Root Fact or Fiction: Current Progress for the Droid X

[Piiman]

If at all possible? Haha, do you forsee a day when someone from Moto is going to take a family member hostage and send you a note that says, "if you ever want to see your grandmother again, you will buy the Droid 7"!!!!!

Yes! BTW I heard the D7 will be unlocked.

Seriously though I just never say never because you never know. But it's very very unlikely I will ever buy a moto product again.

 

[Wolfedude88]

Yes! BTW I heard the D7 will be unlocked.

Seriously though I just never say never because you never know. But it's very very unlikely I will ever buy a moto product again.

Agreed, at this point I don't plan on buying another Motorola phone again, but that could very easily change. They might release a new smash hit phone in the future, so like you said I am not going to say never again.

 

[Piiman]

Agreed, at this point I don't plan on buying another Motorola phone again, but that could very easily change. They might release a new smash hit phone in the future, so like you said I am not going to say never again.

Will that's not what I meant. The only way is if I have no other option. I don't care how f'ing great some product may be unless I have no other option I'm done with them.

 

[nitsuj17]

My last thoughts on the whole locked down thing as I am no longer a Droid X owner:

I totally understand that the "hacking" community on android at most accounts for 1 in 20 users and that might be very optimistic. That being said I think thats its these individuals who are the most committed to android and thus more likely to "evangelize" it to others.

Personally, although I have only been an android user for 3 months, I have brought several people into the fold. I've always been the "tech" guy among co-workers, family, and friends and thus the person they come to, to ask "what phone should I get," or "I need a laptop, pick it out for me." I've been pointing people towards android even before I got my Droid X. I convinced my boss to get a Droid Eris over a blackberry, my wife to a Droid (which she won't let me hack) over a Palm Pre, my sister to an LG Ally (ha), 2 co-workers to the Droid X, another coworker on Sprint to the Evo, and more recently 3 friends to the Incredible.

I don't believe I'm alone around here in being the person that gives tech suggestions and its people, like me, that when mad at a company like motorola, can greatly affect a small chunk of potential customers. Going forward I will consistently push friends, family, and co-workers away from all things motorola: flip phones, smartphones, tablets whatever it may be. The few thousand bucks this costs them may not be much, but its my way of voting with my wallet and my hope others do the same.

If HTC follows with crap like what they are doing to the G2 there is another oem I will push people away from. My posts here lately have been a lot of yelling off the top of my head, but now that I've moved on I just wanted to share that last thought.

Wish all of the Droid X owners out there the best and I hope you continue to enjoy your phones, and I'll see you around the other sub-forums at some point hopefully.

 

[eulerphi8]

As much as I would love to have open phones, I just don't see most (if any) manufacturers selling fully open phones unless Google forces them to, which they have been unwilling to do. I mean rooting, replacing kernels, etc. etc. is great for consumers, but I think most manufacturers would view these as "illegitimate" activities. We could argue that we're "developers" and need this type of access, but then they would just counter with why don't you just get a N1. Ultimately that might be solution for everyone, making dev phones like the N1 and then having regular phones locked down. I'm not saying that's a good thing or what I want to happen but unless someone forces manufacturers to be open this might be the road ahead. I mean hardware locks like efuse is just the next step right. Rooting etc. ultimately relies on software exploits and when those failed to stop people the manufacturers turned to the hardware side to lock it down further. It's always been a cat and mouse game and this is just the next round.

 

[eulerphi8]

I actually think the biggest problem is how the phone companies tie us down by subsidizing our phones so they think they own a part of it and can dictate what we do with it. Our isp's doesn't subsidize our computers our cable companies don't subsidize or tv's so why should our phones be subsidized? Just let us pay the full price and stop locking out to one carrier and locking the os. If we decide to mess with it and break it hey we can take responsibility for that too.

 

[Piiman]

I actually think the biggest problem is how the phone companies tie us down by subsidizing our phones so they think they own a part of it and can dictate what we do with it. Our isp's doesn't subsidize our computers our cable companies don't subsidize or tv's so why should our phones be subsidized? Just let us pay the full price and stop locking out to one carrier and locking the os. If we decide to mess with it and break it hey we can take responsibility for that too.

Don't believe for a minute they are really subsidizing the price of these phones. The prices are artificially inflated to make you think you are getting something for your commitment to the contract and to allow them to make deals with third parties to put their crap ware on the phone for a fee and make money off "your" phone.

I saw that a Dinc cost 128.00 to make and they sell it for 599.00, please. Matter of fact almost all the phones sell for the same price. Amazing! Now you tell me how do all these phones with all the different hardware configuration all cost the same? I'll tell you how ..its a fake price!

If everyone had to pay full price without this subsidizing BS and bought from a retailer whose only interest was selling a phone they would probably be 250.00 at retail. My guess is the carriers break even on the phone and make their money on the monthly fees from service and third party deals.

I would never buy a phone for 600.00 and I'm guessing the masses wouldn't either. However I wouldn't have any problem signing an agreement to not have warranty if I get the freedom to do what i want with my phone.

 

[eulerphi8]

Right I completely agree that the market is flawed, which is the fundamental problem. If Motorola, HTC, Samsung, LG, etc., all sold phones directly to consumers then prices will fall naturally to what they should be--probably around $200-300 without any contracts and that stuff. The problem is that it won't happen because everyone is getting a cut of the pie right now, both wireless companies and phone manufacturers. I mean it's just collusion so that everyone profits, and just about no other industry gets to do this. Locking your phone to one network is somewhat ridiculous. What if your TV only worked with one cable provider or your computer only connected to the internet through one ISP? Anyway this goes into larger issues of the phone industry in general. Right now we have to live with what we have. However, it's not like this in other parts of the word. I'm not anti-corporation or anti-profits or anything, I just believe in free and fair markets, and the phone industry as a whole is not one of them. This is why I'm not surprised that all these devices are being locked down.

 

[tsanuri]

Don't believe for a minute they are really subsidizing the price of these phones. The prices are artificially inflated to make you think you are getting something for your commitment to the contract and to allow them to make deals with third parties to put their crap ware on the phone for a fee and make money off "your" phone.

I saw that a Dinc cost 128.00 to make and they sell it for 599.00, please. Matter of fact almost all the phones sell for the same price. Amazing! Now you tell me how do all these phones with all the different hardware configuration all cost the same? I'll tell you how ..its a fake price!

If everyone had to pay full price without this subsidizing BS and bought from a retailer whose only interest was selling a phone they would probably be 250.00 at retail. My guess is the carriers break even on the phone and make their money on the monthly fees from service and third party deals.

I would never buy a phone for 600.00 and I'm guessing the masses wouldn't either. However I wouldn't have any problem signing an agreement to not have warranty if I get the freedom to do what i want with my phone.

Where I agree the prices are inflated the cost of the phone does not include any R&D. But jacking up prices is nothing new. Two prime examples in the US are homes and cars. There was a time and we are only talking 20 years ago that homes would cost on adverage 2X the yearly income. Now in many areas you will pay upwards of 10 years income to get a home. And cars were about 25% of a years income. Now if we use 50K as an adverage income, and since we are talking adverage, that is high. The adverage car costs nearly 50% of a years income.
But lets be nice and say R&D doubles the cost of the phone then we are looking at $256 per unit. And it is not uncommon in retail for there to be a 100% markup. We are then at $512. Yes it is stupid and markup for electronics is not normally at the 100% mark that most products are.

 

[Outlaw71]

Mark-up always has been and always will be a lot more than most people realize. When consumers find out what the item actually cost to produce they generally flip out and feel like they're being taken advantage of. But to be completely honest, as someone who has worked for themself selling goods to the general public, I can tell you that mark-up is not only the norm, but it's necessary in order to stay in business.

One particular good that my wife and I sold together is traditionally sold for 7 times what it costs to produce. Every seminar we went to the instructors broke everything down and told us that we needed to mark it up at least 7 times if we were going to survive. We felt bad charging that much though, so we only marked ours up 4 times... within a year that business folded. We could not make ends meet selling it at 4 times the price we paid for it. And trust me, we tried.

So don't get too mad at them for marking the phones up, they really do give them too us for about as close to cost as you can get. So naturally they're going to try and figure ways to make money off of them somehow. How many of you would go to work everyday if all you ever did was break even? Heck we all want to make money... we HAVE to make money. Food doesn't grow on tree's after all (.......... ahhhh, yeah just pretend I didn't say that).

The internet has really slashed most electronics profits over the past decade to tell you the truth. Competition via the internet has brought profit margins crashing down around retail stores. They are having to rely on add-ons such as warrantee's and service contracts and those sorts of things just to stay in business these days. I remember seeing an article a few years back that explained how Sony was selling their Playstation 3 consoles about $50 bucks under the cost of producing them just so that they could compete with the XBox and Wii, and were then dependant on making all their money by selling the games for it. I absolutely would not want to be in the business of selling electronics to the general public today. Heck with all the options open to the consumer these days they have so much leverage when they walk into a department store and they know it. Sales people are fighting for scraps anymore. Not at all the high paying commision job of old, that's forsure.

But I digress, I've wandered a bit too far off topic... my appologies.

 

[eulerphi8]

Haha yes I agree we have wandered way off topic. I see what you guys are saying though. As an economics student though I still believe that the current system we have introduces unnecessary distortions into the market. Phones aren't meant to be free or even $200 for a smartphone, but I'd be willing to pay $400, $500 of whatever the correct price determined by the market is if they come without the strings that are attached now. Naturally phone manufacturers will set this price themselves to stay in profit. It might not be easy being in the electronics industry right now but there are a number of companies making very healthy profits. They will still have a lot of leverage. The system we have now also hinders new companies from entering the industry. Imagine how hard it is for a new startup to go up to one of the big cell phones companies and ask them to carry their phone on their networks. Wouldn't a free market help some business too then?

 

[Outlaw71]

Actually I was talking more about the sales person end of it more than the manufacturer. I knew a woman back in the 90's who made a very good living as a sales woman in the electronics department at Sears. I don't think she would be able to make the kind of money she did back then today however. Because department stores like Sears, HH Greggs, Best Buy and all those guys have had to slash their profit margins to stay competetive with the internet. I'm guilty of helping bring about this trend myself. When I was looking at getting my 65 inch rear projection tv (this was late 90's, before LCD flat screens came out) I had found one on the internet for $3500 dollars, but it didn't have a detailed picture of the back of the tv so I couldn't see what all connections it had.

So I went down to HH Greggs and was looking at their set when a sales guy came up and started trying to sell me the set. The price tag on it was $4500. I told the guy, "well can I get it OTD for $3500"? He laughed and said no way he could come down $1000 bucks on it. So I told him, "ok well that's cool, I have already found an internet site that will ship it to me for $3500 everything paid... so thanks anyways". He still tried to play hardball with me, telling me I couldn't trust internet companies, they were probably sending me a refurb, if it was damaged in some way it could take months to replace, yada yada... it all basically went in one ear and out the other because I really wasn't down there to haggle with anybody, I just wanted to see the connection pannel on the tv.

They intercepted me at the door as I was walking out and offered it to me for $3600 OTD. Hmmmm... so for an extra $100 bucks I could have this baby in my living room TONIGHT??? Sold! Lol, it truely was not my intention to negotiate a deal with them to get that tv, but I wound up getting it there anyway. But just think about how much they lost compared to a non-internet savvy customer... $900 bucks was lost on my sale. That's a lot of money. Which I was happy to keep in my pocket obviously, I'm just saying that earning a good living as a salesman in an electronics store these days can not be a very easy job. Because EVERYONE is internet savvy anymore. And more and more people are just fine with ordering something over the internet. When internet companies were first starting out they had to deal with the skepticism about ordering online because people thought all internet companies were out to do was steal your credit card number.

But most people have gained trust in internet sales.

 

[Piiman]

Haha yes I agree we have wandered way off topic. I see what you guys are saying though. As an economics student though I still believe that the current system we have introduces unnecessary distortions into the market. Phones aren't meant to be free or even $200 for a smartphone, but I'd be willing to pay $400, $500 of whatever the correct price determined by the market is if they come without the strings that are attached now.?

Who says Phones aren't meant to be 200.00? Since when does a category dictate price? If these were being sold in retail stores with no strings attached it might be 500.00 but next year they would be 400.00 then 300 then 200. Electronics always go down as they refine the processes and combine the chips. The phones companies though have a reason to keep them artificially high.

 

[eulerphi8]

Who says Phones aren't meant to be 200.00? Since when does a category dictate price? If these were being sold in retail stores with no strings attached it might be 500.00 but next year they would be 400.00 then 300 then 200. Electronics always go down as they refine the processes and combine the chips. The phones companies though have a reason to keep them artificially high.

Hey man I'm with you, if in the end smartphones only cost $200 to purchase off contract that'd be great. I don't think that's the market situation right now for the best and newest smartphones like the Droid X, but yeah in a year the Droid X will probably be free on-contract and $200 on eBay. If carriers didn't lock it down I'm sure it'd be even less than that. In a year of course the Droid X will have been overtaken by many other smartphones, and that brings me to the point I was trying to make...

I think there is something to be said about this mentality that we've developed that all smartphones are worth about $200, even the newest and best ones. Sure the phone companies are profiting when you buy a phone, but I'm sure that Verizon isn't paying Moto $200 for a Droid X. The actual price is still much higher than that. It also just so happens that analysts like iSuppli provide figures that it costs Moto around $200 to manufacture each smartphone. However that figure is very misleading as it only includes the cost of the components and the labor. If I bought all those components for $200 from Qualcomm, TI, etc., I'd still end up with no functional phone no matter how much labor hours I put into it. Indeed for me to make one Droid X I would have to invest millions of dollars to develop the tools, factories, and technology to produce this phone. Moto had to make that investment too sometime in the past, so it's not really fair to say Moto is making these phones for less than $200 so that's how much they're worth.

That's why I think a free market is necessary. If in the end the market settles on $500 for the greatest smartphone at the time then that's probably the fair price or else another company would just cut the price and compete with the market leader. It the market settles at $200 or even $100 then that's be great although I think that's a bit of a stretch right now. I know that electronics gets cheaper over time, but the price of the best and newest drops at a far slower rate. Yes you can get a computer for $300 or less these days but if you want the best then it'd still be $2000 or more just like it was a few years ago. And when we bought the Droid X it was one of the best smartphones out there.

 

[Outlaw71]

Hey man I'm with you, if in the end smartphones only cost $200 to purchase off contract that'd be great. I don't think that's the market situation right now for the best and newest smartphones like the Droid X, but yeah in a year the Droid X will probably be free on-contract and $200 on eBay. If carriers didn't lock it down I'm sure it'd be even less than that. In a year of course the Droid X will have been overtaken by many other smartphones, and that brings me to the point I was trying to make...

I think there is something to be said about this mentality that we've developed that all smartphones are worth about $200, even the newest and best ones. Sure the phone companies are profiting when you buy a phone, but I'm sure that Verizon isn't paying Moto $200 for a Droid X. The actual price is still much higher than that. It also just so happens that analysts like iSuppli provide figures that it costs Moto around $200 to manufacture each smartphone. However that figure is very misleading as it only includes the cost of the components and the labor. If I bought all those components for $200 from Qualcomm, TI, etc., I'd still end up with no functional phone no matter how much labor hours I put into it. Indeed for me to make one Droid X I would have to invest millions of dollars to develop the tools, factories, and technology to produce this phone. Moto had to make that investment too sometime in the past, so it's not really fair to say Moto is making these phones for less than $200 so that's how much they're worth.

That's why I think a free market is necessary. If in the end the market settles on $500 for the greatest smartphone at the time then that's probably the fair price or else another company would just cut the price and compete with the market leader. It the market settles at $200 or even $100 then that's be great although I think that's a bit of a stretch right now. I know that electronics gets cheaper over time, but the price of the best and newest drops at a far slower rate. Yes you can get a computer for $300 or less these days but if you want the best then it'd still be $2000 or more just like it was a few years ago. And when we bought the Droid X it was one of the best smartphones out there.

You get it, a lot of people however do not. Many people just want to look at the bottom number, the actual figure on the cost of the components (some don't even want to hear about labor) and then presume that if a company markets the product any higher than that figure that they are out to screw the customer over. But there is so much more to manufacturing than how much the components of a certain product cost.

In the scheme of things, it's easy to look at a big corporation and label them the bad guy. But scale it down a little bit, let's say you were a piano maker and it cost you $500 dollars in parts to put together a piano. So your neighbor finds out you're a piano maker, he wants a piano, so he asks you to make him a piano. If he finds out how much it costs you in parts to make that piano, you might as well forget it. Because he will then expect you to deliver a complete, working, flawless piano to his door for no more than $550 bucks... MAYBE $600 if he's really generous. Never mind that it takes you a week to put together that piano. Now who here could pay their bills, feed their family, and enjoy the life that they want to live making $50 - $100 bucks per week?

Nobody, you would need to make at least $500 - $700 bucks off of it just to be able to pay basic bills, your mortgage, car payment, and groceries. Add another $500 - $1000 to that figure to be able to spend money on your hobby, take a vacation, put away money for retirement, upgrade your car to something more luxurious and/or sporty... But the problem is, if your neighbor knows you have $500 bucks worth of parts in that piano and you hand him a bill for $2000 dollars, he's not only going to rip that bill up, but he's going to go around town trashing your name and telling everyone you're a complete rip off artist who takes advantage of people.

That's why the number one rule in business is never let the consumer know your cost. Because they can never, and will never realize everything that goes into the production of the product. All they will see is the base figure and then expect you to give it to them for as close to that base figure as you can possible get. I have worked for myself many times and this is always the biggest obstacle to over come.

That and if you're a friendly person everyone you deal with comes to think of you as their 'friend'... which then leads them to feel as if they deserve some sort of 'friend discount'... it's maddening!