and you say my taxes wont go up, your contradicting yourself
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Obama Care Yet Again
- Thread starter Bob Maxey
- Start date
and you say my taxes wont go up, your contradicting yourself
anexanhume
Member
I never said that. Please quote it directly.
In fact, I said the exact opposite.
You are begrudging the word tax without actually showing any understanding of what it means. Taxes = bad may be cute to George of the Jungle, but it doesn't convey any sense of reality to the situation.
ok, i did misquote
but you math seems to be that new math where 2+2 can equal 3, 4 or 5
tax percent goes up, my taxes go up.
your assuming employers will increase the pay based on the previous health care costs. and i doubt that will happen. they will use that to cover thier own increased tax rate for hc
and this is not a UHC, its a mandate saying you buy health care or you pay a fine. and if you cant afford it we will pay for you
anexanhume
Member
We've been arguing the hypotheticals of UHC for a while, not the mandate system our country is currently functioning on. I assumed you bought into this argument given my deliberate phrasing and constant use of UHC, which our current system is not.
Also, with the current system, business are only taxed if they do not provide healthcare coverage. That tax is a fine for not doing so. If you work for a company that provides healthcare to all its employees, it's not relevant to you.
anexanhume
Member
That's unfortunate. UHC should be reserved for single payer coverage.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
The thing is is that UHC will reduce costs to you, your employer, and/or the government without raising costs for any.
The money saved would be great for low and low middle income families, and small & medium business's, and due to increased tax take, lower government debt.
There is a very good reason that your average conservative party across the developed world supports UHC.
anexanhume,
I notice how you are trying to persuade one person why a UHC system would work, and it's funny because the president is trying to persuade the whole country why eveyone should have healthcare, and to their prevail, most of their arguments relate to mdram's argument of why should we pay higher taxes for people who don't work. That is why I don't see this country transitioning from our current health care system to a UHC sytem anytime soon, or to Obama's reformed healthcare
I notice how you are trying to persuade one person why a UHC system would work, and it's funny because the president is trying to persuade the whole country why eveyone should have healthcare, and to their prevail, most of their arguments relate to mdram's argument of why should we pay higher taxes for people who don't work. That is why I don't see this country transitioning from our current health care system to a UHC sytem anytime soon, or to Obama's reformed healthcare
anexanhume
Member
You can't expect people making minimum wage to pay taxes. A lot of america lives below the poverty line yet has two working adults in it.
By comparison, Australia's minimum wage is 15/hr and they have around 5% unemployment.
maybe pay no taxes, but people actually get money from the goverment via earned income, a subsidy. they pay 0 through the year, and end up with a big check at tax time.
poverty line for family of 4 is currently 22k, or 1 of them working at min wage 40 hours a week. simple fix, both work
anexanhume
Member
That assumes one can find a full time job. That's not always the case, as an employer often has to provide benefits over a certain number of hours worked. It's also impractical. Both working may necessitate child care, which the family cannot afford.
therein lies the biggest problem.
if you are making so little you are below the poverty line, you should really rethink starting a family until you can better afford it.
schedules can be arranged oftentimes so that one parent is home while the other is working
if you cant find a full time job, get 2 part times
this is how our parents and grandparents did it. but we have become a lazy society that would rather have the government provide for us then do it ourselves
anexanhume
Member
You assume this is all possible with 9% unemployment. It simply isn't. And many find themselves in these situations after the fact. They have a family of 4 with a good income and the rug is pulled out from under them and then they struggle to make ends meet. Not everyone is working at McDonald's on one income and decides to start popping out kids.
Our parents and grandparents faced a lot less competitive world economy. That's why our manufacturing was booming in the 50's. Other people have caught up, and now we ship jobs overseas.
this is not a new situation, its been like this for years, its just getting worse with the current economy.
and people that really want to work do find jobs. i know some that have, i did twice(one was a hold over after a company closed, the other was a better paying ect)
is it hard? yes, but we do what we have to do until things pick up
and people that really want to work do find jobs. i know some that have, i did twice(one was a hold over after a company closed, the other was a better paying ect)
is it hard? yes, but we do what we have to do until things pick up
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
So mdram, why are you opposed to Universal Healthcare?
i am opposed to the government taking over that much of our economy
under their plan i see rationing, higher costs, fewer doctors
the free market can fix the issue, if they let it.
allow sales across state borders, allow more competition
a family of 4 should be paying half as much as a family of 8, currently its the same
but at the same time the people have to rethink what they want from health care
everyone wants a 0 copay and no deductible.
for young/healthy people that go to the doctor once every 3 years a high copay high deductible is more suited to their needs. maybe as an hra or hsa.
no there are plenty of ways to fix the system without the government getting thier hands into it
under their plan i see rationing, higher costs, fewer doctors
the free market can fix the issue, if they let it.
allow sales across state borders, allow more competition
a family of 4 should be paying half as much as a family of 8, currently its the same
but at the same time the people have to rethink what they want from health care
everyone wants a 0 copay and no deductible.
for young/healthy people that go to the doctor once every 3 years a high copay high deductible is more suited to their needs. maybe as an hra or hsa.
no there are plenty of ways to fix the system without the government getting thier hands into it
anexanhume
Member
First world governments across the world have demonstrated UHC is preferable to a private system.
I'm also curious as to how you see rationing, higher costs and fewer doctors when that's generally not the case in countries where UHC is implemented.
Umm, min wage 40 hrs a weak is less than 15k. When the top 1% holds 40% of the nations wealth, I dont wanna hear complaints about what they pay in taxes. Especially when they pay a lesser percent than I do in taxes.
anexanhume
Member
You act as if rationing doesn't already occur in the US. In the US, the private insurance companies decide who does and doesn't get treatment. That means the rich get their treatments while the poor don't. That's how it's rationed. The difference is that one can pay to get treatment in the UK if one elects. The poor still have the system to fall back on. They don't have that here.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
to get this out of the way:
The UK spends 40% per person what the US does on healthcare
Now, the UK has a Socialist system, which is almost entirely funded by the state
This means that people have little medical expenses of their own, but instead pay through their taxes
This means that, as medical costs increase (aging population) , increases in expenditure have to funded by tax increases as opposed to premium increases in an insurance based UHC system, two teired system, or free for all "system".
Now tax increases are never popular, so this is a problem of the socialist system
Presumably, as the UK economy gets back on track around 2015, tax increases will be feasible.
Still the public have chosen the road of frozen health expenditure and no income tax increases for now.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
They don't need to take over it
The system would involve the government regulating Insurance companies and subsidizing premiums
The Private hospitals and Insurers would still be there
As others have pointed out, its in Insurers interests to prevent giving care
Do you not see how the US is paying triple what it should be for its getting
I know most western European have enough doctors, even if they get 3/5ths the pay
This will slash spending by 70%?
Given that you should be paying about $2200 per person for what you gget yet you pay over $7200
Who else will fix it?
The public can't without the government
The Insurers luuuurv the current system
The medical professionals enjoy their oversized pay cheques
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Please forgive me, but the health care systems in place in other, far off lands is not applicable to this thread. Not sure if it is my place as the OP to complain, but forget the UK and talk about this country.
Sorry to be a futz nubbin, but it can be difficult to discuss the issue if we bring up other systems.
Bob
Sorry to be a futz nubbin, but it can be difficult to discuss the issue if we bring up other systems.
Bob