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Ethics and Bandwidth Usage

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mrk said:
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Ah. So if the free market requires that you agree to honor a contract you signed, that means that it forces others to make less money than you?
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But look what happen to the current market, we had zero government regulation. Zero, by a government that was 100% free market. Bush himself said that he had to abandon free market principles to save the free market.

Everyone one of financial firms that created this messed screamed free market, until they took government bailout. Which is the paridox in the system. From 2000-2009, we had a president that preached free market and everyone in the economic sector screaming free market. Where did that get us. It got us to the point where the people that where screaming free market broke contracts and laws, and then lined up for a handout.

I am sorry, that is the truth, the free market ran for 8 years to the happiness of the people that preach free market. And they drove it into the ditch.

But back to my first question, who decides what is fraud and abuse? The people that get to decide that will create a system they can fraud and abuse.

Sorry free market can not work, the best we can have is an open market, but not free. Freedom even in personal concepts does not exist. You are not free. Either are markets.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.
 
But look what happen to the current market, we had zero government regulation. Zero, by a government that was 100% free market. Bush himself said that he had to abandon free market principles to save the free market.
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We definitely had government regulation. An incredible amount of it. A president and a varying portion of congress being nominally "free market" does not a free market make--especially not when this president and congress introduced and approved of things such as the PATRIOT Act, multiple bailouts, et c. Note, also, that I believe Bush to have been a giant idiot.

Everyone one of financial firms that created this messed screamed free market, until they took government bailout.
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Funny how that works, isn't it? Should have let them fail. Hard.

Which is the paridox in the system. From 2000-2009, we had a president that preached free market and everyone in the economic sector screaming free market. Where did that get us. It got us to the point where the people that where screaming free market broke contracts and laws, and then lined up for a handout.
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I wouldn't call that a paradox in the system. I would call that hypocrisy (separate from and unrelated to the actual system).

I am sorry, that is the truth, the free market ran for 8 years to the happiness of the people that preach free market. And they drove it into the ditch.
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There was no free market.

But back to my first question, who decides what is fraud and abuse? The people that get to decide that will create a system they can fraud and abuse.
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A reasonable government, which, sadly, is a prerequisite for a free market. Though an educated populace aware of its own power could definitely suffice.

Sorry free market can not work, the best we can have is an open market, but not free. Freedom even in personal concepts does not exist. You are not free. Either are markets.
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What do you define the difference between free and open to be? We may agree save for differences in terminology. In any case, I believe myself to be free. What evidence have you to the contrary?

We are going to have to agree to disagree.
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Likely. Know, additionally, that none of this is meant as a personal detriment to you--I appreciate everything which you have done (and continue to do) for this forum.

Lastly, @dirkbonn: I wish I could thank you twice--once for your post, and once for your sig :). Aye, and thrice for your service!
 
If you are paying for unlimited data, there is absolutely nothing unethical about using it. I don't even see how anyone can argue otherwise.

If there is not enough bandwidth to go around, then the carrier needs to upgrade the network. If there is not enough bandwidth to go around, and the carrier keeps selling it, then it is the carrier who in unethical.
 
dirkbonn said:
My thought on "unlimited" bandwidth usage.

When I was in the Marine Corp, and this was back in the 60's and 70's, there was a sign at the entrance to the mess hall. It read,"Take all you want, but eat all you take!"

This philosophy applies nicely to the "unlimited" bandwidth program. If everyone uses all the bandwidth you need, some will use more than others obviously, but the program will work. But if some, in an attempt to get "their moneys worth" just download stuff 24/7, will just drive up costs and eventually these costs will be passed onto the all consumers in the form of raised prices. And who do you think will be complaining the loudest when these prices go up? Me, whose a little older and has made a pretty good living and whether the price of something is $10 or $20, it doesn't matter? No, cuz I can afford it. Nope, it'll be the younger people who can't afford it but were concerned about getting "their moneys worth" when the price was less.

I'm sure you all been to an "All you can eat" buffet at one time or another. You've also seen people waste food. Like taking a big bowl of mashed potatoes, and only taking one bite of it and throwing the rest away. If this kind of thing happens enough, it eats into the restaurants profit margin and they either raise prices or go out of business. Again, if the food was good, I'll still go there because whether the cost of the meal was $9.95 or $12.95 I can afford it. But possibly the person who wanted to "get his moneys worth" at $9.95 can't afford $12.95. This same example could easily mirror the "unlimited bandwidth" programs.

I remember about 6 months ago or so, seeing an article in a computer magazine the said cable companies (like comcast & Time Warner) did some studies and found out that something like 5% of the customers used 80% of the "used bandwidth". (I'm guessing at these figures because I just don't remember exactly but you see my point) I remember reading that they were toying with the idea of charging these "high bandwidth usage" customers more, because as you know, they know who's using what and how much.

So I guess my point is, when it comes to "unlimited bandwidth", take all you want but use all you take. Don't download a movie or something and then delete it just so you can feel you're "getting your moneys worth." You'll eventually just drive up the price for everybody, including yourself.

Again, just my take on this "unlimited" bandwidth usage.

I remain: patiently/impatiently waiting for the release of the HTC EVO 4G!
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Good post. In doing so you also provide how economics work. If people download non-stop what's so wrong in that? The carrier will a.) raise prices to all under that "data plan" "all-you-can-eat-menu" or b.) split up the markets and create new plans.

if prices go up and people pay it...great, no worries. If enough people are disgusted by it they go to a competitor and eventually the business dies. The solution is to change your business model to adapt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've known for a while that all the big carriers have had caps on unlimited data packages. 99% of people will never touch that limit in a month. 5GB over 3g would take what....5,000 minutes of straight downloading. You get more talk time then that :P. I'm fine with a cap. Yeah it's a little weird to call it unlimited when it's limited (or their term "caped"), but I'll never reach it. I'm sure you can reach an agreement if you really want to use more then that. It's a "take all you want but eat what you take" forced onto you if you take too much. If you want to take more you can leave the company or pay up.

The thread is getting ridiculous. RiverOfIce is really just starting shit over nothing. no wonder he's on probation
 
I'm sorry RiverOfIce, and i mean this in the nicest possible way, you really need to stop posting. Almost everything you have said in this thread is misinformation.

Sprint has said themselves that the "unlimited data" in the phone plans are truly unlimited. I myself have gone over, and sometimes double 5gb/month. However, data plans for aircards and wireless hotspots are limited.

As far as your theory on a free market, you are grossly over simplifying it. A free market REQUIRES government intervention to uphold contracts and maintain the competitiveness of the market. We have not seen a free market in the US for well over 100 years. Read up on Wikipedia on Keynesian Economics (what we have today) vs Austrian Economics (true free economy).
 
Bales said:
However, data plans for aircards and wireless hotspots are limited.
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So if I were to replace my cable modem with an Overdrive wireless hotspot, I would be capped at 5gb per month? For $60 a month, that's insane. I would go over that just watching tv shows on hulu.
 
Sprint's plans clearly point out that "unlimited" actually means up to 5GB. If they haven't enforced it, that's a different issue and not because there is not data cap. If the speed limit's 55mph, just because they don't pull everyone over does not mean there's no speed limit. Ever try going to defend a ticket and saying it's not fair because you were the only one that got caught?

Also just to put some real info to the food AYCE/buffet analogies. I used to be very close to someone who ran a buffet who constantly worried about people eating too much and too many people wasting food. I'm not a food/beverage/restaurant consultant, but I told him my experienced business consultant perspective quickly and easily pointed out that 1) statistically there are not that many people who can actually eat you into not being profitable and 2) the best way to control both over-consumption and waste is to make the size of the plates large enough to hold a decent portion size but small enough to ensure that most people will finish all or a significant portion of what's there.

He made the change to 9" plates rather than the standard 11-13" found in restaurants and buffets. The result was his profitability bumped up quite a bit. He found that as long as he kept the food quality high and the buffet line fresh and hot, people tended to go back only when they wanted more. Even if they filled a plate and didn't finish, it was a smaller plate with less waste. And some people simply didn't go back and load up as much (ironic that he found that many people were too lazy or felt guilty going back for a 3+ servings that often resulted in the most waste).

Consumer consumption of data or wireless and all other data providers will likely be not that much different. There will be some that just can devour more than the average. But for most of us, we just want the best/fastest/most reliable way to conveniently access what we want right then, get it, and go. I don't think they enforce caps now because not enough people exceed them and with high enough amounts.

That may change as they're forced to deal with more people consuming more, but I believe before they get into enforcing more we will see far more true unlimited plans introduced by all carriers. I'm betting those plans will be more expensive to the normal consumer though, not the data-hogs. Because just like the buffet my friend owns that makes the most out of the people who consume the least, so will the wireless carriers.

I just laud Sprint for not leading the charge because it will make it tough for others to really gouge when they're ready if Sprint's still chugging along with an established, low, AYCE data plans and user experience.
 
I found this in the terms, it says NOTHING about phone plans:

Data Usage Limitation (Mobile Broadband Cards, USB Modems, Embedded Modems and Phone-As-Modem):The amount of data transmitted over our network is measured in kilobytes (KB), megabytes (MB) or gigabytes (GB). Sprint reserves the right to limit throughput speeds or amount of data transferred; and to deny, terminate, modify, disconnect or suspend service if usage either exceeds (a.) 5GB/month in total, unless specified otherwise or (b.) 300MB/month while off-network roaming. 1024KB equal 1MB. 1024MB equal 1GB.
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Bales said:
I'm sorry RiverOfIce, and i mean this in the nicest possible way, you really need to stop posting. Almost everything you have said in this thread is misinformation.

Sprint has said themselves that the "unlimited data" in the phone plans are truly unlimited. I myself have gone over, and sometimes double 5gb/month. However, data plans for aircards and wireless hotspots are limited.
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You first.


https://manage.sprintpcs.com/output/en_US/manage/MyPhoneandPlan/ChangePlans/popLegalTermsPrivacy.htm
your contract with sprint said:
Data Usage Limitation (Mobile Broadband Cards, USB Modems, Imbedded Modems and Phone-As-Modem): The amount of data transmitted over our network is measured in kilobytes (KB), megabytes (MB) or gigabytes (GB). Sprint reserves the right to limit throughput speeds or amount of data transferred; and to deny, terminate, modify, disconnect or suspend service if usage either exceeds (a.) 5GB/month in total, unless specified otherwise or (b.) 300MB/month while off-network roaming. 1024 KB equal 1 MB. 1024 MB equal 1 GB.
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You may want to ignore it, but it is there in black and white. This is from the contract that YOU signed and by your free market principles have to follow. You scream the government must enforce contracts that you are welling to break. Which is the paradox I have been pointing out. People that scream free market just want to rig the system to better themselves.

Once again, mobile broadband cards are pci, pci mini and air cards. Usb modems are usb doggles. Imbedded modems is the imbedded modem on your phone. And phone as modem is tethering.

It is in black in white in your contract. I am sorry you can not understand that. But to sit here and say that the government should enforce contracts that you do not understand, is just funny.
 
Bales said:
I found this in the terms, it says NOTHING about phone plans:
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It is the imbedded modem. That is the offical term of your cellphone. It is called an imbedded modem. Sorry but it is true.

I have proved myside. But I can not prove a negative. I can not prove it does not not exist.

So prove to me that you are correct. Show me where it says data limitation for imbedded modem/cell phone is unlimited. Please I give you a link, you have to reference your claim.
 
I think ROI is correct. But as I said before, all will be moot soon because I think "unlimited" is going to be defined as the carriers all begin to move to tiering for data. No chance that Sprint will be the only carrier not tiering for data. Sprint may do it more cheaply and give a better value to it's subscribers, but it would be an impossible sell to investors. I have never heard any carrier CEO not say that they don't plan to tier plans factoring in data use more heavily than phone use. I've heard ATT and VZW CEOs directly say they foresee tiering. Haven't heard Hesse's thoughts yet, but I cannot imagine he'll be able to emphatically say no tiering of any type will be done and that all "unlimited" plans are truly "unlimited" with no fine print. I'll believe that when I see it.

I don't want data charges to go up for any reason, but if that's where carriers are spending their resources then that's where they're going to try to maximize profit. That is how market-driven economics work.

I'm actually looking forward to how Sprint writes that sentence/section on Data Useage Limitation for those who get the Evo and it's true "unlimited" plan. That's where I was planning to look at how Sprint addresses hotspotting/tethering with Evo because it's also going to give me a strong indication on Sprint's position on the built-in "free" tethering/hotspot apps in Froyo.
 
RiverOfIce said:
It is the imbedded modem. That is the offical term of your cellphone. It is called an imbedded modem. Sorry but it is true.

I have proved myside. But I can not prove a negative. I can not prove it does not not exist.

So prove to me that you are correct. Show me where it says data limitation for imbedded modem/cell phone is unlimited. Please I give you a link, you have to reference your claim.
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I dont believe you are correct on this. I believe when they say imbedded modems they are referring to laptops with broadband built into the laptops. We call them "Gobis" at our store when we activate them. They fall to the same rules as broadband cards. As far as actual phone usage it IS unlimted. But you arent supposed to share that connection with a laptop (ie phone as a modem). So as long as you are strictly downloading to the phone it is unlimited per the contract. And for all purposes that you really can use your internet ON YOUR PHONE, you will never get near 5 gb a month so its really a non-point. If you are using your phone as a modem and downloaing torrents/watching movies, then yes it has a 5 GB cap.
 
aliveon2legs said:
So if I were to replace my cable modem with an Overdrive wireless hotspot, I would be capped at 5gb per month? For $60 a month, that's insane. I would go over that just watching tv shows on hulu.
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The overdrive 4G has no cap... the 3G might have a 5gb cap.

the $10/month on EVO.. removes all data cap on the phone.
root the phone and add in Wifi-tether application.... and get Hotspot for FREE!!!!
 
Rigmaster said:
Sprint's plans clearly point out that "unlimited" actually means up to 5GB...
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Just stop right there. No they don't, lol.

The plans say unlimited on all of the smartphone data. Teh only ones that point out a limit are the data cards.

On the Sprint website when I look at my data usage it clearly says the plan's amount is unlimited.
 
RiverOfIce said:
Once again, mobile broadband cards are pci, pci mini and air cards. Usb modems are usb doggles. Imbedded modems is the imbedded modem on your phone. And phone as modem is tethering.

It is in black in white in your contract. I am sorry you can not understand that. But to sit here and say that the government should enforce contracts that you do not understand, is just funny.
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Wrong. Imbedded modems are the modems that are built into the netbooks and laptops that some carriers sell.
 
dan330 said:
The overdrive 4G has no cap... the 3G might have a 5gb cap.

the $10/month on EVO.. removes all data cap on the phone.
root the phone and add in Wifi-tether application.... and get Hotspot for FREE!!!!
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That's kind of what I'm hoping for, but if it was my only source of internet, I would have to think they would notice. I don't know exactly how much data I use in a month, but I'm sure it's a pretty big number.
 
aliveon2legs said:
That's kind of what I'm hoping for, but if it was my only source of internet, I would have to think they would notice. I don't know exactly how much data I use in a month, but I'm sure it's a pretty big number.
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the $10/mounth removes all caps... so no issues..

currently there are a lot of us wifi-tether users on many of sprint phones.... and some have pushed thier usage wayyyyyyy above the 5gb cap (some every month)... with zero notice from sprint!!!! so with the added $10 charge.. I am sure you will be fine!
 
By the way, if you market a plan as unlimited, it has to actually be unlimited. Verizon used to market theirs as unlimited and had a 5 GB cap in the fine print, and this is what came of that:
Verizon settles lawsuit over 'unlimited' data plans - FierceBroadbandWireless

Ever since then, Verizon has no longer marketed their data plans as unlimited. They all clearly say they have a 5 GB limit right on the plan listed on the website, and also on the account usage page.

Sprint's data plans say unlimited on the website and also on the account usage page. In addition to that, I have read many reports of peolpe going over the 5 GB (and even done it myself a few times) and not only did we not get shut off, didn't get charged extra, and the account usage page still showed unlimited remaining.
 
VZW really only made the change because they began enforcing and realized that in practice they had not clarified their intent nor that they would be actively managing it. VZW was ahead in this regard.

I expect Sprint will have to address this soon, but I think they will do it without hammering customers or sending out shocking bills. They introduced and marketed unlimited at the program's introduction. I believe they meant to keep it that way until every other major carrier went the complete opposite direction. Then, subtle and fine print changes came into play. That included clarification statements made to BGR and other sites on Sprint's plan. And as long as it was just words and no change in practice it wasn't an issue.

I expect Sprint will fully change it's practices, marketing/sales material, and website information as the opportunity arises. Whether that's a blanket modification or whether at the time of renewals/upgrades I don't know. But I expect it in some form or another in the future. I just think the Evo charge was almost a mistake or tipping of their hand of what is inevitably coming. I don't think Sprint wanted to make plan changes in any definitive way while introducing the Evo, but the $10 "oops" happened.
 
RiverOfIce said:
I am sorry it does not wash. It clearly states imbedded device and I have show current articles that prove there was a data cap.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.
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Do you have anything where Sprint themselves claim there is a current data cap? I have seen all the speculations by the bloggers, but I haven't seen any Sprint exec come out and say there is a 5 GB cap right now. I think some blogger got it wrong and everyone else ran with it based on the first story.

On the contrary, my online usage clearly says I have unlimited data, as does my plan description.

And no, an imbedded modem is not what is in the phone. An embedded modem is what is in a laptop or netbook.
 
Last month for the first time ever on my personal phone and overdrive unit. I got charge for going over the 3g 5gb limits.
 
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