Help looking for a newbie android guide (expecting specific explanations)

[sh4dow]

hello,

since i'm about to get a samsung captivate, i spent the last four days reading about all kinds of tools, custom roms and whatnot but am still often confused as hell and can't piece it all together.

i could of course google random beginner's guides for android but those rarely cover things like:

what does "push" mean?
why would you have to "push" "cwr" with "odin"? what does that exactly do? i know that cwr is a stock recovery replacement and that odin is the stock rom but... what is "pushing with odin"? using its recovery mode to load cwr? but that can't be it because it was about permanently installing cwr which... also seems weird to me because of an issue i'll describe a bit below.
why is it that even though kernels are included in custom roms (are they? that's what i understood), you can flash them separately? won't that cause issues?
why does it sometimes say that cwr is always run temporarily while in other places, it says that it replaces stock recovery permanently? or did i misinterpret something?

i've been over so many threads and articles, reading "push this", "flash that" and i have yet to come across something that explains what these things actually do, how the different elements work together, what is replaced by what, how can you get rid of it again, etc.. and i'm not a fan of just randomly trying out stuff on a phone that cost me more than... really anything i've bought in the last 12 months.

 

[DaNaRkI]

Most ppl will tell you, "if you don't know then learn on your own, or don't even think of flashing a custom ROM to your phone, you'll just brick it and cry" I say "XDA, and a lot of free time is your best bet."

what does "push" mean?

to force, as in not give the phone any options or control.

why would you have to "push" "cwr" with "odin"?

Because you can't change something like the boot loader internally from the phone. The boot loader is the very first piece of the phone that starts running when you turn it on; writing over it while it's running will cause a crash and an incomplete write of the new files. Thus your boot is corrupted and will cause a "boot loop" or a blank screen.

what does that exactly do?

To better explain, it will forcefully write the new software to the phone writing over anything that is there no matter what. Since odin is outside the phone it can start to write and continue regardless of what the phone tries to do. So even if the phone crashes odin continues to write what it wants. When all is said and done it -should- run fine. If not you got corrupted files that cause a👎 error/glitch/crash/brick or boot loop.. You'll have to try again.

i know that cwr is a stock recovery replacement and that odin is the stock rom but...

Odin is NOT a ROM, it is a program for your computer.

what is "pushing with odin"?

I answered that above.

using its recovery mode to load cwr? but that can't be it because it was about permanently installing cwr which... also seems weird to me because of an issue i'll describe a bit below.

recovery mode is one of the abilities of odin, this is a little different then the in-phone recover mode.

why is it that even though kernels are included in custom roms (are they? that's what i understood), you can flash them separately? won't that cause issues?

Yes ROMs have kernels that the developers have chosen to pair them with. Each kernel is written differently so some individuals have a preferred kernel, but also like the customization a developer did to the OS. Yes, not all kernels and ROMs are compatible, tho I'm not entirely sure what happens when you try to run the incompatibles

why does it sometimes say that cwr is always run temporarily while in other places, it says that it replaces stock recovery permanently? or did i misinterpret something?

This I'm not 100% on, but cwr does replace the stock boot loader, which really is NOT a requirement for flashing ROMs. To my knowledge Samsung has never released the coding for the stock boot loader, so once you change to crw there is NO going back. This piece of software in the phone is untouched by a "factory recovery" because it is what runs the factory recovery.

i've been over so many threads and articles, reading "push this", "flash that" and i have yet to come across something that explains what these things actually do, how the different elements work together, what is replaced by what, how can you get rid of it again, etc.. and i'm not a fan of just randomly trying out stuff on a phone that cost me more than... really anything i've bought in the last 12 months.

Hopefully you'll have a better idea after reading all that I've covered. BUT, if your not a fan of such then why the hell are you looking at topics about ROMs and flashing code. 90% of people know even less about such then you appear to and are fully content if not happy with their phones. To be fully honest alot (if not most) of the people who talk so much about ROMs and changing them don't actually understand whats really being done. I don't know the details, but I've know computers for a long time and know the majority of what's being done. Thus I don't and won't flash anything until the phone is old enough that Samsung says they won't support it any more. Theres generally no reason to.

 

[lunatic59]

The answers to most everything you asked can be found here FAQ - CapFAQ

 

[sh4dow]

first of all, thanks a lot for answering these questions! they were just the first that came to my mind and should only have been examples but it's fantastic to have gotten the answers directly

Most ppl will tell you, "if you don't know then learn on your own, or don't even think of flashing a custom ROM to your phone, you'll just brick it and cry"

yeah... mostly idiots who i'm sure have NEVER read docs written by somebody else. sure there are skilled programmers out there who figure out things by looking at the source code but that's probably some 5% or so of the community.

Because you can't change something like the boot loader internally from the phone. The boot loader is the very first piece of the phone that starts running when you turn it on; writing over it while it's running will cause a crash and an incomplete write of the new files. Thus your boot is corrupted and will cause a "boot loop" or a blank screen.

i see... so i assume when you e.g. let rom manager install crw, it'll simply reboot the phone and set commands that makes the phone go right into recovery and install crw before the bootloader even loads?

Yes ROMs have kernels that the developers have chosen to pair them with. Each kernel is written differently so some individuals have a preferred kernel, but also like the customization a developer did to the OS. Yes, not all kernels and ROMs are compatible, tho I'm not entirely sure what happens when you try to run the incompatibles

hm... that just makes me wonder whether i wouldn't be better off just replacing the kernel (to speedmod) and launcher but sticking with froyo instead of using cognition, which allegedly doesn't take well to speedmod kernel.

This I'm not 100% on, but cwr does replace the stock boot loader, which really is NOT a requirement for flashing ROMs. To my knowledge Samsung has never released the coding for the stock boot loader, so once you change to crw there is NO going back.

i wouldn't be too sure about that because if you can install cwr from the stock recovery that means you can probably also install anything from cwr (after all, it's supposed to extend functionality, not reduce it). and somebody is bound to have acquired an image of the stock recovery app somehow.

Hopefully you'll have a better idea after reading all that I've covered. BUT, if your not a fan of such then why the hell are you looking at topics about ROMs and flashing code.

well... what do topics about ROMs and flashing code have to do with "just randomly trying out stuff"? i precisely look at such topics so i can learn how things work, in order to take full advantage of the device i bought and know how to do so safely. in harsh contrast to just running this and that without being aware of possible risks and what those things do.

90% of people know even less about such then you appear to

as i should, having studied IT & related things for over five years and having programmed one of the first e-mail clients for cell phones ever.
but i've never even touched an android device (and still don't have the phone), am no linux user (just know some basics) and am now just trying to fill my head with all essential information about the whole system so that i can use it efficiently once i actually receive my phone. IMO little is worse than having a great new phone and then it's mostly lying around for days with all the default stuff because you still have to read about all kinds of shit.

and are fully content if not happy with their phones. To be fully honest a lot (if not most) of the people who talk so much about ROMs and changing them don't actually understand whats really being done. I don't know the details, but I've know computers for a long time and know the majority of what's being done.

well, it's usually not necessary or productive to know everything.
unless you want to actually code mods yourself, obviously. but when it comes to android, i have no such aspirations. knowledgeable user is all i want to be.

Thus I don't and won't flash anything until the phone is old enough that Samsung says they won't support it any more.

huh... now that would lead me to ask why you even bothered to learn so much about all the ways you can modify phones if you don't even want to

Theres generally no reason to.

really... laggy interface and games and long boot are no reason? and e.g. about speedmod kernel it is said to be more stable than the stock and use less battery. the latter of which a lot of people moan about regarding the captivate.
and these are just the main reasons i see. they might not be reasons for you but i think a lot of people want to get the most out of their often rather expensive device - hence the community being so big. and i'm no different.

 

[sh4dow]

The answers to most everything you asked can be found here FAQ - CapFAQ

oh wow, that looks awesome! gonna have a lot to read on the weekend
thanks!

 

[DaNaRkI]

When I read

i'm not a fan of just randomly trying out stuff on a phone that cost me more than... really anything i've bought in the last 12 months.

and all the ""s you had been using, it gave me the impression that you were a hung up on terms and more confused about the entire topic then you are. So all I can say is "I read that wrong..."

I know so much (or far to little IMO) because from what I've seen manufacturers seem to only support an android phone (OS wise) for a lil over a year. This phone came out in July 2010 so by now it's round the half way point of that average. This will be my main phone long past the likely hood of Samsung still caring about it. So to prepare for when that happens I read into ROMs from time to time.
Also, this is the first smartphone I've had so I'm a lil more interested in it then usual.

 

[sh4dow]

but if you're fine with the default OS now, why would you suddenly start caring once samsung "officially" drops support? if there are no reasons for you to mod your phone now, why would there be some half a year or three years from now?

as for it being your first smartphone: one more reason why i don't really understand why you don't mod it, especially if you know so much already. first thing i did when i got my iphone (*spit*) was jailbreak it because of all the great things one could only do after having done that. though i suppose stock android might be nowhere near as restrictive as stock ios - less reason for modding anything.

 

[DaNaRkI]

True, most likely I'll dump stock before the phone gets "old." I won't yet because I'm still in the process of learning the the OS and things like why any given action is done (tho not the how, no interests in programing). At the very least until I have a better understanding of the phones kernel and modem, as at this point in time they are just vague references to me (but that what XDA is for)

I will then, for a rather simple reason: if/when a new OS comes out but the phone is no longer supported how will I get it? This is the 6th phone I've ever had, of the all the previous only one ever had an OS update. So, I don't understand the obsession ppl have of always wanting the newest OS ASAP, thus not having 2.3.3 doesn't bother me in the least.

In the mean time I'll give Samsung the benefit of the doubt. Also, my phone so far has not shown any of the major flaws that push ppl to jump to roms; "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Lastly, is that I have a very low tendency to modify things I own, I buy it because I want it for what it is then and there. The more I can do with it the more I like it, but I'm still very happy with it for what it originally was.

 

[sh4dow]

True, most likely I'll dump stock before the phone gets "old." I won't yet because I'm still in the process of learning the the OS and things like why any given action is done (tho not the how, no interests in programing). At the very least until I have a better understanding of the phones kernel and modem, as at this point in time they are just vague references to me (but that what XDA is for)

why do you care about kernel and modem? unless you want to modify them, i don't see why they matter. unless of course you want to flash the kernel separately and you need to know about incompatibilities...

I will then, for a rather simple reason: if/when a new OS comes out but the phone is no longer supported how will I get it? This is the 6th phone I've ever had, of the all the previous only one ever had an OS update. So, I don't understand the obsession ppl have of always wanting the newest OS ASAP, thus not having 2.3.3 doesn't bother me in the least.

exactly... so why would you ever?
unless app support for froyo becomes bad... which is probably gonna take a while.
personally, i like to stay up to date because usually when there are is an update available, it includes great new features and performance/security upgrades. and if it doesn't, you'll hear the community scream out in terror anyway

In the mean time I'll give Samsung the benefit of the doubt. Also, my phone so far has not shown any of the major flaws that push ppl to jump to roms; "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Lastly, is that I have a very low tendency to modify things I own, I buy it because I want it for what it is then and there. The more I can do with it the more I like it, but I'm still very happy with it for what it originally was.

heh... you wouldn't get very far with a computer with that approach
i kind of get that from a... traditional point of view. but the thing is - cell phones aren't what they used to be. this will effectively be my third (not counting the iphone because i gave up on that very early) cell phone in the past 12 years. i never saw a reason to upgrade because i didn't need all those "cool new features" like mms (got email), like bad cameras (got an SLR), etc.. but when smart phones became affordable and were more small computers than phones, my attitude changed. and i don't see the captivate as just a phone. more like a mini-laptop with calling abilities...

 

[DaNaRkI]

heh... you wouldn't get very far with a computer with that approach

Actually , a few years ago in trying to keep up with computers and the ever changing hardware scene is in large part to why I feel and act the way I do now.

As to kernels and modems, until I know more of what they do I'ed really rather not touch them. Since we all know phones (and anything that has "firmware") can get very cranky when ppl mess with those parts.

On a side note... I might have stupidly installed a bad app, and even after removing it the phone is still acting a lil odd. So, I might be joining the ROM crowd sooner then I expected ...

 

[sh4dow]

Actually , a few years ago in trying to keep up with computers and the ever changing hardware scene is in large part to why I feel and act the way I do now.

ah... but i think hardware is a totally different issue. because optimizing performance, stability and look of something by modding the software doesn't cost you anything. unless of course you break something but... that's going back to the point why you and me spend so much time reading threads about everything related to flashing

As to kernels and modems, until I know more of what they do I'ed really rather not touch them. Since we all know phones (and anything that has "firmware") can get very cranky when ppl mess with those parts.

well - that's what backups are for
and i've btw read a lot about crw by now and it definitely does NOT replace the stock recovery. as i see it, it used to at some point but the current version only gets loaded on demand. still unsure how one initiates that demand though. i've read both that you can initiate it through rom manager but also that as long as you have the crw update.zip on your sd-card, it launches instead of the stock recovery - but after all these hours spent reading, i still don't know how update.zip works. one of the few things i still have to figure out.

On a side note... I might have stupidly installed a bad app, and even after removing it the phone is still acting a lil odd. So, I might be joining the ROM crowd sooner then I expected ...

or you could simply do stock recovery?

 

[sh4dow]

one thing i can't find in the FAQ and is really a bitch to google for is: what exactly does usb debugging do?

i only find stuff on HOW to activate it or WHEN you have to do it. but never why and what features that exactly provides. what i've read so far leads me to believe that you need it (aside from the obvious developing purposes) to be able to use adb - is that correct?

[edit]
and with some of the stuff in the faq, i'm wondering whether it's right.
for instance, i have read multiple times that nandroid backups EVERYTHING internal. bootloader, kernel, OS, data (proof for that in the screenshots here). yet, in the faq, it says:

"There are 4 parts to your phone; the Build, kernel, modem and recovery module. Clockwork only backs up the build, so you cannot restore your phone with Clockwork"
http://capfaq.com/w/Backing_up_before_flashing_ROMs

and deceptive things. like:
"Please note that by flashing a ROM, you WILL 100% void the phone's warranty"
http://capfaq.com/w/Flashing_a_ROM_-_aka_Hacking_your_phone

nice overview but it's not great that it seems a lot of it has to be taken with a grain of salt and researched separately.
[/edit]

 

[DaNaRkI]

or you could simply do stock recovery?

Nah, running a stock recovery will blow away all the phone info and apps. If I've come across a problem that requires me to do that and "lose" everything then Samsung poorly designed/programmed something. Yes I know I can backup everything and thus actually lose nothing, but that requires root. The self imposed rule I have is, my phone is "all or nothing"; so pure stock or as far from it. Besides there are some mods and ROM tweaks that I'm looking forward to (like a better battery indicater )

but after all these hours spent reading, i still don't know how update.zip works. one of the few things i still have to figure out.

From my understanding of it "update.zip" is really just an generic file name that the boot loader will look to when you tell it to reinstall packages. Reason being, just about every mod out there says "rename to update.zip before putting the file on the phone." So what update.zip does will vary depending on what your looking to accomplish. Anything more specific then that I don't know.

ah... but i think hardware is a totally different issue. because optimizing performance, stability and look of something by modding the software doesn't cost you anything.

I don't code, I have no interest or desire to ever write a single line of code for anything. I like to understand what and why, but not every single tiny detail; I'll leave those details to someone more suited to the task.

one thing i can't find in the FAQ and is really a bitch to google for is: what exactly does usb debugging do?

This is only a guess, and educated one but still a guess. In short it opens the phone.
Debugging mode is not all to different from kies mode in that it gives the computer (more specifically specially written programs) access to the phone to write software directly into the system or read from it; in contrast to mass storage mode which is only access to the SD cards. Most likely the only real difference from kies is that debug does not force the "kies app" to open on USB connection. Since the computer has this extra access there is possibility to write over something important, thus the person handling the phone is made aware by the debugging icon in the notification bar, and a warning when setting the phone to enable debug mode.

what i've read so far leads me to believe that you need it (aside from the obvious developing purposes) to be able to use adb - is that correct?

I'm not sure what your referring to, adb?

 

[sh4dow]

Nah, running a stock recovery will blow away all the phone info and apps. If I've come across a problem that requires me to do that and "lose" everything then Samsung poorly designed/programmed something. Yes I know I can backup everything and thus actually lose nothing, but that requires root. The self imposed rule I have is, my phone is "all or nothing"; so pure stock or as far from it. Besides there are some mods and ROM tweaks that I'm looking forward to (like a better battery indicater )

LOL ah, so that's how it is

just about every mod out there says "rename to update.zip before putting the file on the phone." So what update.zip does will vary depending on what your looking to accomplish.

yes. but naming it update.zip is only important if you use stock recovery. stock reovery can only flash "update.zip", with clockwork you can select the zip-file

I don't code, I have no interest or desire to ever write a single line of code for anything. I like to understand what and why, but not every single tiny detail; I'll leave those details to someone more suited to the task.

didn't say anything about coding, think you may have misread

I'm not sure what your referring to, adb?

considering what you know it's really weird you've never heard about this... it's mentioned in every other thread i read (e.g. just yesterday once again: xda-developers - View Single Post - [MOD] STATUS BAR MOD'S 'Change the colour of your status bar---Trnsprnt Green Added )
anyway... it's a command line tool with which almost everything manual is done when you've got your phone hooked up. maybe most commonly backing up or installing applications but apparently in the past it was also used for rooting. before all those one click solutions appeared.
and if you activate it from the settings, it actually says it right there: "copy data between your computer and your device, install applications on your device without notification" - these things are done with adb. all (or at least most) other tools are just guis that use adb. at least with the tools i downloaded, there was always an adb.exe included.

 

[DaNaRkI]

didn't say anything about coding, think you may have misread

You had said: "by modding the software" Of which we had been talking about PC's and my current 'falling out' with them and trying to keep up with the best tech. I know of no ways of changing how PC software runs unless directly editing it, thus having to write code (with the exception of some games). If you had meant phones then you should have said so, hence my "confusion." Theres no way I'ed ever spend the time to change phone hardware because none of it is designed to be swapped (to my knowledge). Sure it's can be done, but you don't see phone CPUs or RAM sitting on shelves in Best Buy or any other place that phones or computers are soled.

considering what you know it's really weird you've never heard about this...

It's not that I didn't but I was not sure if you were talking about adb of the Android SDK or possibly something else with the same initials. I know of it well, but don't care for it because it's navigating a command prompt which starts to remind me of DOS...