Obamacare is cheap!

[hakr100]

The private sector has made the mess of health care delivery that exists right now in the United States.

 

[Bob Maxey]

The private sector has made the mess of health care delivery that exists right now in the United States.

I think, and I am not sure about specific facts and figures, but The Shiners Hospital and St. Jude seem to be well run. The Huntsman Cancer Clinic and Howard Hughes Medical are all examples of well run care facilities.

Apparently, some groups do a great job serving others. And a few of the above do not charge those that cannot afford the care.

Bob Maxey

 

[LaTuFu]

The private sector has made the mess of health care delivery that exists right now in the United States.

No one disputes that fact. The dispute centers around how to fix it. Those championing a "government run" solution trot out other nations using socialized medicine as examples of "solutions". They get crabby when opponents to their argument point out that these systems have their own flaws, and in almost every case are less efficient, more wasteful, and provide a dramatically lower quality of healthcare across the board.

The solution to the US problem is to stop letting the insurance companies control the reform process. They even controlled a huge portion of the Obamacare changes, which most people don't realize.

 

[ElasticNinja]

The Netherlands has a universal private system
You can read up on that

 

[LaTuFu]

I officially withdraw from discussion on this subject. When I get half-crazed rants from people in my PM inbox, it shakes me back into the reality that forums are not a place where rational discussion is able to take place.

Peace be with you.

 

[byteware]

Oh? What's the daily room charge for? Use of a bed-sized piece of real estate and the bed?

In my honest opinion? It's an itemization that they can charge back to the Insurance companies and get reimbursed for.

If they simply charged you the market price of the items that you used... they wouldn't recoup enough money to pay the operating expenses they have in providing that care for you.

The money to pay for the nurses, administrative staff, janitorial staff, liability insurance, malpractice insurance, etc... doesn't come out of thin air. It comes from the overpricing of materials you use.

You may not like it. But, your alternatives are that the hospital goes out of business, and I think you would like that even less.

 

[byteware]

The private sector has made the mess of health care delivery that exists right now in the United States.

And they did so ALL on their lonesome. The Federal Government hasn't played a part in this in the slightest?

The health care system is the MOST regulated system we have. If the system is a mess, then the Federal Government bears at least part of the blame.

 

[zauper]

In my honest opinion? It's an itemization that they can charge back to the Insurance companies and get reimbursed for.

If they simply charged you the market price of the items that you used... they wouldn't recoup enough money to pay the operating expenses they have in providing that care for you.

The money to pay for the nurses, administrative staff, janitorial staff, liability insurance, malpractice insurance, etc... doesn't come out of thin air. It comes from the overpricing of materials you use.

You may not like it. But, your alternatives are that the hospital goes out of business, and I think you would like that even less.

It also includes the time of the hospitalist. (Not the specialists you see in the hospital, but the hospitalist). Nurse time...

Plus the equipment (bed, monitoring machines)
Plus other "operating" expenses (liability insurance, space costs, linens, etc)

The equipment in particular is rather ridiculously expensive.

IIRC, my last hospital visit both morphine (small doses) and aspirin were included in my day. As was my IV...

But then, it comes down to how your insurance company negotiates with the hospital.

 

[byteware]

I don't buy into the conservative credo that we all exist to enrich corporations and their executives and owners.

That would be a much less embarrassing statement (for you), if that credo actually existed.

If you have to misrepresent your opponents to the point of actually falsifying your position... then your argument isn't worthwhile.

When execs arn 500 to 5000 times more than the average worker, something is drastically wrong.

OK... let's take a look at the Execs at GM. They turned the company around and saved 100's of thousands of jobs. How many more times the average worker is THAT worth?

Perhaps the tax rates of the Republican Eisenhower era would help.

Let's just tax EVERYBODY at THAT rate... wouldn't that be fair? We are all only entitled to a certain percentage of the money we earn?

Actually, I think tax rates on the wealthy are far too low, and by the "standards and definitions" bandied about, my wife and I individually are among the wealthy.

You know... the IRS accepts donations. Decide how much more you feel you should be paying in taxes... and donate it to the IRS.

 

[Benjie]

President Nancy Pelosi said, "We have to vote for it before we know what is in it." or something to that extent.

I have stayed out of this crap for so long on the forums. We are in a change mode and frankly, it is change this country does not need.

What this does is allows the left to buy support for its agenda. Free, free, free, to people who do not pay for it, well, think those people who do not pay for it are going to give something like this up? No. Same with "citizenship," voting by aliens, it is nothing more than an open power grab.

Here is the important thing: have you read the bill as passed? Sad if you were to vote and you did not read the entire bill. It is more than 2,000 pages and most of those people that voted yes did not read the bill. That fact alone is scary because they did not read it, they were voting blind.

Bob

 

[hakr100]

In my honest opinion? It's an itemization that they can charge back to the Insurance companies and get reimbursed for.

If they simply charged you the market price of the items that you used... they wouldn't recoup enough money to pay the operating expenses they have in providing that care for you.

The money to pay for the nurses, administrative staff, janitorial staff, liability insurance, malpractice insurance, etc... doesn't come out of thin air. It comes from the overpricing of materials you use.

You may not like it. But, your alternatives are that the hospital goes out of business, and I think you would like that even less.

The daily room charge includes all those items the hospital cannot charge for individually, and that includes nurses and all the usual administrative and overhead items, and, of course, profit. Lots of profit.

In my opinion, we shouldn't have private hospitals that exist mainly to turn a profit. Hospitals should be publicly owned or run by universities where "profits" are used to treat indigents and promote medical research. There should also be close and tight oversight of every hospital's books by representatives of the public.

I'd also get the health insurers out of the health insurance business, other than, maybe, the processing of claims. Health insurers add nothing to the health of Americans and in many cases interfere with it.

I'm impressed with medical professionals. I'm not impressed with hospitals and insurance companies motivated by profit.

 

[zauper]

The daily room charge includes all those items the hospital cannot charge for individually, and that includes nurses and all the usual administrative and overhead items, and, of course, profit. Lots of profit.

In my opinion, we shouldn't have private hospitals that exist mainly to turn a profit. Hospitals should be publicly owned or run by universities where "profits" are used to treat indigents and promote medical research. There should also be close and tight oversight of every hospital's books by representatives of the public.

I'd also get the health insurers out of the health insurance business, other than, maybe, the processing of claims. Health insurers add nothing to the health of Americans and in many cases interfere with it.

I'm impressed with medical professionals. I'm not impressed with hospitals and insurance companies motivated by profit.

What is the profit margin of a hospital?

What is their profit margin on a Medicaid beneficiary (pick a typical state)
What is their profit margin on a Medicare beneficiary?

What is their patient mix?

Here's a hint:
Medicare pays 95% of cost, on average. (MedPAC argues that the most efficient hospitals break even on Medicare patients)
Medicaid pays aprox 66% of cost, on average.
What percent of uncompensated (bad debt) care do they have?

Medicare is the single largest payer for most hospitals.

There's a reason why PE firms don't buy hospitals.

 

[zauper]

The daily room charge includes all those items the hospital cannot charge for individually, and that includes nurses and all the usual administrative and overhead items, and, of course, profit. Lots of profit.

In my opinion, we shouldn't have private hospitals that exist mainly to turn a profit. Hospitals should be publicly owned or run by universities where "profits" are used to treat indigents and promote medical research. There should also be close and tight oversight of every hospital's books by representatives of the public.

I'd also get the health insurers out of the health insurance business, other than, maybe, the processing of claims. Health insurers add nothing to the health of Americans and in many cases interfere with it.

I'm impressed with medical professionals. I'm not impressed with hospitals and insurance companies motivated by profit.

For most individuals, that's all the insurance companies do. If you work for a large company, your company is also certainly self-insured, which means that your insurance company is processing your claims based on how your firm has told them to. Additionally, they are negotiating network rates with hospitals. Take about a 1-2% margin on those patients. It's generally referred to as the TPA book of business.

 

[mike114]

The government and all it's mandates and regulations has made the mess of health care delivery that exists right now in the United States.

Fixed.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Regulatianz SUK
Look the financial industry does fine with minimal interference - wait a minute

 

[mike114]

Do you bother to even put an ounce of thought into your posts?

The financial industry is probably the most regulated industry in the world and look where that has gotten us. We really have no idea what a deregulated finance industry would be like since we haven't had one.

 

[ElasticNinja]

^^^ Oh puhlease
Ireland had one of the least regulated banking industries in the world

Our banks are 20 times worse than Spains

You sir just spit out whatever you read in your far right websites and news leaflets

Please go back to school before posting again

 

[byteware]

Regulatianz SUK
Look the financial industry does fine with minimal interference - wait a minute

Our financial industry is the most regulated industry in the US behind the medical industry.

You sir, are woefully uninformed.

^^^ Oh puhlease
Ireland had one of the least regulated banking industries in the world

And perhaps you can claim that the failure of Irish banks was do to them being unregulated. However, that same statement would NOT be true when referring to US banks.

You sir just spit out whatever you read in your far right websites and news leaflets

Please go back to school before posting again

So, you state something that was factually incorrect about the US.

You get corrected.

You respond, that Ireland is that way, and that the poster needs to go back to school.

When your errors are pointed out... stating that something entirely off topic IS factually accurate, doesn't prove your original point, nor does it give you any kind of superiority in the conversation.

I'm sure that most modern debate courses teach this concept.

 

[ElasticNinja]

You mean REGULATIONS, ENFOCEMENTS & PENALTIES WERE NOT CUT?

Robert Wade : The failure of financial regulation - Business - NZ Herald News

www.ereleases.com/pr/book-examines-financial-regulation-future-36435

www.alternet.org/movies/142267/'ame...a_massive_and_unregulated_gambling_operation/

Some interesting links

And perhaps you can claim that the failure of Irish banks was do to them being unregulated.

Know not claim

__________

Why do you think regulation is bad - ofc its always a burden of small companies and must be streamlined - but large corparations!?!?

 

[mike114]

When you have regulators being mocked at Congressional hearings because they are trying to enforce laws, that's a problem. We don't have a free market anywhere in this country. What we need are laws, written by the congress and signed by the President which are Constitutional. We don't need regulations imposed by nameless, faceless beaurocrats which aren't held accountable by the voting public. If a company, corporation, individual breaks these laws, they should be prosecuted. Regulations are basically telling free enterprise how to run their businesses.

How about you watch this video and let me know what you think of this regulator getting berated because of his findinga and warnings...which btw, were true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Another reason for the financial meltdown was the Community Reinvestment Act (more regulations). Banks were basically forced to lend money to home buyers who would otherwise never qualify for a mortgage. Once again, the do gooders getting involved in a market where they had no business in the first place. You cannot not centrally plan an economy. You must allow it to go up and down on it's own.

I don't pretend to know what's best for Ireland, so having you come here and tell us what's best for America holds no weight.

 

[ElasticNinja]

You cannot not centrally plan an economy. You must allow it to go up and down on it's own.[/wuote]ah comunism = bad
Communism = big government
Government = bad
I get it
Keep thinking what you think, as long as it doesnt hurt anyone (although if you vote it does)

I don't pretend to know what's best for Ireland, so having you come here and tell us what's best for America holds no weight.

.... are Ireland and the US so different?
Both are full of greedy pigs who will expoit lack of regulation and regulatory flaws to make millions, At the expense of working people like YOU
They took from your pension fund, and caused (and will further caused) your taxes to go up

If regulations had been enforced, updated and strengthened, we would be suffering a minor reccession now not a pseudo-depression

 

[mike114]

Did you even watch the video?

 

[ElasticNinja]

Did you even watch the video?

I dont have PC access atm


humans are not infallible
we do bad things
we have laws to protect society against that
the constitution is not laws, it just is a book that all laws must not be in breach of

we also have regulations:
do you want
your shop selling contamintaed food
your media reprting wrong info
your doctor not reading you x-ray
your bank recklessly trading

?


You think I hate freedom and liberty
I do not
I simply want to keep things for the future
Conserve them
If we dont, our children will not have the same freedom we enjoy

OK?


And I am all for fiscal responsiblity BTW, isnt that conservative

 

[mike114]

Well let me explain it to you briefly. The video shows democrats in a congressional hearing about Fannie & Freddie. It shows the democrats insulting the regulator, calling him a racist and accusing him of lying and blowing the pending housing crisis out of proportion. So what good are regulations when the party in this country who supports massive regulation ignores the regulator??

"humans are not infallible
we do bad things
we have laws to protect society against that
the constitution is not laws, it just is a book that all laws must not be in breach of"

So far so good.

"we also have regulations:
do you want
your shop selling contamintaed food"

We don't need federal regulations to stop the spread of contaminated food. We have states that can do this. We also have laws against this. If you get sick or if someone dies, there are legal remedies for this. Also, tell me which company stays in business by selling contaminated food?

"your media reprting wrong info"

I don't want state run media telling me what is wrong or isn't. I want diverse news outlets and have the ability to discern the truth.

"your doctor not reading you x-ray"

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm sure we don't need some sort of regulation for a doctor to read my x-rays.

"your bank recklessly trading"

Again, my state can write laws to prevent this from happening. If I enter to an agreement with a bank (contract) than I have the ability to sue them for acting reckless. BTW, you do realize that the FDIC (government program) basically opened the door for reckless banking, right??

"you think I hate freedom and liberty
I do not
I simply want to keep things for the future
Conserve them
If we dont, our children will not have the same freedom we enjoy"

You like big federal government. That is not freedom. I like small federal government, that's freedom. You want a centralized gov't planning every part of your life, I don't. So tell me again how this freedoms works in your utopia?

"OK?"

Actually, no it's not OK. Someone on these boards said it best, every time a new law is passed, we lose a little bit more of our freedoms.

"And I am all for fiscal responsiblity BTW, isnt that conservative"

Really, well then how do you plan on paying for all your big government programs? That's not conservatism. You have no idea what it is to be conservative/libertarian judging by your posts here.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Well let me explain it to you briefly. The video shows democrats in a congressional hearing about Fannie & Freddie. It shows the democrats insulting the regulator, calling him a racist and accusing him of lying and blowing the pending housing crisis out of proportion. So what good are regulations when the party in this country who supports massive regulation ignores the regulator??

Interesting, I wonder how many were in the pockets of vested interests
I'm not a democratic BTW obviously

"we also have regulations:
do you want
your shop selling contamintaed food"

We don't need federal regulations to stop the spread of contaminated food. We have states that can do this. We also have laws against this.

fair enough

If you get sick or if someone dies, there are legal remedies for this.

prevention is better

Also, tell me which company stays in business by selling contaminated food?

You'd be surprised
"your media reprting wrong info"

I don't want state run media telling me what is wrong or isn't.

I was refering to false reporting
Like the 200% of GDP Debt for Ireland reports

I want diverse news outlets and have the ability to discern the truth.

Me too
Our state broadcaster is great but we have other news sources too

"your doctor not reading you x-ray"

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm sure we don't need some sort of regulation for a doctor to read my x-rays.

It was an example of medical negligence

"your bank recklessly trading"

Again, my state can write laws to prevent this from happening. If I enter to an agreement with a bank (contract) than I have the ability to sue them for acting reckless.

But they dont
Banks need to be regulated as much as possible, they can destroy an economy

BTW, you do realize that the FDIC (government program) basically opened the door for reckless banking, right??

It invented futures and hedge funds?

You like big federal government.

Not really, IMO states should run most things

That is not freedom.

huh

I like small federal government, that's freedom.

huh

You want a centralized gov't planning every part of your life, I don't.

huh

So tell me again how this freedoms works in your utopia?

what utopia?

"OK?"

Actually, no it's not OK. Someone on these boards said it best, every time a new law is passed, we lose a little bit more of our freedoms.

Lets thank Dubya for that

"And I am all for fiscal responsiblity BTW, isnt that conservative"

Really, well then how do you plan on paying for all your big government programs? That's not conservatism. You have no idea what it is to be conservative/libertarian judging by your posts here.

What big government programs apart from healthcare (which IMO should be state run)?
My government is pushing through an austerity plan which cuts my parents wages and increases their taxes.
I support it