Next 4 Years Give or Take

[Bob Maxey]

Everything Obama wants to do will not work, as history clearly shows. So what do you think the next 4 years will look like?

Eventually, Obama's world will implode. Any guesses as to how much damage he will do? Any thought as to how much better we will be, if you believe Obama is the answer?

 

[jefboyardee]

It’s starting today, with Hillary failing to provide a reasonable defense of her part in the investigation of the Benghazi killings, specifically state’s insistence that it was the reaction to a youtube video.

 

[stusue]

Boggles the mind of someone outside the US how a country of FDR could have become the home of suck conservative extremists. You're becoming the land of every man for himself. Survival of the fittest. Sad to see actually.
In order to have success people have to be willing Nd able to work together as a team and look out for one another. Those ideas are now considered to be communism in America. It's a fundamentalism comparable to the religious extremists in other parts of the world. Truly sad.

 

[copestag]

In order to have success people have to be willing Nd able to work

if you ended your sentence right there you would have more accurately described the problem

 

[Speed Daemon]

Boggles the mind of someone outside the US how a country of FDR could have become the home of suck conservative extremists. You're becoming the land of every man for himself. Survival of the fittest. Sad to see actually.

It is sad to see people dooming themselves to repeat history. What I still can't figure out is how there are so many willing shills who will argue to their dying breath for a system that's going to destroy them too.

In order to have success people have to be willing Nd able to work together as a team and look out for one another. Those ideas are now considered to be communism in America. It's a fundamentalism comparable to the religious extremists in other parts of the world. Truly sad.

The whole reason why we're the United States of America (and not an asterisk in colonial history) is because the 13 freed colonies knew that they were better off cooperating for the greater good. If they had gone their separate ways, who would have won in 1812?

"Stupid is as stupid does." We might as well make it our national motto...

 

[jefboyardee]

The last four years, give or take, were brimming with conservative enthusiasm honed on replacing the current president. When that failed, more accurately when the GOP pushed the wrong guy up front, conservatives were thwarted. Now they’re riding in the back of the bus, just waiting for it to careen off a cliff.

Edit: mistaken link removed.

 

[copestag]

I want to make sure I understand what youre saying here....... dont want to put words in your mouth

youre stating that you believe conservative enthusiasm is on the decline...... and conservatives are quietly awaiting their demise....

and as an example you cite an article which states conservative audiences are actually increasing?

makes sense..... surely conservatism is dead

sounds a whole lot like that 'we have to spend money to save money' argument

 

[jefboyardee]

and as an example you cite an article which states conservative audiences are actually increasing?

My bad, thanks for pointing it out. I wanted to replace that mistake with the intended one, but then I didn

 

[chrlswltrs]

I honestly think there will be a total collapse of government. Obama can't stop spending money at the same time he encourages everyone to give up and become dependent on the government. The borrowed money is going to run out.

Then there is the fact that Obama is actively working to disarm citizens, arm the DHS with enough ammo and guns right now to be at war for 30yrs, and labeling patriotic Americans as extremists and terrorists. He has a kill list that he is the judge, jury, and executioner (ok, he just gives the order) and has used it to even kill US citizens and no one has the authority to challenge it.

America is in an all out downward spiral and Obama is leading the way. The next several years are going to be a very scary time, especially in a few more months when Obama and his cronies really get rolling.

 

[coco3133]

One doesn't not change the world. It is impossible.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I honestly think there will be a total collapse of government.

You think that the Federal government will collapse

 

[SiempreTuna]

I honestly think there will be a total collapse of government. Obama can't stop spending money at the same time he encourages everyone to give up and become dependent on the government. The borrowed money is going to run out.

You really need to stop listening to right wing radio nuts. They're nuts. They talk mindless nonsense that has zero basis in reality. In fact, exactly the sort of thing you said there. Exactly NONE of that is true or even remotely related to the truth.

We have been trying low tax, trickle down economics, de-regulated markets and all that right wing claptrap for the last 30 years and they have been a total, unmitigated failure. Unless you're one of the top 1% (remember them?). They are 10 times better off than they were a decade ago, everyone else is actually worse off. For the first time since the 30s.

Plus there was that little thing .. Couple of years back .. What was it? You remember? Oh yeah! the right wing deregulation BS coming within a nats scrotum of destroying the entire global economy.

Remember that?

All those rich republican 1%ers had to rescued BY THE POOR. Bankers and Wall Street were saved by the biggest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich in the whole of human history. Bush gave the banks 1 trillion dollars and didn't even ask for a receipt!

Then what did they do with the cash? Spent it lobbying their politicians to let them keep doing the exact same sh*t that caused that the problem and to stop any bail out for anyone else! While they CONTINUE to get bailouts EACH MONTH.

You know that quantitive easing? The billions of dollars the Fed prints each month? That ALL goes to banks. Every penny.

So basically, if you're a Republican, your buddies on Wall Street must get a stimulus / bail out each month but the rest of the country can suffer.

Obama getting elected was the entire world dodging a bullet.

 

[chrlswltrs]

SiempreTuna, ever heard of Greece? Do a little research and see what happens when the government continually spends more money that it has. And this is a recent example, not something that happend hundreds of years ago.

Redistribution of wealth is no way to run a country. When people work their way up the ladder by working hard they should not be punished for it. Why should such a large portion of income be taken just so that it can be handed to lazy asses who don't want to work for a living? It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.

After 8 yrs of Obama and his failed policy if the government hasn't completely collapsed and we are worse off than we were in 2008 will you still be blaming Bush???

 

[ElasticNinja]

SiempreTuna, ever heard of Greece? Do a little research and see what happens when the government continually spends more money that it has. And this is a recent example, not something that happend hundreds of years ago.

Greece is an example of what happens when you have a shitty tax base, a massive military, and shitty politicians.
The rest of Europe does not have the scale of problems it has, even in the worst countries, Ireland, Italy, UK, Spain, Portugal, reforms and changes are being made to sort things out. I might not agree with how the reforms are being done. But reforms are necessary. Governments with higher spending (Denmark, Finland, Sweden and NL), have undertaken the reforms before and have a stable tax base.

The US certainly has a spending problem. Money is thrown at everything, except in social benefits. However the military, education, healthcare etc, all simply have funding increased instead of reforms.

Redistribution of wealth is no way to run a country. When people work their way up the ladder by working hard they should not be punished for it. Why should such a large portion of income be taken just so that it can be handed to lazy asses who don't want to work for a living? It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.

Redistribution is the only way, as otherwise the poor become restless and overthrow the government. But seriously redistribution is much more economically efficient and better for society. Less crime, improved morale, more productive.

It is important that people are well fed, clothed, and housed. Everyone's children should be able to go to University (or some other form of Third level), if they are bright and ambitious enough. Massive loans shouldn't be necessary.

 

[chrlswltrs]

Greece is an example of what happens when you have a shitty tax base, a massive military, and shitty politicians.

Exactly what we have here in America right now

Redistribution is the only way, as otherwise the poor become restless and overthrow the government. But seriously redistribution is much more economically efficient and better for society. Less crime, improved morale, more productive.

It is important that people are well fed, clothed, and housed. Everyone's children should be able to go to University (or some other form of Third level), if they are bright and ambitious enough. Massive loans shouldn't be necessary.

Redistribution just demotivates people. There are millions of people perfectly happy living on welfare and letting the government take care of them because they can. They have no reason to try and get a job because they can just get paid to sit at home and do nothing.

The other side of that is the punishment of hard work. The harder you work and the higher you climb you are punished by the government taking a larger percentage of your income. How is that fair?? How does that encourage hard work to achieve "the American Dream"?? How does that make people want to keep their business in America and hire American workers when they can instead move overseas and not only pay workers less, but at the same time not be punished by the government for being successful???

Yes I agree everyone should have the opportunity to attend college without acquiring a massive debt, but that should not be subsidized by our tax money.

 

[Gmash]

For one thing, we're already better off than we were in 2008.

In Greece, a big part of their problem came from the so called austerity measures that were implemented. The same thing the Republicans are trying to force on America now. Talk about not learning lessons.

 

[chrlswltrs]

For one thing, we're already better off than we were in 2008.

:stupid::stupid::hmmmm::hmmmm:

The deficit has skyrocketed, unemployment rate is just as high (except millions have quit looking for work so they don't count anymore), everyone that is working just had their taxes raised with more tax hikes already written into law (Obamacare), gas and food prices are higher, millions more people are now in poverty, on food stamps, and on welfare than in 2008. The US credit rating has been downgraded twice since 2008 (NEVER happened before Obama). The country is being divided by Obama and his encouragement of class warfare and pissing on the constitution.

Your right, we are much better off...

 

[ElasticNinja]

Yes I agree everyone should have the opportunity to attend college without acquiring a massive debt, but that should not be subsidized by our tax money.

It does require subsidisation though, so think about that.

If not for redistribution you would probably be dead by now.

For one thing, we're already better off than we were in 2008.

In Greece, a big part of their problem came from the so called austerity measures that were implemented. The same thing the Republicans are trying to force on America now. Talk about not learning lessons.

Greece's problem has been badly planned austerity more than anything. Other states with decent political systems have managed things much better. That said now is not the time for large scale austerity, although I would argue that reforms, and certain cuts should be started now. Lots and lots of reports are needed to examine everything.

 

[chrlswltrs]

For those that support Socialism and Obama's method of destroying the economy, please disprove these statements. I guarantee you can not.

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

 

[ElasticNinja]

For those that support Socialism

The US has never been anywhere near socialist, even during WWII. You do not know, or understand, what socialism is. Socialism is when the government owns the steel mills and the car industry.

Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Wikipedia article is fairly good. Put a few minutes of your time to good use and examine it.

Now, you think I am socialist. Because you fail to grasp what socialism really is. I think that Capitalism is the least worst system, but must be adequately regulated and managed according to evidence and the needs of society. One must note that socialist societies often fail to give the poor the same living standards as far-capitalist ones such as the US, because they are not as productive. Yet societies with capitalism that is more managed than the US, provide better living standards with less.

Obama's method of destroying the economy

Destroying the economy sounds like an odd plan. I don't agree with Obama's plan, there is not enough tax rises, or enough targeted cuts. Is this his fault? Perhaps he could work harder, I don't know. Federal politics in the US is shit, and that is due to a broken system. I can't attribute the bulk of the blame to a single man, for not taking bullish enough action.

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

I agree, as you can see by my point on the USSR.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

I would argue that everyone receives something in a place with functioning government. It may not be monetary, it may not even be services like healthcare or education for their children. But they will have received in the past. Furthermore, they get safety, peace of mind, the ability to try and achieve what they can. The ability to live their lives to the fullest.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

This is logical, but stopping this from happening means no more government, and death for most people and shitty lives for the rest.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

You can divide it by 0.5.

Checkmate theists etc.

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

That doesn't really happen though. Lack of a functioning society might cause that. Most European nations are more solid than 100 years ago these days, I think our nations are doing fine, even though the nation-state is sliding into irrelevance.

 

[SiempreTuna]

For those that support Socialism and Obama's method of destroying the economy, please disprove these statements. I guarantee you can not.

Err .. they're the same platitude expressed in 5 very slightly different ways. And I guarantee I can:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity

Nobody's legislating anybody out of prosperity. The gap between rich and poor is ten times greater than it was even under Reagan. The problem now is that the rich are TOO rich.

Why is that a problem? Because a RECESSION is when spending in the economy is too low. The rich don't - possibly, can't: what do you spend that extra mill on? - spend the extra income they now receive. It ends up in accounts in Bermuda, not benefitting the economy. If you pass that money to the poor, they have to spend it, thereby getting the economy moving.

It's basic economics.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

US unemployment is around is around 7%, so actually 11 people are working to help the other person. And when the unemployment person spends the money, it indirectly helps those 11 people by stimulating the economy - and keeping them in jobs.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

Yes they can. They're doing it now. It's called Quantitive Easing. The only problem with it is all the money is going to banks - i.e. rich people.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

Yes you can: see the answer to 1. Getting the economy moving means you create more wealth not less. The alternative is giving a bigger and bigger cut of less and less to fewer people (that means LESS wealth, in case you're missing the point there)

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Again, unemployment is 7%. Half would be 50%. You're nowhere near the beginning of the end of anything.

I know it's real easy and real tempting to demonise people when things aren't going well, but while it may make you feel better, all it does it take attention away from the real problem.

Sure, there are people who take advantage, but the majority of people who are out of work are not there by choice. Making their lives even more miserable and their chances of finding work even lower (by NOT stimulating the economy as you advocate) doesn't help anyone.

Not even you.

 

[chrlswltrs]

Again, unemployment is 7%. Half would be 50%. You're nowhere near the beginning of the end of anything.

You do realize the "unemployment rate" only takes into account those recently unemployed and still looking for work right? It does not include welfare recipients, homeless, incarcerated, etc. it also does not include those working part time, even 1 hour a week, and still receiving support from the government because they can't or wont find a job to support themselves. Nor does it include all the illegal aliens receiving benefits (housing, welfare, food stamps, free education) because they can't even legally look for work.

The unemployment rate is a joke if you are looking for any actual figures in this type of economy. When the economy is good then it works fine because it doesn't take 6+ months to find a decent job.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Nobody's legislating anybody out of prosperity. The gap between rich and poor is ten times greater than it was even under Reagan. The problem now is that the rich are TOO rich.

So you think there should be limits set on how much you can make or how far you can go in life? Never mind, of course you do.

Bear in mind that the top fifty or so percent pay for the bottom half that pay zero federal income taxes. Tell people we will limit how much you can make and progress slows. Also, there is less tax revenue to support the poor that in many cases, have a free ride.

There are more millionaires, multi-millionaires and billionaires than ever before. This is a good thing. I think the reason many people can't find good jobs is because employers demand more and many employees are simply not worth the money they want. Hell, I help put people off the payroll by changing how a company manufacturers goods.

Companies simply expect more and some people cannot rise to the occasion. They often lack essential skills.

To return to your statement . . . no, we let people make as much as they want and when we stop punishing the rich for a bunch of BS reasons, we let them prosper. Prosperity flows downhill.

 

[Bob Maxey]

For those that support Socialism and Obama's method of destroying the economy, please disprove these statements. I guarantee you can not.

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Not sure I disagree with anything you posted. Sad fact is, the rich care for the poor that largely do not contribute to the wealth of the nation. As I have said and said and said again, the top 50% or more pay for the bottom half that pay no fed tax.

When you take away the possibility of getting rich, people tend to stop wanting to invest time and money into a business that could help employ people.

That said, it is a dirty little secret nobody will admit that workers are a necessarily evil. We need them to build widgets. We do not start businesses to provide jobs; we start businesses to build a better life for ourselves and our families.

 

[Bob Maxey]

The deficit has skyrocketed, unemployment rate is just as high (except millions have quit looking for work so they don't count anymore),

Interesting that our president was wildly applauded when he told us that due to his efforts, unemployment claims have declined. What he avoided saying is this was largely due to benefits running out.

Sure, there is a decline if there is no cash left over.

What I find interesting is here in SLC, your food stamp benefits are now automatically added to your card and you no longer need to call the Department of Workforce Services to renew your claim or go through a one on one interview as was once the case.

So if you are careful, you now have a never ending source of food as close as your EBT card and unless you call DWS, it might never end.