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no disaster relief without spending cuts?

Bob Maxey said:
You know . . . before you say we need to change the tax code, you might want to do a little self-education. You will find that the bottom 50% or so do not pay a cent in federal income taxes. And you will discover that the very top of the heap pay far more than their share. The top one percent carry much of the burden.

And those people generally create jobs. I have never, ever been hired by the poor.

You do not want the rules changed so it is fair. If it were fair, the poor would pay for the services they now get for free.
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Yep, the burden of the rich.

Some companies pay their CEOs more than Uncle Sam, study says - The Washington Post

 
I'm late to this debate but a phrase commonly thrown around regarding taxation has always irked me.

When people like President Obama and other politicians utter the words "the rich/wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes", what exactly is fair? Who decides what is fair?

I am not wealthy and I am not Republican so don't think I am against raising taxes or cutting taxes but people need to be clear on this. I don't know what a fair share is for wealthier Americans to pay and I also don't think successful people should necessarily have to pay more, just because they are successful and make more money. I understand they will pay more in taxes because they have more income that can be taxed but there has to be a line somewhere.

To this point I've enjoyed the spirited debate from all involved and that it has remained above board. Carry on...
 
Heres the thing, IF they were at least taxed the same as me I wouldnt have much of a problem. But when you throw in the various write offs, loopholes, and plain old moving your money off shore to avoid paying any tax I have a problem when their effective tax rate is now lower than mine.
 
Potvin63 said:
I'm late to this debate but a phrase commonly thrown around regarding taxation has always irked me.

When people like President Obama and other politicians utter the words "the rich/wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes", what exactly is fair? Who decides what is fair?
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Apparently, the cutoff point is $250,000.00. At that level or above, you are wealthy. And nobody should decide if reaching or exceeding the often touted, "American Dream" is fair or unfair.

Those wealthy fools that you hear screaming about how they want to pay more in taxes, really do not mean it. If they want to pay more, all they need to do is write a check to the General Fund and send it to Washington, DC.

What is "fair" is following the law. We should not be discussing what is fair; rather, what is legally required is all that matters. If the tax laws say you must pay X amount, that is what you should pay. Nothing more. And mind you, the wealthy do pay more taxes than most taxpayers. They build business and increase the number of jobs. They give money to needy causes, and they contribute - often quietly - to any number of causes as well.

The bottom 48-50% do not pay any federal taxes, yet many of them absorb services and goods that tax payers pay for. And in some cases, the "poor" eventually solve their problems and become successful. This happens in the United States and almost nowhere else.

If those politicians and rappers and Hollywood luminaries were actually taxed at the 40% or 50% they (some) think is fair (for everyone else, not them) they would be quite upset. Nobody really wants what they say they want; they want it to look like they care.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Apparently, the cutoff point is $250,000.00. At that level or above, you are wealthy. And nobody should decide if reaching or exceeding the often touted, "American Dream" is fair or unfair.

Those wealthy fools that you hear screaming about how they want to pay more in taxes, really do not mean it. If they want to pay more, all they need to do is write a check to the General Fund and send it to Washington, DC.

What is "fair" is following the law. We should not be discussing what is fair; rather, what is legally required is all that matters. If the tax laws say you must pay X amount, that is what you should pay. Nothing more. And mind you, the wealthy do pay more taxes than most taxpayers. They build business and increase the number of jobs. They give money to needy causes, and they contribute - often quietly - to any number of causes as well.

The bottom 48-50% do not pay any federal taxes, yet many of them absorb services and goods that tax payers pay for. And in some cases, the "poor" eventually solve their problems and become successful. This happens in the United States and almost nowhere else.

If those politicians and rappers and Hollywood luminaries were actually taxed at the 40% or 50% they (some) think is fair (for everyone else, not them) they would be quite upset. Nobody really wants what they say they want; they want it to look like they care.
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What some fail to realize is that the people that want the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share (meaning more than 15%) want the LAWS CHANGED. Saying that all that matters is what the law says is a lame response. Next, of course most of the tax revenue comes from the wealthy, they hold all the money. Lastly, the wealthiest Americans are not the job creaters you keep claiming they are. The job creates are the middle class, small business owners. This is the group that is getting the biggest shaft.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Apparently, the cutoff point is $250,000.00. At that level or above, you are wealthy. And nobody should decide if reaching or exceeding the often touted, "American Dream" is fair or unfair.

Those wealthy fools that you hear screaming about how they want to pay more in taxes, really do not mean it. If they want to pay more, all they need to do is write a check to the General Fund and send it to Washington, DC.

What is "fair" is following the law. We should not be discussing what is fair; rather, what is legally required is all that matters. If the tax laws say you must pay X amount, that is what you should pay. Nothing more. And mind you, the wealthy do pay more taxes than most taxpayers. They build business and increase the number of jobs. They give money to needy causes, and they contribute - often quietly - to any number of causes as well.

The bottom 48-50% do not pay any federal taxes, yet many of them absorb services and goods that tax payers pay for. And in some cases, the "poor" eventually solve their problems and become successful. This happens in the United States and almost nowhere else.

If those politicians and rappers and Hollywood luminaries were actually taxed at the 40% or 50% they (some) think is fair (for everyone else, not them) they would be quite upset. Nobody really wants what they say they want; they want it to look like they care.
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You keep saying I and others in my bracket dont pay any federal taxes would you like to show me where I went wrong ill show you my taxes? Im not a math wizard but i paid quite a bit more than zero.
 
keale18 said:
You keep saying I and others in my bracket dont pay any federal taxes would you like to show me where I went wrong ill show you my taxes? Im not a math wizard but i paid quite a bit more than zero.
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Because I know more than a few wealthy people and I have history on my side. It is impossible to list everything the wealthy do and have done for this country.

What the rich hate is not paying taxes, it is paying over the top taxes to support a wasteful government.

We hate hearing the BS about how the rich should pay more, uttered by people that will fight like hell to save every tax dollar they can.

I have the IRS tax statistics on my side, so yes, what I say about the top paying to support the bottom half that pays no federal taxes cannot be argued against. It is, as we use to say in my day before the definition changed, a FACT.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Because I know more than a few wealthy people and I have history on my side. It is impossible to list everything the wealthy do and have done for this country.

What the rich hate is not paying taxes, it is paying over the top taxes to support a wasteful government.

We hate hearing the BS about how the rich should pay more, uttered by people that will fight like hell to save every tax dollar they can.

I have the IRS tax statistics on my side, so yes, what I say about the top paying to support the bottom half that pays no federal taxes cannot be argued against. It is, as we use to say in my day before the definition changed, a FACT.
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Citation?
 
Bob Maxey said:
The IRS web site, start there. Tax Foundation dot org, try that. A general web search, look there. It is not secret information, it is not hard to find, and it is widely known.
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A: Copy and paste relevant info
B: Post link to web page


Bob please link me to information that we pay zero federal taxes. If I can save me a chunk of change id like to know the secret.
 
keale18 said:
A: Copy and paste relevant info
B: Post link to web page


Bob please link me to information that we pay zero federal taxes. If I can save me a chunk of change id like to know the secret.
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Nope, not a gonna do it. If you care so much, do your own foot work. Mr. Google wont bite you. The data is easy to find and it is well known. It is like asking me to post a link to pictures of the moon because you do not believe the moon exists.
 
nlsme said:
What some fail to realize is that the people that want the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share (meaning more than 15%) want the LAWS CHANGED. Saying that all that matters is what the law says is a lame response. Next, of course most of the tax revenue comes from the wealthy, they hold all the money. Lastly, the wealthiest Americans are not the job creaters you keep claiming they are. The job creates are the middle class, small business owners. This is the group that is getting the biggest shaft.
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Forgive me if I misconstrue your comments. Just trying to understand and clarification is always welcome. You said, "Saying that all that matters is what the law says is a lame response" bothers me. Do you really think what people want or feel should supplant the law? I am not sure if that is in any way workable.

Does not work that way in other areas. For example, you are doing 55 in a 60 MPH zone and the cops think you are going too fast so you get a ticket.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Forgive me if I misconstrue your comments. Just trying to understand and clarification is always welcome. You said, "Saying that all that matters is what the law says is a lame response" bothers me. Do you really think what people want or feel should supplant the law? I am not sure if that is in any way workable.

Does not work that way in other areas. For example, you are doing 55 in a 60 MPH zone and the cops think you are going too fast so you get a ticket.
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what I said was that saying all that matters is what the law says, in a debate where others are expressing their desire to have the laws changed, is a lame response. A lot easier to comprehend that simple statement, than it is an insurance policy.
 
nlsme said:
what I said was that saying all that matters is what the law says, in a debate where others are expressing their desire to have the laws changed, is a lame response. A lot easier to comprehend that simple statement, than it is an insurance policy.
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So what do you suggest the rate should be? 15%, 35%, 67%, 89%?

The problem is many people want too much without understanding the implications. Many people love to comment about things like taxes and they do not truly understand what would happen if they got their way.

And my comment stands. We should not care what people want, only the law. If you hate the tax code, then seek changes. But many are far too lazy so things will not change.

And it is easier to start complaining that it is to roll up one's sleeves.
 
Bob Maxey said:
So what do you suggest the rate should be? 15%, 35%, 67%, 89%?

The problem is many people want too much without understanding the implications. Many people love to comment about things like taxes and they do not truly understand what would happen if they got their way.

And my comment stands. We should not care what people want, only the law. If you hate the tax code, then seek changes. But many are far too lazy so things will not change.

And it is easier to start complaining that it is to roll up one's sleeves.
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A good start would be to make it where they don't have a lower tax rate than the middle class. I would say do away with the capital gains tax, but tax capital gains as income. And no, your comment that all that matters is the law, is not a good argument to those that wish the law changed.
 
nlsme said:
I would say a good start would be to make it where they don't have a lower tax rate than the middle class. I would say do away with the capital gains tax, but tax capital gains as income. And no, your comment that all that matters is the law, is not a good argument to those that wish the law changed.
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There has to be some kind of separation.

Someone who say, works a 50-hour a week job, but supplements his income with investing, couldn't take the hit if capital gains were taxed higher.

However, someone who is a billionaire and doesn't work, who makes all his money on investing and re-investing, should be taxed higher than the current capital gains tax.

Oh well, nothing can be simple, can it?
 
I am saying do away with taxing capital gains at a separate rate than your marginal rate. It should be added in with any other income, then taxed at your rate. Sure, the little guy might see a raise of a few percent on a small portion of his income, but the rich wouldn't be at a lower rate than the middle class. Couldn't be any more simple.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Nope, not a gonna do it. If you care so much, do your own foot work. Mr. Google wont bite you. The data is easy to find and it is well known. It is like asking me to post a link to pictures of the moon because you do not believe the moon exists.
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Please back up your assertions.
 
I think the issue is is that the people at the very top are able to afford specialists who reduce their tax liabilities.

I think a fair rate of tax is one that redistributed wealth in such a way that everyone gains from economic gains, not just one section of society. The West is not Communist so we can't decide how much people get paid but we can tax a percentage of people's income to smooth out the bumps where some are overpaid and others are underpaid.
 
noah way said:
Those "specialists" include politicians who legislate on behalf of the rich and their corporations.
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They do.

But lower income folks can, and do get together to form lobbying groups. That said, their power is miniscule compared to those you are referring to.
 
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