Google: Android Market will have 15 minute refund window

[pawnmower]

If you want to blame anyone, blame users who abuse the system and took advantage by playing games/using apps for the time limit then getting a refund.

15 minutes seems reasonable to me., but what do I know...

 

[RichSz]

If you want to blame anyone, blame users who abuse the system and took advantage by playing games/using apps for the time limit then getting a refund.

15 minutes seems reasonable to me., but what do I know...

While the abusers are jerks, I firmly blame Google for an overly heavy-handed policy. I simply will not buy apps without a reasonable demo. If sales drop and developers complain, Google will be forced to change it.

I will vote with my wallet, it's the only way anyone will listen.

 

[SupraLance]

I think Essex is right and neither abuse of the 24 hour period nor what the developers want has anything to do with this change. Google's business model has always been about the residual income to be made off of advertising, which trumps any percentage they may get of a one-time sale. Google has made no secret of the fact they would rather see all Android applications be ad-based and "free".

 

[funpig]

I'm new to Android. I have been testing a beta app these last few weeks. It is a fully working version. From what I've seen written by the developer, the beta versions have some sort of time limit and copy protection (which keeps getting extended as she comes up with another beta update). Eventually, it will become a paid app and you won't be able to use it unless you pay. This could still work. Put out a time limited versions for people to try for a few weeks and then just make it a paid app with a 15 minute refund period. New Android converts down the line won't have the opportunity to do a full trial and will have to rely upon forums like this one to make shopping choices. One positive is that it may keep the costs of apps down (people are less likely to buy anything really expensive if there is only small opportunity to get refund). I also figure it must be costly to have to deal with these refunds, espectially these purchases which are only a few dollars each.

 

[Essex]

I think funpig has made a valid observation. Developers would be wise to provide some way for users to try their apps without risking money. Because of the 15-minute refund window, I will not be buying any apps before I have a chance to evaluate them for more than fifteen minutes. Based on some of the responses in this thread, I am not the only one who feels this way.

Looking into my crystal ball, I think the 15-minute refund window will lead to more limited time trial apps that require users to purchase the full version after a certain trial period expires (see "Power Amp" music player). Which is a reasonable compromise for both the developer and consumer.

Also, I think we'll see developers release more fully functional, free, ad-supported apps along with a fully functional paid versions of apps (see "AndroZip" file manager). Again, this is another win-win for developers and consumers alike. Those who don't want to "pay" for fully functional apps won't have to. And those who don't want to be spammed with ads will opt to pay for the paid version. The developer makes money regardless of the user's choice (provided of course, that the app is worth keeping or paying for).

Some devs won't even bother with a paid app, and will simply release a free, ad-supported version of their apps (see "Angry Birds").

I think "lite" versions of apps will slowly disappear. Only the most dedicated developers will continue to release (and support) "lite" or demo apps.

I really don't think the 15-minute refund window amounts to Google "picking sides." I think Google just wants to encourage more developers to use AdMob as a revenue driver. This just me speculating though. I really have no idea why Google would neuter its 24-hour refund policy.

 

[SlvrScoobie]

I got stiffed on a .99$ app. bought it expecting a 24 hour return peroid. Its an ODBII scanner app. I NEED a few hours to play with it, and guess what Im not playing with it in my car as SOON as I buy it
sheesh, i thought 24 hours was kinda slim to begin with, but to jump RIGHT to 15 minutes, its as bad as the TSA! go from one "extreme" to the other.

 

[Stevessvt]

I believe they should make full function trial apps that work for a limited time frame (24 hours sounds good) then you have to buy. If that where true for everything then I woudnt care if there was no return policy.

I think this guy has the answer right here.


Wait....

 

[admile3]

I honestly think that its a step in the right direction, and I'll tell you why.

24 hour trial to refund is WAY too long. Period. Sure, 15 mins might be a bit much of an over-compensation, and I agree with others that have stated a little more time would be more welcome (30 mins-45 mins)

Benefits to the user:
Yes, there is the con of having to try to tell if your purchase is worth the price in the short refund window that is given. However, this will allow for certain things to occur.

• First, it will force more developers to create a "trial" version of their application. The perks of a trial version? They're usually good for days, if not weeks, they often don't contain ads, and they're often full-featured (unlike many ad-supported versions of applications) This way, you have possibly DAYS or WEEKS to figure out if you would like to purchase an app.
• It will (hopefully) foster the development of higher-quality applications by more established and prominent developers. A system (at least, any that's better in terms of the 24 hr system) to help curb piracy is a very welcome addition. *however, it really chaps me when people put stuff like "I mean if too many people are refunding then well.. make better apps." It's not always that simple, and if you think everyone is refunding an app simply because it doesnt have quality or value, then you might be very ignorant on what's really the cause for a change like this*

Benefits for the Developer:
As someone who is jumping into developing an application head-first with a buddy of mine, a change like this is seen in the right direction. Piracy is a HUGE concern for developers that are looking to put out an android application they're hoping to charge money for. Of course, a pirate will be a pirate. It wont stop piracy by any means, and I feel that Google is really dragging their feet on finding ways to bring an end to the piracy. However, one large reason that piracy is so rampant is because of the 24 hr grace period on refunds. If this stops even just 20% of piracy, then that's 20% more revenue for the companies, studios, individuals that are putting their hard earned time and effort into creating an application for the good of the android community. There is constant whining on android forums about the lack of quality in android applications compared to those found in the iOS app store, and I can guarantee that piracy is one of the, if not THE, main reason why android has been slow to bring over bigger, more prominent developers to the operating system. It's not like Android doesnt have the user base, the hardware, the daily activations to make the development of an application worthwhile. That it DOESNT have is a firm way to protect the development community from piracy and from losing money that many have to SPEND in order to make an application and upkeep it.

I'm 100% for this change, and if you're mad/sad about it, then just make sure you do your research on an application before downloading it. This forum is a great resource to get your questions answered, to find out all the ins-and-outs of an application, and to even find out how well it runs on a specific device.

 

[SlvrScoobie]

However, one large reason that piracy is so rampant is because of the 24 hr grace period on refunds. If this stops even just 20% of piracy, then that's 20% more revenue for the companies, studios, individuals that are putting their hard earned time and effort into creating an application for the good of the android community.

if you Honestly think that piracy takes more than 1 minute, your mad.
Youve got 2 scenarios for pirates.
buy it, make a copy, ask for refund, post APK. This takes what, 30 seconds, maybe?
buy / steal / take a phone, post up all apps. then it doesnt matter if its paid for in 15 min or 15 days.

 

[admile3]

if you Honestly think that piracy takes more than 1 minute, your mad.
Youve got 2 scenarios for pirates.
buy it, make a copy, ask for refund, post APK. This takes what, 30 seconds, maybe?
buy / steal / take a phone, post up all apps. then it doesnt matter if its paid for in 15 min or 15 days.

I never said piracy took any longer than a minute to do. What I am saying is that this change might very well help to curb SOME of the piracy that is taking place. Not every single pirated copy comes from someone who is proficient in pirating, or knows exactly what to do with the application to get it for free. I'll give you 2 OTHER scenarios in which this sort of a time frame can help

1) Little Timmy downloads a paid game with a 24hr refund period. He gets online after playing it for a while to find out more about it and reads that he can get the game for free by copying it, then getting a refund. The previous policy allows him an entire day to come to this realization. The 15-minute window? Guess what, by the time he figures it out, he's already bought the application.

2) Same scenario as above, only, he finds out that he can buy it elsewhere for cheaper (a place that copied the .apk and sells it for less illegally, which just spawns MORE piracy. Or that he can post it up for a group or community to take advantage of). By the time he does the research on this, guess what, he's already paid for it after a 15 min window.

You've got to remember, we here at androidforums represent only a VERY VERY tiny demographic within the android environment. For the most part, those who frequent a forum focused around something like this are usually more tech-savvy than the average user. Google claims 300,000 android activations a DAY. This means there is a HUGE amount of people (a majority) that know nothing about copying .apk's or even what an apk is. The shorter amount of time that we can give the AVERAGE user to come to the realization that they can get a paid application for free, the better.

 

[IRunGameEP]

I can't believe so many people are complaining about this. How much are you paying for these apps/games, 2, 4, maybe 5 dollars? 90% of the people complaining are people who abuse the system in place. I don't have one problem with this change. I check the app or game out, read the reviews, then make my decision. I haven't once needed to refund an app. Maybe you guys should be a little more careful where you put your money if youre that worried about it.

24hrs was too long. If you need that long to figure out if you want to keep it or not, youre either a) stealing it like someone else said, or b) a ear biting drooler that cant read a digital clock. Get over it, youre only getting 15 mins.

 

[SlvrScoobie]

but thats such a small small segment of people that are going to be asking for refunds
those are the people that this will only hurt because they buy a game, it sucks, and 2 hours later... oops no refunds now
so it doesnt HELP make customers feel better, it doesnt help curb pirating, because once timmy has discovered the APKs hell be Pissed he paid 2.99 for that other less good game, so hell go searching them out next time to "get his moneys worth"
if it cant STOP pirates, its only hurting customers, and dev need to remember those are the people theyre supposed to be helping
not be butt hurt cause you think you should be making 20000 sales this month and those damn pirates kept you at 13000. if you want to STOP pirates, look at Car Locator. he has an online license verification key and yes the APK is out, but its not letting anyone use it. He didnt whine about a 5 minute return policy to save 20% of piracy.

 

[admile3]

but thats such a small small segment of people that are going to be asking for refunds
those are the people that this will only hurt because they buy a game, it sucks, and 2 hours later... oops no refunds now
so it doesnt HELP make customers feel better, it doesnt help curb pirating, because once timmy has discovered the APKs hell be Pissed he paid 2.99 for that other less good game, so hell go searching them out next time to "get his moneys worth"
if it cant STOP pirates, its only hurting customers, and dev need to remember those are the people theyre supposed to be helping
not be butt hurt cause you think you should be making 20000 sales this month and those damn pirates kept you at 13000. if you want to STOP pirates, look at Car Locator. he has an online license verification key and yes the APK is out, but its not letting anyone use it. He didnt whine about a 5 minute return policy to save 20% of piracy.

You've got to understand something about Car Locater, and that is this - making that kind of money off an application is a very rare occurance. You act as if everyone that creates an app within the android market is making bookoos of money. I hate to rain on your ignorance parade, but that is definitely not the case... it's an EXCEPTION. There are many factors that play into making money with an application. Ad-supported versions do not put forth NEARLY the revenue that a lot of people think. Many developers of ad-supported applications barely make enough money a month to cover their cellphone bill, nonetheless to be able make any sort of life doing it.

It takes time, it takes effort, and it takes money in order to develop a quality application. Dont believe me? Go ahead and give your hand a try at it.

Because of this time, effort, and money, and the often LITTLE monetary reward for that time, effort, and money, serious developers and companies are often swayed from developing for Android. Dont believe me on this? Go look up some articles pertaining to big developers in iOS when asked about whether they'll develop for android. Many of them say they either dont plan on doing it because of the way the market is run (ie piracy and protection of their applications) or that they're still in a holding pattern to see how Google will remedy those problems.

If anything, a change like this will help to spur new development by more serious developers and companies with greater resources to put forth into developing an application for Android. It will result in one of two things

1) Higher-quality applications, with greater features to make it worth its price, with a trial version that could certainly be longer than the original 24 hours.
2) More completely FREE applications that dont have the features/quality to allow it to survive as a paid application

So no, you are not going to be hurting customers nearly as much as YOU feel it will.

 

[IRunGameEP]

Theres a quick fix to all of this. Dont let people install apks that arent directly from the market, like a certain other company *COUGH**APPLE*...sorry. Take that option out of the OS and, lo and behold, no more problems. What do people need that option for anyway? To install Z4, Fission Rom Manager or some other app theyre not supposed to have on there? Lock the OS like it should be, and keep it open in others. You cant have a fully open source OS and make money, it will never happen. Cause problems like this are always going to happen. Keep it closed where it needs to be, keep it open for development, and these problems go away. People will bitch and mone, ooooh Android is open source WTF, waaaaaah...but at the end of the day, theyre going to need to close it if they ever want to get close to the market share of Apple or Craposoft. Once the OS is locked youll see a HUGE boost in major game developers. The reason why they dont come over to Android full force is because it's open source..

 

[SlvrScoobie]

Well we can agree to disagree. I know I wont be buying anything without checking it out. which often means not buying it because so few apps are honestly reviewed. I have a feeling this is a common problem. Almost everyone i know has an android now, and most dont buy apps - and this will not convince them to start.
And then google will decide if it made a good decision and we will see whos right.

 

[SlvrScoobie]

Theres a quick fix to all of this. Dont let people install apks that arent directly from the market, like a certain other company *COUGH**APPLE*...sorry. Take that option out of the OS and, lo and behold, no more problems. What do people need that option for anyway? To install Z4, Fission Rom Manager or some other app theyre not supposed to have on there? Lock the OS like it should be, and keep it open in others. You cant have a fully open source OS and make money, it will never happen. Cause problems like this are always going to happen. Keep it closed where it needs to be, keep it open for development, and these problems go away. People will bitch and mone, ooooh Android is open source WTF, waaaaaah...but at the end of the day, theyre going to need to close it if they ever want to get close to the market share of Apple or Craposoft. Once the OS is locked youll see a HUGE boost in major game developers. The reason why they dont come over to Android full force is because it's open source..

yea close it off and make side loading apps illegal - thatll fix em

like Moto did to the droids boot loader right - stopped those rom hackers didnt it
closing the OS would be the death of it

 

[admile3]

Well we can agree to disagree. I know I wont be buying anything without checking it out. which often means not buying it because so few apps are honestly reviewed. I have a feeling this is a common problem. Almost everyone i know has an android now, and most dont buy apps - and this will not convince them to start.
And then google will decide if it made a good decision and we will see whos right.

What I'm saying in a nutshell is that this will force developers to work harder to make an application worth your money. They will create full-featured trial versions. They will be of higher quality. They will create videos on Youtube of the application in action, and the higher quality will give websites like this more reason to spend the time (and the developer more reason to push) to get a review done on the application.

And if it cant suffice as a paid application, it will go FREE and ad-supported.

Who would not want developers working harder to get a consumers adoration of their product? I still dont get how the consumers are REALLY getting hurt here...

 

[lifeonmtv]

it's a facepalm party up in here!