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Malaysia Airlines tragedies

3 pieces of evidence point to jet's takeover

TRANSPONDER
One clue is that the plane's transponder - a signal system that identifies the plane to radar - was shut off about an hour into the flight...

ACARS
Another clue is that part of the Boeing 777's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was shut off...

GUIDED FLIGHT
The third indication is that that after the transponder was turned off and civilian radar lost track of the plane, Malaysian military radar was able to continue to track the plane as it turned west...
 
How do things work?

Why is it that you can switch off a transponder? (And this indirectly goes back to previous speculation in the press that a real-time black box is the answer.)

Without neglecting any data - complex turns, obvious navigation taking place, etc that I didn't mention - is it possible or reasonable that another explanation exists besides takeover or hijacking?

Let's ask a pilot -

http://www.askthepilot.com/malaysia-airlines-flight-370/

I recommend a careful reading of the above link, even though you may see some things there that you've already read elsewhere or in this thread.

If you're like me, you may conclude two things.

1. Anything is still possible, despite what the press is saying.

2. We don't know yet what happened, despite what the press is saying.

According to a pilot who knows how and why things work, this could be a hijacking.

And it could still be an accident.

I offer no opinion which is more likely.

Only that more than one reasonable explanation exists.

The culprit could be anything from sabotage to some kind of bizarre mechanical problem
Click to expand...
 
jefboyardee said:
3 pieces of evidence point to jet's takeover

TRANSPONDER
One clue is that the plane's transponder - a signal system that identifies the plane to radar - was shut off about an hour into the flight...

ACARS
Another clue is that part of the Boeing 777's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was shut off...

GUIDED FLIGHT
The third indication is that that after the transponder was turned off and civilian radar lost track of the plane, Malaysian military radar was able to continue to track the plane as it turned west...
Click to expand...

And that's entirely possible.

The expert cited by name in the link was previously with the NTSB and has evidently investigated other crashes.

It may be also interesting to note that, according to the same article, that named source is an expert in aircraft maintenance and that's why he was with the NTSB.

Not because he was a pilot or expert in in-flight operations.

Don't you find it interesting that all of the reports that are so sure about what happened are including officials (rhymes with politician, bureaucrat, and manager) and every sort of expert - police, intelligence, counterintelligence, psychologists, maintenance, radar, satellite, radio - in fact, everyone EXCEPT pilots?

I find that interesting.
 
No one here has mentioned the reports that the plane ascended and descended from above its normal ceiling, 45,000 feet, down to 23,000 feet - but that's being quoted as proof that the flight was hijacked.

Let's consider some options -

1. There was a struggle in the cockpit.

2. They were flying evasively and on-purpose.

3. There was an instrument failure and they were fighting to control the airplane.

4. There was a flight control failure and they were fighting to control the airplane. Flight control isn't mechanical cables to the wings, it's wires and motors. And engines.

5. Radar isn't a radio dish hooked up to analog display like old movies. It's radio, a bunch of computers, and operators. Computers screw up all of the time. Maybe the radar data are wrong.

6. The press exaggerated or lied about the accuracy of the altitude data. I've lost count of how often I've caught them lying.

There are four options that explain differently what the press says proves a takeover of some sort.

And I'm not even a pilot.

Sorry if this comes across as beating a dead horse.
 
EarlyMon said:
No one here has mentioned the reports that the plane ascended and descended from above its normal ceiling, 45,000 feet, down to 23,000 feet - but that's being quoted as proof that the flight was hijacked.

Let's consider some options -

1. There was a struggle in the cockpit.

2. They were flying evasively and on-purpose.

3. There was an instrument failure and they were fighting to control the airplane.

4. There was a flight control failure and they were fighting to control the airplane. Flight control isn't mechanical cables to the wings, it's wires and motors. And engines.

5. Radar isn't a radio dish hooked up to analog display like old movies. It's radio, a bunch of computers, and operators. Computers screw up all of the time. Maybe the radar data are wrong.

6. The press exaggerated or lied about the accuracy of the altitude data. I've lost count of how often I've caught them lying.

There are four options that explain differently what the press says proves a takeover of some sort.

And I'm not even a pilot.

Sorry if this comes across as beating a dead horse.
Click to expand...

Wait, how would they have gotten it up to 45,000? According to this, the 777's service ceiling is 43,100
 
Of course, nobody really knows what happened and we may never know, but the idea that whatever happened is the result of actions taken by people in the plane, presumably members of the crew, even more presumably members familiar with operating the plane and its controls... that's starting to make a sickening sense.

Is it possible that this plane will never be found?
 
palmtree5 said:
Wait, how would they have gotten it up to 45,000? According to this, the 777's service ceiling is 43,100
Click to expand...

I know right.

Maximum can exceed service ceiling depending on temperature, humidity, weight, momentum, whatever.

See also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceiling_(aircraft)

So - altitude that probably guarantees that the plane will stall followed by a rapid descent (and that's what the reports say, not me, "rapid descent") of just over 20,000 feet does not sound like crafty, piratey, joy-riding, hijack flying to me.

It sounds like something went terribly wrong to be above the service ceiling, they stalled and they dropped like a rock for two minutes before regaining control. Hence my scenarios 3 and 4 listed as examples.

Or it didn't happen, hence 5 and 6.

100% my opinion though.

The press is going with 1 or 2.

They could be right or wrong. Who knows?

jefboyardee said:
Of course, nobody really knows what happened and we may never know, but the idea that whatever happened is the result of actions taken by people in the plane, presumably members of the crew, even more presumably members familiar with operating the plane and its controls... that's starting to make a sickening sense.

Is it possible that this plane will never be found?
Click to expand...

Yep.

My heart goes out to the families and everyone in the industry.

I'm sure I'm not alone on that.
 
Can I ask which one was first transponder or ascars . cause the pilot that told the tower goodnight either gave them a clue or may have been testing to see if the air tower can identify them since they may have turned one off .
 
BRAINZ2013 said:
Can I ask which one was first transponder or ascars . cause the pilot that told the tower goodnight either gave them a clue or may have been testing to see if the air tower can identify them .
Click to expand...

First ACARS was switched off, if it was switched off.

Then, Malaysia air control told them that were leaving Malaysian air space and about to hand over to Vietnamese air traffic control.

The plane is reported to have either answered, "All right, good night," or, "Ok, good night."

The contact and response were basically standard procedure.

The transponder evidently stopped responding shortly after that (so it may have been switched off or to other modes per the earlier Ask The Pilot link or something else happened).

Somewhere after that point we have very confused reports of attempts by the Vietnamese to reach them on an emergency radio frequency, and possibly successful but with a garbled or mumbled response.

Everything is crazy from that point on.

The reports didn't get center stage attention and frankly cast a lot of doubt about who might have known what and when - depending on what one you want to believe. If you want to believe any of them.
 
Final words from jet came after systems shutdown

Authorities have said someone on board the plane first disabled one of its communications systems - the Aircraft and Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or ACARS - about 40 minutes after takeoff. The ACARS equipment sends information about the jet's engines and other data to the airline.

About 14 minutes later, the transponder that identifies the plane to commercial radar systems was also shut down. The fact that both systems went dark separately offered strong evidence that the plane's disappearance was deliberate.
 
jefboyardee said:
Final words from jet came after systems shutdown

Authorities have said someone on board the plane first disabled one of its communications systems - the Aircraft and Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or ACARS - about 40 minutes after takeoff. The ACARS equipment sends information about the jet's engines and other data to the airline.

About 14 minutes later, the transponder that identifies the plane to commercial radar systems was also shut down. The fact that both systems went dark separately offered strong evidence that the plane's disappearance was deliberate.
Click to expand...

Plane took off at 12:40 AM.

The route to the sea is around 20 minutes or so away.

Previous reports consistently set last contact at 1:20 AM.

Current reports put the transponder off by 1:30 AM.

So I think that article has an entirely different point of view than ACARS being shut down over land, as claimed by the Malaysians. Which is fine so far as it goes, I still maintain that all we know is that ACARS was on for one check in, not the next.

The press keeps saying, along with authorities, that there's strong evidence of a deliberate action.

There is.

It's also circumstantial evidence, unfortunately.

Here's a timeline where CNN says what they want.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-chronology/

We know that the voice comm happened before the transponder was off, it was the point of the conversation to verify position on the board by voice.

What's mysterious to CNN about the voice contact time has never been part of the mystery. The pilots didn't simply pick up the phone, say, "All right, good night," and then had ground control going, "Gee, I wonder why they called." Control called them.

CNN is also setting the time of military radar contact back to one in keeping with previous rumors, 2:40, and before independent review set it at 2:15.

Wtg, CNN, here's your prize, be sure to share it with everyone else who quotes you and muddies the waters some more.
funny-jackass-donkey-grinning-ass-goofy-animal-picture.jpg
 
EarlyMon said:
Plane took off at 12:40 AM.

The route to the sea is around 20 minutes or so away.

Previous reports consistently set last contact at 1:20 AM.

Current reports put the transponder off by 1:30 AM.

So I think that article has an entirely different point of view than ACARS being shut down over land, as claimed by the Malaysians. Which is fine so far as it goes, I still maintain that all we know is that ACARS was on for one check in, not the next.

The press keeps saying, along with authorities, that there's strong evidence of a deliberate action.

There is.

It's also circumstantial evidence, unfortunately.

Here's a timeline where CNN says what they want.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-chronology/

We know that the voice comm happened before the transponder was off, it was the point of the conversation to verify position on the board by voice.

What's mysterious to CNN about the voice contact time has never been part of the mystery. The pilots didn't simply pick up the phone, say, "All right, good night," and then had ground control going, "Gee, I wonder why they called." Control called them.

CNN is also setting the time of military radar contact back to one in keeping with previous rumors, 2:40, and before independent review set it at 2:15.

Wtg, CNN, here's your prize, be sure to share it with everyone else who quotes you and muddies the waters some more.
funny-jackass-donkey-grinning-ass-goofy-animal-picture.jpg
Click to expand...

Seems as though that's a summary of everything that's been coming out of the rumor mill being operated by the media circus...
 
I keep seeing reports about wild swings in elevation. How can they know the altitude but not the location of the plane, especially if the handshake pings or whatever they're calling them transmitted no data?
 
palmtree5 said:
Seems as though that's a summary of everything that's been coming out of the rumor mill being operated by the media circus...
Click to expand...

I believe the media just loves to hear themselves speak, and so they keep pumping out all the rumors and speculation. Also, let's face it, "dirty laundry" sells.

The actual information we have is limited, and more than one scenario will fit it. We don't know what actually happened, and may not know for quite some time.

I'm waiting for the report that they found the plane, and then we may get some answers.
 
Yes the temp. Would cause everyone to pass out . that's why they ask you to keep the mask on if that happens so you wont pass out. I have a question if the auto pilot was engaged and the plane is flying itself wouldn't that send data and speed and aircraft where about is . I am so lost how you build a aircraft and tell everyone how you can track it . and how you can turn off tracking devices . but dammm so funny how police cars and other things we have you can track and also have extra security for tracking . I think they should make something that will kick on if the transponder and acars system was to shut down alerting military radar so a team of f16 jets can check the where about are . this can be prevented if we use our BRAINZ
 
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