, I'm just wary of all the warnings everyone splashes all over their guides saying that it removes all security on certain areas of the phone permanently so I'm trying to understand if thats a bad thing before just going right in and doing it without knowing what I'm getting into. Regarding the SU app, it does ask when something requests permission though doesn't it? So it is some safeguard surely, as long as I'm not just blindly saying allow always?

It's not a bad thing unless you misuse it. S-Off allows you to foul up the phone in ways that you'd have to work harder to do without it, e.g. it's easier to delete vital system apps. But in normal use there's no extra risk.

SU asks whether you want to give an app superuser permissions. You can do this permanently, or once per usage, and you can use the SU app to undo an allocation of permission.

I thought CM was smaller than the standard HTC 2.3.3 rom? As it won't have any of the HTC bloat that I never use like sense and footprints etc hence it would free up that space? Before I upgraded to HTC 2.3.3 I never had a problem with space and had the same things installed as I do now so I thought getting rid of it would again free up space. Am I wrong in thinking this?

CM is smaller, but the HTC bloatware lives in one storage partition (/system), while user apps live in another (/data). So a smaller ROM doesn't automatically give you more user space: CM uses less of the /system partition, but that just means there is more empty space in /system, and doesn't in itself make /data larger. However, even system apps' data live in /data, so there may be some gain from not having them.

So does flashing CM not alter the sizes of these areas, for example if these apps all go into /system/app and theres less in there than in the HTC rom does that not free up that space to become internal storage for /data? Or are these stored in different partitions that won't change by simply flashing CM so no amount of removing things will help free internal memory? I'll read the memory FAQ to see if that helps.

Yes, read the FAQ. But you were right the second time, it's all in different partitions.

The "custom hboot" SUroot talks about allows you to resize the partitions, shrinking /system and giving the extra space to /data. That is a big help, but it's not automatic, you have to do apply it yourself. And this does require S-Off, so that's a plus side to having it.

As SUroot says, we don't discourage people from going S-Off, just from doing it without knowing what it is and why they want it. If you want to resize the partitions, then that's a reason for having it

Ahh right yes this sounds more like it. Is this a step I'd take after the whole revolutionary/s-off/clockworkmod/amonra part? As I presume that needs to happen before I flash CM?

Doesn't have to happen before. In fact I'd recommend doing CM first, check it's OK, then do the hboot change. That way you are only changing one thing at a time, and if something goes wrong you can just restore to your old ROM using your nandroid backup (you will take a nandroid before flashing a different ROM). If you change to a smaller hboot first, you can't restore the nandroid without flashing a larger hboot back (as the /system partition will be too small for your old ROM).

So I'd actually suggest trying CM, seeing whether you like it, get it set up, then change the hboot to get more storage.

 

[stephentw]

It's not a bad thing unless you misuse it. S-Off allows you to foul up the phone in ways that you'd have to work harder to do without it, e.g. it's easier to delete vital system apps. But in normal use there's no extra risk.

Thanks I think I understand S-off a bit better now.

SU asks whether you want to give an app superuser permissions. You can do this permanently, or once per usage, and you can use the SU app to undo an allocation of permission.

Ok I understand that now, so that would alert for example a malicious app trying to gain higher priviledges than it needs. Could an app dabble in the usually secured partitions that security has been removed with s-off somehow? Or would SU be required for an app to attempt this anyway hence the SU app would alert to that sort of thing? Just trying to get into my head the way these things work and how these different parts (s-off/SU/root etc) all relate to each other.

CM is smaller, but the HTC bloatware lives in one storage partition (/system), while user apps live in another (/data). So a smaller ROM doesn't automatically give you more user space: CM uses less of the /system partition, but that just means there is more empty space in /system, and doesn't in itself make /data larger. However, even system apps' data live in /data, so there may be some gain from not having them.

Right got it. I've read the memory FAQ now too so thats helpful to know.

The "custom hboot" SUroot talks about allows you to resize the partitions, shrinking /system and giving the extra space to /data. That is a big help, but it's not automatic, you have to do apply it yourself. And this does require S-Off, so that's a plus side to having it.

Doesn't have to happen before. In fact I'd recommend doing CM first, check it's OK, then do the hboot change. That way you are only changing one thing at a time, and if something goes wrong you can just restore to your old ROM using your nandroid backup (you will take a nandroid before flashing a different ROM). If you change to a smaller hboot first, you can't restore the nandroid without flashing a larger hboot back (as the /system partition will be too small for your old ROM).

So I'd actually suggest trying CM, seeing whether you like it, get it set up, then change the hboot to get more storage.

Right, this sounds like what I need then. According to alpharev.nl it will create partitions as 145,5,287 so I'd have over 100mb more in my /data. That should be enough for me I think. So I'm fine to flash CM then I can do the alpharev partitioning and I don't need to re flash CM? Sounds good, so does this plan look ok:

1. Follow the guide: http://androidforums.com/desire-all...ry-windows-published-4th-november-2011-a.html

2. Stop before the rooting current rom part. Instead after I flash custom recovery, I then flash CM7 right?

3. Check CM7 is running ok and the phone still works (checking the obvious like phone calls, sms/mms, data connection, anything else to check?)

4. Repartition with alpharev.

5. Check everything is still working ok afterwards.

6. Install my apps onto my fresh repartitioned CM7.

7. Take a final full nandroid backup of my new setup incase anything goes wrong in the future.

Don't think I've missed anything but please tell me if I have. Also I have a few more questions (sorry).

I can't find out if a2SD+ is part of CM but I think by default it isn't so does this mean that I can still move apps to SD in the standard way as on HTC rom (apps > manage apps > select app > hit move to SD card)?

I've read the fastboot FAQ but I'm a bit hazy on the alpharev process. Can I simply download bravo_alphaspl-cm7r2.img from alpharev.nl and flash that in fastboot? alpharev.nl seems to suggest burning iso's to CD and booting from that or using a .zip to flash without a PC. Plus I have hboot 1.02 from HTC 2.3.3 so is this ok or does revolutionary bring it back to 0.93? Alpharev doesn't mention versions other than 0.93. Also according to the FAQ USB disconnects affect the process but it doesn't say whehter it's necessary to be connected to a PC or not or what is supposed to be running on the PC? I'm not sure I'm fully understanding that process.

Radio's. I think I have the latest one, do I need to worry about them or change to a different one?

Quick one, my vol - is slightly faulty. Am I ok getting into the places I need to be holding power and back? That works to show hboot info etc. vol - does work a bit so I can try it, it'll just be difficult using it.

Nandroid backups - I presume they save to SD (and my SD is stock so it's not very big). When I'm done I won't need to keep every backup from the process I doubt so once I'm up and running I'd like to keep a full backup of my fresh CM7 install and thats it really. How do I delete unnecessary ones? Just in windows or on the device? Where will I find them?

 

[Hadron]

I'd recommend taking a nandroid before you flash CM7.

Also, you will need to factory reset the phone before you can flash a new ROM - it won't boot if it has a Sense ROM's settings and CM7 software. Hence you want to back up everything you want to keep before flashing the ROM (user apps whose data you want to keep, phone books if not already backed up with Google, SMS, MMS, call logs if you care about these things). Some apps can back up their data to SD, but for copying user data between ROMs most people use special backup apps. Titanium Backup is the most used, but that requires root. For SMS and call logs a separate app is required - I generally recommend SMS Backup+ or MyBackup for these. MyBackup can do some app backups as well, but I use Ti for that. So if you want to use Ti you may need to root your current ROM anyway.

There's information about this in the rooting FAQ as well.

Of course if you are happy to just wipe the phone without backing stuff up (e.g. if phonebook is synced with Google and you don't care about the rest) then you can proceed to flash CM7 without rooting or doing anything else, but I'd still recommend taking a nandroid to be safe.

Changing HBOOT requires another nandroid. You cannot assume your ROM and data will be intact after the partition boundaries are moved, so you should nandroid before flashing the new hboot, then wipe the partitions using fastboot, then restore the nandroid. The alpharev website has this step by step.

Revolutionary has replaced your hboot. The stuff on alpharev about burning iso's is for using alpharev tool to S-Off, but you don't need that. So you can just flash hboot using fastboot. Do read and ask until you are absolutely certain you know what you are doing here, because it's not something you want to mess up. For that reason, check the md5 of the hboot img before flashing - you do not want to flash a corrupt file. Fastboot is a tool you set up on your computer (FAQs will tell you how to do this for Windows - I'm not a windows person myself), and fastboot commands are run from the computer with the phone connected by USB and in fastboot mode.

Power and back takes you straight to fastboot mode. That should be fine, as long as you can select any other modes you need.

Nandroids are saved to SD. If you have clockworkmod recovery they will be in clockworkmod/backup (I think Amon RA recovery puts them in a folder called "nandroid", but not certain). You can delete them using a file explorer from the phone, or connect to computer via usb, mount the SD card and treat it like a usb stick. I usually copy a few to my laptop as insurance.

CM7 doesn't come with a2sd+, though there are a couple of ways of adding it. You can move to SD as with the stock ROM, in fact you can do this whether you have a2sd+ or not.

Finally, the su app just gives apps permission to run as superuser. If you were S-On that still would not let it change the contents of the /system partition while the phone was running Android, but when S-Off that is sufficient. Anything critical should still need superuser to access it, so if an app you are not expecting to need root permissions asks for them you can just deny it (and then decide what to do with the app).

Good luck - there is a lot of stuff to take in in one go, so don't worry about asking questions!

 

[stephentw]

Thanks again. I think I'm getting there. I understand much better now which is what I wanted.

When you say I need to factory reset before I flash a rom do you mean from within my current rom (settings > SD and phone storage > factory data reset) or by another means?

Right so fastboot is run from a CMD prompt and is installed with the android sdk. So I connect the phone in fastboot mode and follow the 6 steps under the downloads table on the alpharev.nl site?

Do my 7 steps in the last post look right? Obviously part 4 involves the 6 steps on the alpharev site too.

 

[Hadron]

Apart from the bit about backing up your current data, which isn't in the list, then yes it looks fine.

The simplest way to factory reset is from recovery - just boot into recovery, full wipe/factory reset, then install the ROM. If you haven't taken a nandroid, do that before the wipe.

And you are right to want to be sure before doing this. Just for info, for me that list of modifications (root, ROM, S-Off, repartition internal storage) was spread over a period of several months.

 

[stephentw]

Apart from the bit about backing up your current data, which isn't in the list, then yes it looks fine.

The simplest way to factory reset is from recovery - just boot into recovery, full wipe/factory reset, then install the ROM. If you haven't taken a nandroid, do that before the wipe.

And you are right to want to be sure before doing this. Just for info, for me that list of modifications (root, ROM, S-Off, repartition internal storage) was spread over a period of several months.

Hahah brilliant, I do like to set myself a challenge! I wondered why my head hurt trying to take all this in.

Oh and don't worry I know about the nandroid backups I just didn't explicitly name them in the steps.

So in other news, I think I have fastboot working on the PC, I just booted the device into fastboot, connected USB, drivers installed (already had htc drivers on), ran "fastboot devices" from a CMD prompt and it showed up a device. Do I take that as a sucess?

Do I need to worry about the ADB stuff? From what I've read so far I don't need to use that for what I'm doing, is that right?

 

[SUroot]

adb and fastboot are very similar in that they are command line tools however they are actually very different.

You dont need adb for anything you have mentioned in this thread.

Fastboot devices finding your device is indeed a sign of success

 

[stephentw]

Cool, I think I have all the drivers installed now, just got the unrevoked modified USB driver on too and tested booting to hboot on device and connecting usb. Driver installed ok. I presume another success.

I'm not PVT4 so I get the choice of CWM or amonra. Most people seem to use CWM so I think I'll go with that. Is there any reason I should choose amonra over CWM?

One other thing too on the alpharev.nl site I have a question about steps
4) 'fastboot reboot-bootloader'
5) 'fastboot erase cache'
Are these just fastboot commands to run on the PC CMD prompt? Or are they things that are run on the phone when it's in fastboot mode? I think they're commands but want to be certain.

 

[Hadron]

Any command starting "fastboot" is run on the computer.

 

[stephentw]

I'm happy to report that I'm all up and running. And happy so far. Not had much time to test but so far so good.

Thanks very much hadron and suroot for being patient and helping me so much and sorry for all the questions

 

[SUroot]

No probs. We prefer questions before doing something than helping someone recover from something they did without fully understanding. If more people were like you, we would have an easier time on this forum

 

[Hadron]

Agree absolutely

 

[stephentw]

Actually a couple more questions. Apart from the obvious size restrictions on the system partition what's the difference between putting an app in system or data. For example if I decide to change launchers and remove adw I'm ok to put the new launcher apk in system aren't I? And can I put apks in the zip before I flash it?

Also I want to clear all my user data and make a backup of just the fresh flashed rom plus my ui/settings tweaks and apps so I can easily restore to a clean rom without having outdated call logs, texts etc. What's the easiest way to do that?

 

[SUroot]

Yes to all your questions.

Set up Rom how you like it then delete your call logs, texts etc...

Personally I use sms backup+ to backup my call logs and messages to gmail so everything is there now

 

[stephentw]

So is there no difference between an app being in system or data? I have about 13mb free in system. Am I ok to fill that up?

 

[Hadron]

An app that works in data will also work in system. It doesn't always work the other way round.

If you move an app to system and get an update, the update will go to data. You can move it to system, but it'll be a bore with an app that's frequently updated.