• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

Healthcare Reform - Obama

Shocked you would link to FauxNews. :rolleyes: Try getting your news from real news outlets and you would see that windows were smashed out at Dem offices in 3 states. A coffin was placed on on a D lawmakers lawn. A gas line was cut at the brother of a Democrat lawmaker. Fake anthrax was sent to Anthony Weiner a Dem from New York, etc... but yeah violence is the MO of the left.

Coincidence. I don't have cable so I don't have fox news. I did a search for "cnn congressman shooting" and this is what came up.. along with a few other less know publications. Fox news is a news agency just like the rest. They just report the other side of the story. What most people are upset about is the commentaries....that are slanted to the right....just like cbs, cnn and so on.....only theirs is slanted to the left. The difference is you don't hear much about cbs's commentaries because like talk radio lefties don't listen and rights for sure not.

It's healthy to listen to both to get both sides of the story. Now can we stop making fun of fox news as it's really irrelevant especially in this instance.
 
I went through and read quite a bit of this thread. I did, however, avoid the rhetoric and sound bites posted by many. If I didn't read your "well thought out" post then I would like to say I am sorry, but I'm not really.

Some of you need to put down the propaganda and really look into what all this means. EVERYONE in the United States has access to doctors and health care, even those that aren't here legally. None of this is actually about health care or concern for the citizens of this country. This is all about control. If any of you actually believe that the people in Washington care if you are sick or well, then you live in a fantasy land. A day will come for each and every one of you when you actually understand what is happening in this country and what all of this actually means. I am not a religions person, but I pray for each of you that your bleeding hearts don't stop right there on the spot.

Welcome to the end.
 
Interesting juxtaposition of quotes here, because while you chastise people for making assumptions, you assume the left is responsible for the Cantor incident, notwithstansding that you acknowledge, in the very same paragraph, that tea partiers and libertarians are upset at the GOP. Frankly, I haven't got the foggiest why anyone on the left would have an axe to grind with Cantor right now.

What about the story that a congressman was called a racial slur and spat on. NO ONE can prove it. People in the crowd didn't hear or see it and most people commenting on the story say it was a planted protester. Tea Party'ers seem to be fairly tame protesters from what I've seen. I've never been to a meet but I've heard they don't condone the use of expletives in order to keep it clean for their children to attend. It seems odd that this incident occurred. Most say if it did happen it was likely a planted protester giving the media something to condemn the protests.

I'm not taking a stand here one way or the other but we've seen this behavior at some Republican events before.

Like I said I'm not taking a stand here one way or the other but why would a conservative shoot at this guys headquarters....especially since he appears to have fought the bill front and center.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...this bill isn't so much new as it has become the catalyst to problems that both sides of the aisle have caused and people are getting upset at. I speak only for myself here but I have for a decade now been upset that neither side of the aisle will stop the freeloading by people abusing the system.
 
Welcome to the end.

If I had a nickel for every time someone in the course of this country's history decried something as the end of society, I'd be a very rich man.

Here's a nice picture from 50 years ago that looks remarkably like what we're seeing today, just with a different issue: CLICK Guess what? Society's still here, and we're not living under communism. (And before anyone says "oh yes we are," I suggest you go talk to someone who's actually lived in a communist country.)

When our society does collapse, and it will eventually, the actual cause will be ignored and it will be blamed on all sorts of unrelated things that some misguided souls thought was evil for no logical reason.

--Mark
 
OftheDamned said:

This is all about control. If any of you actually believe that the people in Washington care if you are sick or well, then you live in a fantasy land. A day will come for each and every one of you when you actually understand what is happening in this country and what all of this actually means.
As Lynyrd Skynyrd says: "You got that right, you sure got that right!"
 
I got a question.. well actually two one for people on each side of this argument. We all know the healthcare system as it currently is has flaws so ....

1. For people that don't like this bill what do you think should have been done to make the our current healthcare system better than it was?
2. For people that do like the bill why do you think this is a good bill?

Please try answering the question without letting your ideological views or talking points answer the question for you.
 
I got a question.. well actually two one for people on each side of this argument. We all know the healthcare system as it currently is has flaws so ....

1. For people that don't like this bill what do you think should have been done to make the our current healthcare system better than it was?
2. For people that do like the bill why do you think this is a good bill?

Please try answering the question without letting your ideological views or talking points answer the question for you.

I've got some answers, but I have a question before I get to those:

What do you mean by ideological views? ..and even talking points..

so, if a 'talking point' is a legitimate perspective it is prohibited from the discussion because it has been 'called' a talking point?

And a couple of examples of just what talking points are would help me understand what you are aiming at..

ideological views? wouldn't this have a lot to do with how someone would answer a question?

Just looking for some clarification?

thanks,
Chief
 
I've got some answers, but I have a question before I get to those:

What do you mean by ideological views? ..and even talking points..

so, if a 'talking point' is a legitimate perspective it is prohibited from the discussion because it has been 'called' a talking point?

And a couple of examples of just what talking points are would help me understand what you are aiming at..

ideological views? wouldn't this have a lot to do with how someone would answer a question?

Just looking for some clarification?

thanks,
Chief

what i mean by talking points is political language that either democrats and republicans use. for instance leave out the talk about socialism, communism, and why the republicans now care about how much money is spent or what not. I just want to know what you as an individual person thinks should be done to fix the system. does that help?
 
Well this is right off the top of my head, ill add more later.

1.)nix the government option

2.) No fines for not having ins.

3.) Government employees ARE subject to these rules.

4.) Keep the pre existing condition clause, AND, extend it to children.
 
Well this is right off the top of my head, ill add more later.

1.)nix the government option

2.) No fines for not having ins.

3.) Government employees ARE subject to these rules.

4.) Keep the pre existing condition clause, AND, extend it to children.

These are good.. how would you fix the government option?
 
These are good.. how would you fix the government option?

Well the pre-existing conditions thing is a start, second off, offer substantial tax breaks to SMALL businesses (as it is harder for them than large business's) and better tax breaks for larger, for providing healthcare.

I swear I should run for office. Some of my solutions are quite good.

Like to fix our current economy and bring back jobs, well, we need to take a move out of the history book and start raising taxes on imported goods so it is no longer cheaper to outsource everything. Also, make it illegal to outsource call centers unless their business hub is in another country.
 
Well the pre-existing conditions thing is a start, second off, offer substantial tax breaks to SMALL businesses (as it is harder for them than large business's) and better tax breaks for larger, for providing healthcare.

I swear I should run for office. Some of my solutions are quite good.

Like to fix our current economy and bring back jobs, well, we need to take a move out of the history book and start raising taxes on imported goods so it is no longer cheaper to outsource everything. Also, make it illegal to outsource call centers unless their business hub is in another country.

These ideas are good ones. and I really have a problem with the outsourcing by companies too. I think any major corporation should have a health insurance plan for their employees. Instead of not offering their employees health insurance to cut cost and having them apply for state run insurance plans for example companies like Walmart, Best Buy and McDonald's to name a few, I think by offering them some form of tax break would for one cut the number of uninsured Americans and cut back on some of the deficits states rack up.


In a way the healthcare providers are still making out. Yeah they might not be raising our premiums but its only because they have so many more customers that are forced to use them..
 
you guys won't like this comment, but hey..

You all are straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic.

This detailed forum discussion on how to fix the health care system is like a doctor treating a hang nail on a foot with gangrene.

The problem is a more fundamental one. As much as you don't want to speak of ideological issues, that's what it comes down to..

WHAT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT? That's what it comes down to.. and then that question takes you right into the other area you didn't want to bring up..

When you talk about the role of government, you have to discuss a method of government.. uh oh, here comes the S word, (socialism).. :)

... but also in that discussion: fascism, democracy, representative (republic), communism, monarchy, etc, etc.

Our government is shifting away from a representative republic toward a more socialist state. It's not going to work out very well in the long run.

I understand this view I am expressing effectively ends the debate about the current "options" in repairing the health care system. ANYTHING coming out of Wash DC will NOT work.. They have drifted so far from what their role IS SUPPOSED TO BE. It is corrupt to the core.

At this point in our country, the decline is pretty much 'set in motion'.. and most people are so 'busy' entertaining themselves they don't see it coming.

Well, I could go on.. but it's getting late and this doesn't help your debate on the 'tweaks' that could 'fix' health care.. :)
 
Just to be clear for those who oppose reading, this bill isn't universal health care. So if you like coming off as having some semblance of a clue about what you are speaking of, ditch that notion.

I feel that many people who sling around words like socialist have zero clue what that term actually means and more importantly, what socialist goods and services we use every day here in the good ole US of A. So for those of you who are in the dark, here's a list of socialist goods and services that every American enjoys. If you are against socialism, put your money where your big mouth is and go ahead and STOP taking advantage of these socialist services:

-Social Security
-Medicare/Medicaid
-State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
-Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
-US Postal Service
-Roads and Highways
-Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
-US railway system
-Public subways and metro systems
-Public bus and lightrail systems
-Rest areas on highways
-sidewalks
-All government funded local and state projects
-public water and sewer services (goodbye socialist toilet, socialist shower, socialist dishwasher, socialist kitchen sink, socialist outdoor hose)
-public and state universities and colleges
-public primary and secondary schools
-Sesame Street (all of PBS in fact)
-publicly funded anti-drug use education
-public museums
-libraries
-public parks and beaches
-state and national parks
-public zoos
-unemployment insurance
-municipal garbage and recycling services
-treatment at any hospital or clinic that ever received funding from local, state, or the federal government (pretty much all of them)
-medical services and medications that were created or derived from any government grant or research funding (pretty much all of them)
-socialist byproducts of government institutions such as duct tape and velcro (you know, inventions of that Nazi-esque organization called NASA)
-Use of the internet, email, and networked computers (the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for computer networking. Go ahead and cancel your Android Forums account because by participating in this thread, you are enjoying the fruits of socialist services).
-foodstuffs, meats, produce, and crops that were grown with, fed with, raised with, or that contain inputs from crops grown with government subsidies.
-clothing made from crops (cotton) that were grown with or that contain inputs from government subsidies. You know, like that "Made in the USA" t-shirt you're probably wearing with OBAMANATION printed on it. You hypocrite.
-All anti-socialist veterans of the government run socialist military must forego their VA benefits and insist on paying for their own medical care.
-touring government buildings such as the Capitol.

In addition, those who denounce socialism should never visit the following “socialist” locations:
-Smithsonian museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History.,
-the socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments.
-the government operated Statue of Liberty.
-the grand canyon
-the socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorial
-the government run socialist propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery

Also, in keeping with an anti-socialism rhetoric, I would require you to protest the government funded and therefore socialist military of the United States.

What I want to know is where all you "fiscal conservatives" were when Bush passed his tax cuts for the rich and wealthy which cost this country 2 TRILLION dollars. This health care plan is a drop in the bucket compared to that. Republicans spend 2 trillion on a tax break for the rich, spend over 1 trillion on 2 wars (billions of which have been siphoned off to the private contractors who contribute to Republican campaigns) and another trillion give or take a few bucks on a prescription drug bill that has served to basically enrich the pharmaceutical companies.

And NOW Republicans decide to tighten the pocketbook? Give me a break. Any outcrying about this HC bill from the right is completely disingenuous. The Republican spending I outlined above makes the cost of this healthcare bill look like petty cash. So spare me the outrage.

Look. Medical expenses are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy in this country. This policy goes a long way to counter that. That means those of you who have or have loved ones who have cancer, will no longer accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses to keep you alive. And your insurance provider will have to commit a criminal act to drop you from their plan. I don't know about any of you but as a responsible husband and parent, part of my financial plan included having at least $20,000 in savings designated specifically for medical emergencies. Guess what? I can now (well after this bill goes into effect in 4 years) use that money to improve my house, buy a new car, take a much needed vacation, or put into my sons' college fund.


Do you understand that insurance companies are FOR PROFIT companies? Do you REALLY understand what that means? That if it's a choice between you and a dollar, the dollar will win? Is that what you're fighting for?

This bill will give people the peace of mind that if they lose their job, a very likely scenario in this recession, that they will still be able to obtain medical care.

32 million of our brothers and sisters who would not have have health care coverage will have it because of this bill.

150,000 people who would have died will live because of this bill.

Our deficit will be reduced by $138 billion over the next decade because of this bill, offsetting some of the damage Bush & Co. did.

Republicans have been consistently wrong about the effects of social programs and economic programs proposed by Democrats. Wrong on Social Security, wrong on Medicare, and wrong on Clinton's economic plans which resulted in the biggest surplus in American history which Bush, in 8 years, turned into the biggest deficit in American history.

Today is a great day for America.


I know what Socialist means but I think you are really lost on what this bill will cover. The 32 million number is a joke and even Obama has said that number includes illegals. How is there a "projected" reduction of $138 billion when we are spending a trillion and the damage you speak of by Bush was nothing compared to what Obama has spent. 150,000 people would have died without this bill??? Where would this number even come from, people don't die because they don't have health insurance. Yes insurance companies are for profit companies so why am I know forced to give them my money, my power to not give them business is being taken from me. Do you think now that insurance companies are forced to cover people they wouldn't normally as a business decision is going to cause your rates to go down? The way do deal with a company that does things you don't agree with is to do business elsewhere. There were many other things that could have been done without forcing people into this, like cracking down on Medicare/Medicaid fraud which by the way is a good part of the $138 billion you mentioned earlier, or how about letting me purchase my insurance from another state that has cheaper rates. Last you seem to have the knowledge that medical expenses are the #1 reason for bankruptcy which accounted for 62% of them but leave off the fact that 78% of those had insurance and those numbers came from a study released by Harvard not Fox News. I think you are biased and really aren't looking at the power you had to change the system before and just expect the government to fix your personal life.

Most of the services you listed as Socialist are not because they are taxes paid by all for a service not just money taken from the wealthy to provide for those without.
 
He's not the first second-in-command to release the F-bomb. It was disrespectful for Dick Cheney to drop it on the floor of the Senate.

Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity (washingtonpost.com)

Biden's amusing but not nearly the comedian fodder we had in Dan Quayle.


I thought it was funny, he was just talking like a regular guy and if you noticed Obama didn't seem surprised he said it. It's just a word, he was excited about what they accomplished although I used the same word for the opposite reason when I saw the bill passed.
 
you guys won't like this comment, but hey..

You all are straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic.

This detailed forum discussion on how to fix the health care system is like a doctor treating a hang nail on a foot with gangrene.

The problem is a more fundamental one. As much as you don't want to speak of ideological issues, that's what it comes down to..

WHAT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT? That's what it comes down to.. and then that question takes you right into the other area you didn't want to bring up..

When you talk about the role of government, you have to discuss a method of government.. uh oh, here comes the S word, (socialism).. :)

... but also in that discussion: fascism, democracy, representative (republic), communism, monarchy, etc, etc.

Our government is shifting away from a representative republic toward a more socialist state. It's not going to work out very well in the long run.

I understand this view I am expressing effectively ends the debate about the current "options" in repairing the health care system. ANYTHING coming out of Wash DC will NOT work.. They have drifted so far from what their role IS SUPPOSED TO BE. It is corrupt to the core.

At this point in our country, the decline is pretty much 'set in motion'.. and most people are so 'busy' entertaining themselves they don't see it coming.

Well, I could go on.. but it's getting late and this doesn't help your debate on the 'tweaks' that could 'fix' health care.. :)

Who says we are screwed. Instead of talk about revolts and resulting to violence over the passage of the bill many people are forgetting one thing that we still have a voice.. If we don't like what is happening in Washington then we voted the wrong people in office. But we can't be split because your are a republican and I am a democrat. I think IOWA is a republican supporter(I could be wrong) but I know a lot of democrats that agree with exactly what he said. I don't think anyone wants to be forced to have healthcare republican or democrat. My point is I don't think our views on making this country better is that far off but it is how are views are portrayed by the political parties that we associate with.

It probably is time that our government was restructured. Or we need a new political party that is actually about the people. I understand the deep disapproval for our government and yeah they are corrupt but this didn't just happen our government has been corrupt for decades. Democrats to Republicans are all about themselves and the people who put money in their pockets and both are guilty of fascism, democracy, representative (republic), communism, monarchy, etc, etc.
 
Who says we are screwed. Instead of talk about revolts and resulting to violence over the passage of the bill many people are forgetting one thing that we still have a voice.. If we don't like what is happening in Washington then we voted the wrong people in office. But we can't be split because your are a republican and I am a democrat. I think IOWA is a republican supporter(I could be wrong) but I know a lot of democrats that agree with exactly what he said. I don't think anyone wants to be forced to have healthcare republican or democrat. My point is I don't think our views on making this country better is that far off but it is how are views are portrayed by the political parties that we associate with.

It probably is time that our government was restructured. Or we need a new political party that is actually about the people. I understand the deep disapproval for our government and yeah they are corrupt but this didn't just happen our government has been corrupt for decades. Democrats to Republicans are all about themselves and the people who put money in their pockets and both are guilty of fascism, democracy, representative (republic), communism, monarchy, etc, etc.

Win.
 
Who says we are screwed. Instead of talk about revolts and resulting to violence over the passage of the bill many people are forgetting one thing that we still have a voice.. If we don't like what is happening in Washington then we voted the wrong people in office. But we can't be split because your are a republican and I am a democrat. I think IOWA is a republican supporter(I could be wrong) but I know a lot of democrats that agree with exactly what he said. I don't think anyone wants to be forced to have healthcare republican or democrat. My point is I don't think our views on making this country better is that far off but it is how are views are portrayed by the political parties that we associate with.

It probably is time that our government was restructured. Or we need a new political party that is actually about the people. I understand the deep disapproval for our government and yeah they are corrupt but this didn't just happen our government has been corrupt for decades. Democrats to Republicans are all about themselves and the people who put money in their pockets and both are guilty of fascism, democracy, representative (republic), communism, monarchy, etc, etc.

I agree. I lean republican but they haven't exactly been my voice either. So I call myself Libertarian, though I'm not really that either. This works out good when politics are being discussed as most people like to bring up failures of past presidencies to justify the failures of the current president. In the end it's not really the presidents fault as much as much as it's the people who vote that have no clue who they are voting for beyond the rhetoric that spews forth from the mouth of politicians. It's one thing to have done your research and come to a conclusion that is difference then mine. It's another thing to vote and never done any research beyond what your buddy/parents/guy at the bar tells you.

Also voting isn't confined to the presidential elections every 4 years. It starts in your state with local politicians...you know the ones that are almost never to blame for the presidents bad decisions. Fact is the president couldn't have passed this bill without failures on the state level called senators and congressman.
 
The 32 million number is a joke and even Obama has said that number includes illegals.

Immigration status doesn't factor into it. ERs can't turn uninsured illegals away under EMTALA any more than they can turn away an uninsured citizen. Both will have the same problems, the cost of treatment will be the same and it will still add to what's being passed on to paying customers. Unless we turn our hospitals into INS agents and see that illegals don't get treatment, they should be counted because they're going to continue having an impact.

Do you think now that insurance companies are forced to cover people they wouldn't normally as a business decision is going to cause your rates to go down?
There's no "now" about it. Insurance companies have been required to do just that ever since HIPAA was enacted in 1996 (by a Congress with Republican majorities in both houses, I might add). HIPAA prevents insurance companies from denying coverage to individuals who become part of a group policy. That means if my company hires someone who's in exceptionally poor health, our health insurer is required to cover them.

So we've been at this for 14 years and the insurance industry hasn't collapsed despite dire predictions. Of course, my rates haven't gone down, either.

...or how about letting me purchase my insurance from another state that has cheaper rates.
If we allow the entire pool the freedom to buy insurance in any state, a lot of people will flock to states where the rates are lowest. That will change the risk profile in those states for the worse and the rates will go up to compensate for it. I'm not saying we shouldn't dissolve state lines for insurance purposes, but there will be price consequences if we do.

Last you seem to have the knowledge that medical expenses are the #1 reason for bankruptcy which accounted for 62% of them but leave off the fact that 78% of those had insurance...
If you take that into account and do the math, it means nearly half (48%) of American personal bankruptcies were caused by people's health insurance not covering their expenses. If you ask me, the only thing that proves is that health insurance in this country is only insurance until you actually need it to cover something.

Most of the services you listed as Socialist are not because they are taxes paid by all for a service not just money taken from the wealthy to provide for those without.
According to figures provided by the IRS, 45.6 million filers -- essentially a third of them -- have no tax liability after credits and deductions. I, on the other hand, have a pretty hefty tax liability. That means anything paid for with tax dollars I paid in are being used to benefit those who paid nothing. How is that not taking money from the wealthy to provide for those without?

--Mark
 
Immigration status doesn't factor into it. ERs can't turn uninsured illegals away under EMTALA any more than they can turn away an uninsured citizen. Both will have the same problems, the cost of treatment will be the same and it will still add to what's being passed on to paying customers. Unless we turn our hospitals into INS agents and see that illegals don't get treatment, they should be counted because they're going to continue having an impact.

There's no "now" about it. Insurance companies have been required to do just that ever since HIPAA was enacted in 1996 (by a Congress with Republican majorities in both houses, I might add). HIPAA prevents insurance companies from denying coverage to individuals who become part of a group policy. That means if my company hires someone who's in exceptionally poor health, our health insurer is required to cover them.

So we've been at this for 14 years and the insurance industry hasn't collapsed despite dire predictions. Of course, my rates haven't gone down, either.

If we allow the entire pool the freedom to buy insurance in any state, a lot of people will flock to states where the rates are lowest. That will change the risk profile in those states for the worse and the rates will go up to compensate for it. I'm not saying we shouldn't dissolve state lines for insurance purposes, but there will be price consequences if we do.

If you take that into account and do the math, it means nearly half (48%) of American personal bankruptcies were caused by people's health insurance not covering their expenses. If you ask me, the only thing that proves is that health insurance in this country is only insurance until you actually need it to cover something.

According to figures provided by the IRS, 45.6 million filers -- essentially a third of them -- have no tax liability after credits and deductions. I, on the other hand, have a pretty hefty tax liability. That means anything paid for with tax dollars I paid in are being used to benefit those who paid nothing. How is that not taking money from the wealthy to provide for those without?

--Mark
1)Immigration status does factor into the numbers since they are trying to deceive us with saying 32 million are going to be covered when they have said this bill will not cover illegals, so the real cost is 1 trillion for about half of the 32 million and the coverage really doesn't take place until 2014.

2)So your rates HAVE GONE UP by forcing them to cover people that are going to cause them to lose money, this is proof government interference doesn't mean they can fix the issue.

3)Yes people will go to the cheaper states which will cause the more expensive states to find ways to lower their rates which means people will be more likely to end up getting it locally, I guess that would be the American people solving the problem instead of asking the government to save them.

4)It proves having insurance is not the answer affordable medical care is since having insurance did not prevent the majority from going bankrupt.

5)I agree that the current tax system favors the poor but you will also not hear an aruement that we need to change it. I was making refrence to all the services he mentioned that are paid for with local or city taxes that are paid through property taxes which even end up getting paid for by renters since the landlord is taking them into consideration.
 
Notice the date when this takes full effect and the penalties start "2014"
why thats after the next presidential election (I bet thier hopeing all the lemmings will have forgotten by then). Romney (a republican governor at the time) did the same here in MA, after he enacted his version of free healthcare Ins., he beat feet for the presidential election before it was implemented, leaving the next Governor (Deval, a Dem) a real mess that will probably not get him reelected.
Makes ya wonder.
I'm not going to go into all the ways they have raised taxes and state fees trying to pay for this bill, just pisses me off!
 
Back
Top Bottom