Government Debt

[MeepMeepChu]

How can we NOT be in a recession? For the past several decades, every governmental action that was targeted to aid the public in some way has been targeted to benefit groups that don't spend money -- those below the poverty line, who don't have money to spend, and the capitalist elites who got to that point by only spending money on things that end up padding their income some more, so they get back more than they put in... and keep pulling more out of the economy without having to put anything in.
And then all the economists are telling us to go spend money. What money? If you power your house by hamster wheels, and don't feed your hamsters, how do you expect them to keep running!?


There is also another reason -- just look at Cialdini's Reciprocation rule. simply stated, it says that people will return favors. and for most people, if they can't find a way to return an equal favor, they'll be willing to return a bigger one after some time just so they don't owe that favor any more.
So how does this apply to government? Well, you have corporations and wealthy elites who pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions and other donations to candidates running for office (usually to every candidate). Later, they ask for hefty government contracts and such, worth millions or billions of dollars; or a change in law to benefit them, even if it's not in the country's or citizen's best interests... and guess what, they always get it since the body that controls these types of things is made of 535 people, and usually only needs a simple majority to make the change.
It doesn't matter Republican or Democrat, and it's not corruption per se, just human nature.

Regarding ObamaCare--- Um, unless I misunderstood some posts here, I get the feeling people are saying that OC is some kind of nationalized healthcare? I guess it started that way but by the time it was voted on, it morphed to something else entirely: it...
*Rearranged some loopholes
*Requires people to buy healthcare
*Punishes people for being unable to afford said healthcare.
and that's about it...

 

[RiverOfIce]

How can we NOT be in a recession?

Regarding ObamaCare---

We are not in a recession, thanks to obama.

A recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country's gross domestic product.

We where in a recession from jan 08 to jan 09. After obama took office, the gpd has gone up from 1 to 5% per quarter, because obama's direct stimulus and economic oversight.

Now, in a historical perceptive, 1 to 5% growth for a republican, is the best growth ever. For a democrat, it is really piss poor.

We are technology in an economic pseudo-depression. Do to the current republican efforts to stop the both the economic stimulus and failure pass the balance budget. The republicans know they are damaging the recovery, because a horrible economy is a good 2012 win for them.

Personally, I hate obamacare, but better something then nothing. We need to have universal healthcare.

 

[noah way]

We are not in a recession, thanks to obama.

A recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country's gross domestic product.

This is about as accurate a measure as unemployment statistics that don't count people who have exhausted their benefits, part timers, the self-employed, etc. The Bureau of Labor Statistics calculates a more realistic figure which is currently 16.2% (the "official" rate is 9.2%). There is some suspicion that even this alternate number is a misrepresentation of how bad things are.

We where in a recession from jan 08 to jan 09. After obama took office, the gpd has gone up from 1 to 5% per quarter, because obama's direct stimulus and economic oversight.

To be fair, the first $700 billion (TARP) was part of the Bush budget. In the same vein, conservatives who blame BO for this part of the "deficit" are incorrect.

We are technology in an economic pseudo-depression. Do to the current republican efforts to stop the both the economic stimulus and failure pass the balance budget. The republicans know they are damaging the recovery, because a horrible economy is a good 2012 win for them.

I'm not so sure about that. Republicans have boxed themselves into a corner between their corporate sponsors (who want the ceiling lifted) and the fundamentalists (who don't). Meanwhile the majority of the American public sees Republicans obstructing economic recovery at our expense. Every election now is about voting the bums out. Unfortunately there are only bums to vote in.

Personally, I hate obamacare, but better something then nothing. We need to have universal healthcare.

I'm not sure that it is better than nothing. This is the GOP plan from 1994 that was intended to derail Hillary's health care reform.

 

[A.Nonymous]

We are technology in an economic pseudo-depression. Do to the current republican efforts to stop the both the economic stimulus and failure pass the balance budget. The republicans know they are damaging the recovery, because a horrible economy is a good 2012 win for them.

The sad part is if the situation were reverse, the Democrats would be doing the exact same thing because a bad economy would be a good 2012 win for them too. This is what is so fundamentally wrong about Washington. Neither party has the best interests of their constituents at heart. The system does not reward them for that.

Personally, I hate obamacare, but better something then nothing. We need to have universal healthcare.

We need healthcare that everyone can afford. Then people can choose to buy it or not buy it. If they don't, I have no sympathy for them. What we need to do is address the issue of why healthcare is so freaking expensive and what we can do to lower those costs. Instead, we're looking for ways to buy expensive healthcare for everyone.

 

[RiverOfIce]

This is about as accurate a measure as unemployment statistics


To be fair, the first $700 billion (TARP) was part of the Bush budget. In the same vein, conservatives who blame BO for this part of the "deficit" are incorrect.



I'm not sure that it is better than nothing. This is the GOP plan from 1994 that was intended to derail Hillary's health care reform.

Unemployment is a huge slippery slope when used to measure the economy. Because when the gdp is up, we can have volunteer unemployment. One person is making 100,000 dollars a year the other is staying home with the kids. It is not like the other partner could not get a job, but just chooses not to. The second problem with unemployment is the unevenness of it across the country. Some pockets have unemployment of less then 1%, while other have unemployment of 40%. While it is bad to be with out a job, it is very hard to give an overall impression of the economy by just looking at those numbers.

The tarp was a payout for lack regulation of the bush error, I mean era. Tarp did very little to help the gdp. Obamacare will help reduce the cost of healthcare.

A.Nonymous- I do agree that both sides will play chicken to win, the problem with the republicans is that they currently have nothing to lose. They where elected to change the system, but have offered nothing but digging in.

But the democrats will fold if at the dead line, they always do.

“If this gets chaotic, they [the Senate] will fold like a cheap suit,” Boehner said, according to GOP sources.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60022_Page2.html

 

[Frisco]

Emergency Team Of 8th-Grade Civics Teachers Dispatched To Washington | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

 

[ElasticNinja]

Ever since I lost Fox, the Onion has become my daily satirical news source. Its worryingly accurate sometimes too

 

[A.Nonymous]

Unemployment is a huge slippery slope when used to measure the economy. Because when the gdp is up, we can have volunteer unemployment. One person is making 100,000 dollars a year the other is staying home with the kids. It is not like the other partner could not get a job, but just chooses not to. The second problem with unemployment is the unevenness of it across the country. Some pockets have unemployment of less then 1%, while other have unemployment of 40%. While it is bad to be with out a job, it is very hard to give an overall impression of the economy by just looking at those numbers.

A stay at home parent doesn't count in the unemployment numbers. Discouraged workers don't count in the unemployment numbers. The unemployment numbers basically include those who are looking for jobs, but can't find them. Once you stop looking ('cuz you've decided to stay home or you're just tired of looking) you no longer count in the unemployment numbers. The guy camped out on his parents couch who hasn't looked for work in months doesn't count. Neither does the stay at home mom.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Emergency Team Of 8th-Grade Civics Teachers Dispatched To Washington | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

By gosh, it's getting serious, sending in the pure of heart is a last ditch effort.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I find it interesting when Mr. Obama was proud of the unemployment figures when he did whatever he did to slow the growth in those numbers. He said unemployment claims sharply dropped so his plan works.

What was not generally reported was unemployment benefits stopped because there was no more money, so naturally, claims dropped.

So read unemployment figures with care.

 

[OutofDate1980]

I find it interesting when Mr. Obama was proud of the unemployment figures when he did whatever he did to slow the growth in those numbers. He said unemployment claims sharply dropped so his plan works.

What was not generally reported was unemployment benefits stopped because there was no more money, so naturally, claims dropped.

So read unemployment figures with care.

Huh ?
"President Obama Re-authorizes Federal Unemployment Extension for 2012 Due To Continuously High Unemployment Numbers"

Read more: President Obama Re-authorizes Federal Unemployment Extension for 2012 Due To Continuously High Unemployment Numbers | Benzinga.com
​

 

[ArmageddonX]

Raise the Debt Ceiling long enough for us to make the following changes:

• Cut Federal spending as much as possible so long that it doesn't hurt our most vulnerable citizens. The Elderly, Children, and the Disabled.
• Lower corporate taxes while increasing corporate regulation. Also Union regulation.
• Return taxes back to the levels & brackets from 1950. (VERY Important Step)
• Double the taxation on Alchohol & Tabacco. Legalize Marijuana and tax it also.
• Create Term Limits for all Federal & State Representatives & stop life-long paychecks for these positions. No more professional politicians.
• End the Wars overseas and stop policing the world. Which, in turn, lowers defense/military spending.
• Close the borders and stop giving illegal immigrants tax payers money.
• Finally, stop raising the debt ceiling as soon as possible once the changes are made.

I'm no expert. In-fact, I'm probably an idiot... but that's my take on some of the issues.

 

[noah way]

I find it interesting when Mr. Obama was proud of the unemployment figures when he did whatever he did to slow the growth in those numbers. He said unemployment claims sharply dropped so his plan works.

What was not generally reported was unemployment benefits stopped because there was no more money, so naturally, claims dropped.

So read unemployment figures with care.

 

[noah way]

I'm no expert. In-fact, I'm probably an idiot... but that's my take on some of the issues.

I was ready to agree with you on the last part, but then I read your post again. Let's take these one at a time.

Cut Federal spending as much as possible so long that it doesn't hurt our most vulnerable citizens. The Elderly, Children, and the Disabled.

Let's identify some specific cuts rather than just say "as much as possible". Here are two big ones:

Corporate subsidies (agribusiness, oil, etc.).
Global military bases (700+ outside of the US).

Lower corporate taxes while increasing corporate regulation. Also Union regulation.

Corporate tax abuse is widespread. Despite a 35% corporate tax rate, GE, Verizon, Amazon all paid no taxes. Exxon Mobil got billion+ REFUND despite paying no taxes and having over $15 billion in profits. So we don't need lower corporate taxes, we need to eliminate corporate tax loopholes.

Regulation is vital. The mortgage crisis is essentially the result of regulatory (SEC) and legislative (the repeal of Glass Steagall Act, the Gramm Leach Bliley Act) failures.

Return taxes back to the levels & brackets from 1950. (VERY Important Step)

Agreed. This was a period of high growth. High taxes are not job-killing: low taxes are. The money gets "saved" (taken out of circulation [low taxes] or invested overseas [no taxes]) rather than spent on domestic jobs and production that generates tax revenue.

Double the taxation on Alchohol & Tabacco. Legalize Marijuana and tax it also.

Agreed. Decriminalization will have other positive economic effects by reducing prison and associated costs. And this is how tax policy is supposed to work: punishing "bad" behavior (and rewarding "good").

Create Term Limits for all Federal & State Representatives & stop life-long paychecks for these positions. No more professional politicians.

Replacing one set of crooks with another? Better to reform the system, outlaw lobbying, eliminate corporate money in politics, make insider trading a crime for politicians (they are exempt), eliminate health and retirement benefits for elected officials (let them buy their own like everyone else).

End the Wars overseas and stop policing the world. Which, in turn, lowers defense/military spending.

I wouldn't call it policing the world, as I tend to look at the US military as the security arm of the corporate-financial complex. But I wholeheartedly agree. There is no reason for us to spend more than the next 30 countries combined on offense defense. Or to be the world's biggest arms dealer (over 50%), which is destabilizing and the cause of much pain and suffering.

Close the borders and stop giving illegal immigrants tax payers money.

I agree with tighter immigration control, but think the real problem is free trade agreements (NAFTA) that allows US corporations to dump product in Mexico, causing unemployment there that spurs illegal immigration. This is also another huge tax loophole for corporations, and one of the primary causes of the loss of industrial production in the US.

Finally, stop raising the debt ceiling as soon as possible once the changes are made.

The ability to borrow is a critical part of sound financial management. WWII was fought on borrowed money. At the end of the war the ratio of debt to gross domestic product (GDP) was 120% - we owed 1/5 more than we made. But by 1950 it was under 100% and by 1980 it was just over 30%. This was paid down with booming growth (during a period of high taxation. so much for job killing tax hikes). Then Reagan took office ...

Now I'll add two more:

Eliminate the foreign investment tax credit that rewards investment outside the US not with tax reductions but with tax credits (subsidies). One of the reasons things are so bad here is that a lot of the TARP money got invested in Asia (tax free, of course).

Single payer health care. This would dramatically reduce the cost of care by eliminating the 50% markup created by insurers (profit and overhead; driving up the cost of care with low reimbursements and excessive paperwork; denial of care and the shuffling of the sick into public care (at taxpayer expense) to maximize profits, etc., etc.).

 

[A.Nonymous]

Raise the Debt Ceiling long enough for us to make the following changes:

• Cut Federal spending as much as possible so long that it doesn't hurt our most vulnerable citizens. The Elderly, Children, and the Disabled.

The problem is that over half of our spending is on Medicare and Social Security. It's next to impossible to make spending cuts without touching those programs and the minute you do you are going to cause pain to to some if not all of the groups you named.

Lower corporate taxes while increasing corporate regulation. Also Union regulation.

I'm skeptical that more government regulation is the answer here. IMO and IME, increased government regulation usually does not end up well.

• Return taxes back to the levels & brackets from 1950. (VERY Important Step)

I'd have to do some research before saying yea or nay on this one.

Double the taxation on Alchohol & Tabacco. Legalize Marijuana and tax it also.

I'm both a non-smoker and a tee totaler, but I'm opposed to this one. I don't see how it's going to raise any significant revenue at all so I'm not sure what the point is.

• Create Term Limits for all Federal & State Representatives & stop life-long paychecks for these positions. No more professional politicians.

This one I can agree with.

• End the Wars overseas and stop policing the world. Which, in turn, lowers defense/military spending.

I agree with the sentiment, but I really don't know how practical this is.

Close the borders and stop giving illegal immigrants tax payers money.

Not sure how we're "giving illegal immigrants tax payer money". If we are, then we should stop it. I'm not a fan of closing the border though.

• Finally, stop raising the debt ceiling as soon as possible once the changes are made.

Sadly, I don't think this is realistic.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Raise the Debt Ceiling long enough for us to make the following changes:

• Cut Federal spending as much as possible so long that it doesn't hurt our most vulnerable citizens. The Elderly, Children, and the Disabled.
• Lower corporate taxes while increasing corporate regulation. Also Union regulation.
• Return taxes back to the levels & brackets from 1950. (VERY Important Step)
• Double the taxation on Alchohol & Tabacco. Legalize Marijuana and tax it also.
• Create Term Limits for all Federal & State Representatives & stop life-long paychecks for these positions. No more professional politicians.
• End the Wars overseas and stop policing the world. Which, in turn, lowers defense/military spending.
• Close the borders and stop giving illegal immigrants tax payers money.
• Finally, stop raising the debt ceiling as soon as possible once the changes are made.

I'm no expert. In-fact, I'm probably an idiot... but that's my take on some of the issues.

Honestly, that would really do nothing. What you are posting on is just a few billion dollars.

Tax brackets from the 1950's assumes there IS a middle class, which there is not. It also assumes that a family of 4 can survives on 12,000 a year, which they cant.

Miltary spending would save 2 trillion over the next 10 years to end the wars. Unless you are talking about cutting it to only civil defense, which would save 7 trillion over 10 years.

Doing all of your measures would destroy the economy and still run a debt of 1 trillion dollars a year. You have to cut social security, medicare, and medicaid. The only way to do that with out hurting the people that depend on those programs is universal healthcare.

And the political paycheck, if you don't pay them, they will start taking more money under the table.

 

[OutofDate1980]

... The republican can not win the next election unless the economy is bad. ...

Perry is well aware of this, thus his threat to the Federal Reserve to be charged with treason if they take action to improve the economy.

Rick Perry attacks Ben Bernanke's 'treasonous' Federal Reserve strategy | World news | guardian.co.uk

 

[Sue7M3]

Did any of the previous presidents inherit two wars and a collapsing economy? People love to criticize him and conveniently ignore the fact he inherited a giant load of excrement from Bush, who was inept to say the least.

As for Rush Limbaugh, he's so blatantly racist that he's lost all credibility with me.