True, so true... So your saying Obama deserves to lose reelection like the "Read My Lips" guy then?
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Face off: Governor vs President
- Thread starter Martimus
- Start date
True, so true... So your saying Obama deserves to lose reelection like the "Read My Lips" guy then?
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
I remember presidents all the way back to Ike, and I can't think of any of them who were not challenged publicly at some point; they all were at times, sometimes by media but also by hecklers and others they encountered in their travels.
Except for Obama, they were all caucasions.
I suppose it could be one more reason to despise Obama, if you're of that ilk.
Except for Obama, they were all caucasions.
I suppose it could be one more reason to despise Obama, if you're of that ilk.
Metroid Prime
Oil Can!!! Oil Can!!!
America at it's finest lol
SamuraiBigEd
Under paid Sasquatch!
Obama has done just as much as any previous president to drive the economy into the ground. His economic stimulus plan which was funded with money borrowed from China on a schedule that prevents it from EVER being fully paid back is pretty damning. That is just one of many failings of Obama.
I love how people applauded Clinton for reducing the debt but when Obama can't it is everybody elses fault. The same rules apply, Clinton inherited a mess and was able to clean it up so what is the big difference here? It is the fact that Obama has really done nothing to reduce the debt, just added to it.
As far as Bush is concerned, no president in history has ever had what was thrust upon him. He may not be perfect, he may not be one of the best presidents we have had, but he dealt with a crisis that would have our current president stumbling all over himself trying to figure out what to do next.
Face it people, Obama did not get elected on his merit or experience (or should I say total lack of exprience), he was PUT in office and whoever is behind it does not have this country's best interests in mind. The actions of his appointee's is very questionable, Eric Holder being a prime example and his recess appointments have been a slap in the face that should have everyone up in arms. To bring race into this is a vain attempt to justify a candidate that never should have been.
Personally I applaud Brewer for getting in his face, after all it was his administrations horribly failed actions that got Arizona Border Patrol agent Brian Terry killed with no recognition or apology to his family. Obama is no better and quite possibly worse than any previous president!
I love how people applauded Clinton for reducing the debt but when Obama can't it is everybody elses fault. The same rules apply, Clinton inherited a mess and was able to clean it up so what is the big difference here? It is the fact that Obama has really done nothing to reduce the debt, just added to it.
As far as Bush is concerned, no president in history has ever had what was thrust upon him. He may not be perfect, he may not be one of the best presidents we have had, but he dealt with a crisis that would have our current president stumbling all over himself trying to figure out what to do next.
Face it people, Obama did not get elected on his merit or experience (or should I say total lack of exprience), he was PUT in office and whoever is behind it does not have this country's best interests in mind. The actions of his appointee's is very questionable, Eric Holder being a prime example and his recess appointments have been a slap in the face that should have everyone up in arms. To bring race into this is a vain attempt to justify a candidate that never should have been.
Personally I applaud Brewer for getting in his face, after all it was his administrations horribly failed actions that got Arizona Border Patrol agent Brian Terry killed with no recognition or apology to his family. Obama is no better and quite possibly worse than any previous president!
Metroid Prime
Oil Can!!! Oil Can!!!
Hey samurai big ed Nice post and I wanted to thank you again for helping me when I first joined yeah this is a huge stinking mess and I don't know when it will get better unless we get another president
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Because Clinton had to deal with the largest economic calamity in 80 years...
SamuraiBigEd
Under paid Sasquatch!
Thanks, thats what the greenies are here for!
Unfortunately no matter who we get it will be politics as usual in D.C.
Metroid Prime
Oil Can!!! Oil Can!!!
So true man so trueThanks, thats what the greenies are here for!
Unfortunately no matter who we get it will be politics as usual in D.C.
Martimus
One bite at a time...
EN... I'm sorry but you are incorrect about President Reagan. While it is true that the sitting President inherits issues from the previous administration, the exact same logic can be used to explain issues at the start of each previous administration. So by using this logic, I guess it's prudent to blame the 13% inflation rate that President Reagan inherited on President Carter.
When Reagan entered office the economy was in deep trouble.
1a. In 1980 the inflation rate was well over 13%.
1b. In 1988 the inflation rate was down to almost 4%.
2a. In 1980 the national debt (per the US Treasury) was $900B
2b. In 1998 the national debt rose to $2.6T.
3a. In 1980 the average cost of unleaded gasoline was around $1.20 per gallon.
3b. In 1988 the average cost of unleaded gasoline had dropped to about $1.00 per gallon.
4a. In the 1980's the US Dept of Labor estimates the consumer price index to be around 77.
5a. In the 1980's the most significant US military operation was to the island of Grenada; and a peacekeeping operation in Beirut.
Government - Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 1950 - 1999
Total Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Vehicle Technologies Program: Fact #364: March 21, 2005 Historical Gas Prices, 1919–2004
Consumer Price Index (CPI-W)
If we look at the sitting President, the inflation rate has been fairly stagnant (which is a good thing!). What has not been stagnant has been inflationary pressures.
1a. In 2008 the national debt was $10T.
1b. In 2012 the national debt is expected to hit $16T.
2a. In 2008 the average price of Gasoline had dropped to almost $1.60 per gallon.
2b. In 2012 the average price of gasoline is expected to hit a summer time high of $4.00 per gallon (in California, Alaska, and Hawaii it will hit $5.00 per gallon).
3a. At the present time the consumer price index is sitting at around 226.
4a. In this decade we have been involved in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (started prior to the current administration); we provided aerial support and helped to oust a dictator in Libya, and now have troops in the Gulf of Hormuz in the event an armed incursion into Iran becomes necessary. Hostility in Syria and Egypt may mandate US involvement in these nations at some point in the future.
Government - Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 2000 - 2010
Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)
Vehicle Technologies Program: Fact #517: May 5, 2008 State Average Gasoline Prices, April 18, 2008
Vehicle Technologies Program: Fact #675: May 16, 2011 Gasoline Prices by Region, May 2, 2011
California gas station surpasses $5 per gallon - Gasbuddy Gas Prices
The challenge here is while the sitting President has done some good things for the nation, he has reneged on a number of promises (not unusual with any President), and has proven himself to be no different than any other sitting President in recent history. And given that this was a President who promised us change, some of the American people are feeling that this President betrayed them...
breadnatty08
pain rustique
Though no one will agree with me, Bill Maher had a nice piece regarding this incident.
Basically, it comes down to respect. It is no hyperbole to think of the president as your mom. Do not ever poke your finger at them. If you have some political (or otherwise) disagreement to bring up, do it with some civility. If it was a regular person, okay, I can dismiss it. To be an elected official and to approach the president with this kind of sophomoric act? Well, I can just be glad to not be a resident of Arizona.
Basically, it comes down to respect. It is no hyperbole to think of the president as your mom. Do not ever poke your finger at them. If you have some political (or otherwise) disagreement to bring up, do it with some civility. If it was a regular person, okay, I can dismiss it. To be an elected official and to approach the president with this kind of sophomoric act? Well, I can just be glad to not be a resident of Arizona.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
No, my problem with Reagan is how he drove up the national debt and carelessly cut regulation, cut welfare programs, and ended the poverty reduction that FDR started. Basically, he created the conditions for the financial crisis to occur, and completely exploded the deficit spending during the good times trend started in the 60's.
Gasoline isn't a measure of economic health. If anything, low fuel prices indicate a public and government feckless about the enviornment. Besides, its a limited resource that's quickly running out, of course its going to go up. Diesel and petrol is twice the cost in Europe it is in the US, (Norway has one of the highest), and it's doing fine, not to mention has much lower carbon dioxide emissions.
Dark Jedi
Android Enthusiast
And how many times did obama want the debt limit raised, and didnt want to cut spending? Lets look at how he tried to use his office for personal things. Like how he interfered with that cop that arrested his friend because a neighbor thought someone was breaking in to the home. How he ran his mouth about people when the interview was getting set up? How he bowed to a foreign leader showing their dominance over the US. How he gave the Queen of England an ipod filled with his personal favorite songs. His wife hugging the Queen. As you saw when they had that royal wedding awhile ago. I saw they didnt forget his and his wifes actions. But I guess the queen and royal family are racists because they didnt invite him due to the color of his skin. lol. Is this a person who is qualified for holding the office of the presidency? Lets not forget how he pulled the troops out of iraq and sent them to Afghanistan. Didnt he say he would have the troops home in what 2 years of him taking office?
I will say every president has had their flaws but obama has nothing that makes him stand out. Him being half black got him in office and his screw ups will keep him out of office in the next election. Has he kept one campaign promise? I know he talked like a 70's used car salesman making all these promises an so on. I cant think of one thing he made good on?
Martimus
One bite at a time...
During Reagan's term the national debt increased from $900 Billion dollars to $2.6 Trillion dollars. During Obama's term, the national debt increased from $10 Trillion dollars and is now quickly approaching $16 Trillion dollars. As an American citizen I'm concerned with the $6 Trillion dollars of accrued debt by the Obama administration. The Reagan administration was responsible for accruing about $1.7 Trillion dollars in debt. Now some will say that the $6 Trillion in debt includes money that was spent by the Bush administration... while this is true, the same can be said of most every administration since the national debt started growing.
With respect to changes in regulation, every President makes changes during their tenure. Some changes work while others don't. Typically any changes that a sitting President makes get revised or tossed out by the next President. This is simply the way it is. In this instance, George HW Bush opted to maintain Reagan's changes, as did Bill Clinton, George W Bush, and Barrack Obama. So it's really not fair to lay all of the blame on Reagan... We've had two Republicans and two Democrats in the White House since Reagan left office. The fact that none of these administrations opted to change things may tell you something... maybe they thought the regulations did not need to be reversed.
On Gasoline, America revolves around gasoline. As such gasoline is very important to the U.S. economy. When gasoline prices go up, consumer confidence (and subsequently consumer spending) goes down. So for us, gasoline IS very closely tied into our economy and our way of life. In many parts of Europe, you still tend to see gasoline/diesel as a luxury. People walk or take mass transit to get from one place to another. In most parts of the U.S., people drive their cars or fly in commercial airplanes from point A to point B. Because of how many American cities are laid out (and the truly colorful characters sometimes seen on mass transit), mass transit simply is not an option for many Americans. So, in my opinion, your description of fossil fuels may be accurate for you in Europe but it's not necessarily valid here in most parts of the United States.
T
TxGoat
Guest
Sadly, Bush Senior's breaking of campaign promises doesn't seem that bad when compared to those that came after him. Of course now we have to contend with these special interests that have decided it's best to infiltrate a candidate at the primaries. The movie, The March of Ides does a decent (if far fetched) job of demonstrating how a good candidate can find him/herself trying to navigate through the gauntlet of rhetoric and scandal.
It's actually a sad commentary on our political system that we've allowed so much illicit access to our leaders. Our country's well-being is mostly an after-thought to most if not all politicians, regardless of what ideology you follow.
T
TxGoat
Guest
Selective memory here, Reagan also spent a lot in an attempt to recover the economy, but that fact tends to get lost in the shuffle.
T
TxGoat
Guest
So the national debt under Reagan went up by almost 300% and under Obama it's gone up by 50%? Does that sound about right? And yet Obama inherited 2 wars and Reagan benefited from the Alaska pipeline opening? Does that sound about right?
Martimus
One bite at a time...
And yet the national debt under Reagan went up by 1.7 Trillion dollars and the national debt under Obama has gone up by 6 Trillion dollars. In raw dollars that means Obama accumulated more than 4.3 Trillion dollars more debt than Reagan. In order words Obama increased our debt at a rate of about 160 Million dollars a month. Reagan, on the other hand, increased our debt at a rate of just under 18 Million dollars a month.
Oh and lets not forget that Reagan accumulated that debt over 8 years while Obama has only been in office for 3 years (and 1 month).
T
TxGoat
Guest
And yet the national debt under Reagan went up by 1.7 Trillion dollars and the national debt under Obama has gone up by 6 Trillion dollars. In raw dollars that means Obama accumulated more than 4.3 Trillion dollars more debt than Reagan. In order words Obama increased our debt at a rate of about 160 Million dollars a month. Reagan, on the other hand, increased our debt at a rate of just under 18 Million dollars a month.
Oh and lets not forget that Reagan accumulated that debt over 8 years while Obama has only been in office for 3 years (and 1 month).
In the early 80s my father used to send me to the local store to pick him up a pack of his favorite cigarettes. He'd give me $1.00 and there would always be change. So what you're saying is if I went to the local store with $1.00 I can pick him up a pack of his favorite smokes? SWEET!
Martimus
One bite at a time...
In the early 80s my father used to send me to the local store to pick him up a pack of his favorite cigarettes. He'd give me $1.00 and there would always be change. So what you're saying is if I went to the local store with $1.00 I can pick him up a pack of his favorite smokes? SWEET!
Hmm... based on the rate of inflation of $1 from 1980 to 2012, what cost $1.00 in 1980 should cost about $2.86 today.
DollarTimes.com | Inflation Calculator
Oh wait... Cigarettes cost around $5 in some states and up to almost $12 in New York.
What A Pack Of Cigarettes Costs, State By State | The Awl
Well why is that? Oh wait... I forgot that President signed the Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009 which nearly tripled the federal excise taxes on cigarettes. Sorry TX I guess you'll need to head across the border into Mexico to find cheap smokes!
Oh wait... the Washington Post reports that there are bullets flying across our border from the drug cartels battling with the Mexican authorities.
El Paso residents used to gunfire across the border, won’t make changes after woman wounded - The Washington Post
Maybe you ought to wait till the border is safe. Oh wait... according to the Obama administration the border is safer than it's ever been!
The Blog @ Homeland Security: Meeting with Southwest Border Officials at the White House
Never mind!
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
I thought we were getting somewhere when Carter came up with the "windfall profit tax" back in '80.
Books have been written about the meanderings of Big Oil to wiggle out of it, but Reagan's election and the subsequent repeal of the tax (his "Trade and Competitiveness Act") set us on the wrong course.. again.
*imo*
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
It is certainly very reasonable to be concerned! Of course, there is the matter of inflation - but the main difference is that that Reagan's deficit spending occured in the context of cut backs on social programs, badly targeted tax cuts and government agencies yet massive spending increases on the military. The 2008 to present deficit is taking place in the context if the worst recession and finacial situation in 80 years. The economy is growing now, and the deficit needs to be closed, but sensibly.
That's a very fair point! It seems to be rare for succeeding administrations to repeal previous policies - understandable I guess. In fact I'd reckon the GOP wouldnt even repeal Obamacare if they could, not in its entirety.
Not exempting others from blame mind, as you can see in my original post on the matter.
All of the world depends on Oil. It's unfortunate, and dumb. There's nothing stopping Americans buying more efficient cars, but granted, need for cars on average is higher in the US. On planes, Europe has 70 million people living off the mainland. Airports are kept plenty busy.
However oil prices are not an indicator of economic health. If anything higher oil prices indicate better economic times. Oil is running out, and demand is increasing. Of course prices will rise. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the government should lower taxes on fossil fuels, especially when the US has probably the cheapest gasoline in the developed world.
Right now, carbon emission are once again increasing rapidly, taxation is a great incentive for change, and nothing should be done to encourage fossil fuel use.
T
TxGoat
Guest
Hmm... based on the rate of inflation of $1 from 1980 to 2012, what cost $1.00 in 1980 should cost about $2.86 today.
DollarTimes.com | Inflation Calculator
Oh wait... Cigarettes cost around $5 in some states and up to almost $12 in New York.
What A Pack Of Cigarettes Costs, State By State | The Awl
Well why is that? Oh wait... I forgot that President signed the Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009 which nearly tripled the federal excise taxes on cigarettes. Sorry TX I guess you'll need to head across the border into Mexico to find cheap smokes!
Oh wait... the Washington Post reports that there are bullets flying across our border from the drug cartels battling with the Mexican authorities.
El Paso residents used to gunfire across the border, won’t make changes after woman wounded - The Washington Post
Maybe you ought to wait till the border is safe. Oh wait... according to the Obama administration the border is safer than it's ever been!
The Blog @ Homeland Security: Meeting with Southwest Border Officials at the White House
Never mind!
I figured my post was sarcastic enough but I guess not. I was actually pointing out the fact that you didn't account for inflation in your post. The fact still remains that Reagan's spending almost TRIPLED the national debt.
When you consider the Bush administration DIDN'T even include the Iraq/Afghanistan wars in their accounting, the outcry of the debt under Obama seems even more curious.
Martimus
One bite at a time...
And the fact remains that Obama's spending TRIPLED that of the Reagan administration.
At the time Reagan entered office the inflation rate was more than 13%. So monies spent at the beginning of his term cost significantly more than monies spent at the end of his term. While you can point out that the cost of money is different now than it was then... the cost of money then was also different than it was during previous administrations.
LOL Politicians hate facts... it gets in the way of their spin on what they want us to believe happened. I've provided numerous facts... as such I gotta assume that I must be hated by politicians!
Which is worse? The lies that the Republicans tell? Or the lies that the Democrats tell? Personally I feel that both parties are simply flip sides of the exact same coin.
I think Tom Clancy said it best in a line spoken by the character Jeffrey Pelt in the movie "The Hunt for Red October". What he said was "I'm a politician which means that I'm a cheat and a liar. When I'm not kissing babies I'm trying to steal their lollipops."
What I have trouble understanding is why people forgive Obama for things that they'd never forgive any other President for. I find it offensive to see his administration disrespect the American people by lying about things as fundamental as border security... Our borders are a mess yet the Obama administration happily spoon feeds us rhetoric that the borders are safer than ever before... and that illegal immigration is significantly down from previous years. As someone who has lived 8 miles from the Mexican border, I can promise you that illegal immigration is not significantly down. What we hear is all purely spin...
T
TxGoat
Guest
And the fact remains that Obama's spending TRIPLED that of the Reagan administration.
Again, so you're saying that the dollar today has the same value as the dollar back in the 1980s?
LOL Politicians hate facts... it gets in the way of their spin on what they want us to believe happened. I've provided numerous facts... as such I gotta assume that I must be hated by politicians!
You've already demonstrated your spin on the facts, Obama's 50% increase of the debt vs Reagan's 300% increase of the debt. You're trying to justify Reagan's increase while chastising Obama's. Your argument would hold more water if you'd come to grips with the fact that BOTH politicians are spending at insane amounts.
Which is worse? The lies that the Republicans tell? Or the lies that the Democrats tell? Personally I feel that both parties are simply flip sides of the exact same coin.
I think Tom Clancy said it best in a line spoken by the character Jeffrey Pelt in the movie "The Hunt for Red October". What he said was "I'm a politician which means that I'm a cheat and a liar. When I'm not kissing babies I'm trying to steal their lollipops."
What I have trouble understanding is why people forgive Obama for things that they'd never forgive any other President for. I find it offensive to see his administration disrespect the American people by lying about things as fundamental as border security... Our borders are a mess yet the Obama administration happily spoon feeds us rhetoric that the borders are safer than ever before... and that illegal immigration is significantly down from previous years. As someone who has lived 8 miles from the Mexican border, I can promise you that illegal immigration is not significantly down. What we hear is all purely spin...
What I put in bold was to see whether or not you're spinning the facts (yet again). So do you still live 8 miles from the Mexican border, and if you don't, what years did you live near the Mexican border? You're in control of how honest you answer this question and will prove my point if you lie to try to "spin the facts".
Also, if this report is correct then I don't see where anyone can accuse Obama of doing less than Bush did when he was in office.
Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration
Martimus
One bite at a time...
Seems like you are spinning things just as much as you claim I am... though you seem to believe that your spinning is factual whereas mine is not. As my late grandmother used to say "There are three sides to every story: yours, mine, AND the truth". I've said my peace... and I've done enough research to know that the facts that I've presented are more correct than most anything we can expect out of the current administration.
You are welcome to spin them all you want... heck contact the Democratic national committee as I'm certain they've laid the groundwork on re-writing history as only political parties can do.
When November comes, I hope we'll see some changes in Washington DC. Will they be improvements? Probably not since any changes will continue to involve Democrats and Republicans.
Our borders will continue to be fluid, the desert near my house by the border will continue to be littered with the human and material refuse from illegal immigrants trekking north from Mexico, the resale value of that house will continue to tank (it's worth significantly less than what I paid for it 15 years ago), and my once marginally diverse retirement portfolio continues to look like a shadow of it's former self. Oh well, I suppose I really did not want to retire...
Have a wonderful weekend!
You are welcome to spin them all you want... heck contact the Democratic national committee as I'm certain they've laid the groundwork on re-writing history as only political parties can do.
When November comes, I hope we'll see some changes in Washington DC. Will they be improvements? Probably not since any changes will continue to involve Democrats and Republicans.
Our borders will continue to be fluid, the desert near my house by the border will continue to be littered with the human and material refuse from illegal immigrants trekking north from Mexico, the resale value of that house will continue to tank (it's worth significantly less than what I paid for it 15 years ago), and my once marginally diverse retirement portfolio continues to look like a shadow of it's former self. Oh well, I suppose I really did not want to retire...
Have a wonderful weekend!