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Obamacare is cheap!

I absolutely disagree. If people want to die earlier, then they will save the health care system money. Healthy people who live to a ripe old age cost much more to the health care system than people who die early from cigarettes and obesity.

Having the government attempt to control behavior is a dangerous dangerous thing. It should not be done. Sin taxes should not exist.

Now that they exist and are acceptable... everything deemed bad for us will eventually be taxed to the hilt. About 5 years ago, I started realizing this, and used the example of soda's being taxed in the future. People scoffed at the idea, but now New York is painfully close to implementing Sin taxes on Soda.

I don't want government's or insurance companies deciding whether or not I'm allowed to have steak, or whether I'm required to eat tofu.

I agree that we start stepping very close to a slippery slope, but I don't think sin taxes are the wrong way to go about it in many cases. Alcohol and Tobacco regulation in most states is covered almost entirely by the taxes levied on those products. I have no problem levying additional taxes on "snacks". In many ways, people who overindulge on doritoes and coke are just as much a burden on the health system as a heavy smoker.

While smokers and obese people do tend to have shorter life expectancies, their morbidity (chronic or long term treatment issues) is higher than the regular population during that time. So they're still more expensive, even though they go *poof* quicker than a granola eating sprite.
 
I agree that we start stepping very close to a slippery slope, but I don't think sin taxes are the wrong way to go about it in many cases. Alcohol and Tobacco regulation in most states is covered almost entirely by the taxes levied on those products.

If that was all the money was used for, then I would absolutely agree. However, those products are taxed far beyond what is needed for enforcement (that's something I actually am intimately familiar with).

I have no problem levying additional taxes on "snacks". In many ways, people who overindulge on doritoes and coke are just as much a burden on the health system as a heavy smoker.

They are far less of a burden than a healthy old person. Getting everyone to live longer healthier lives will not reduce the burden on the health care system, but will increase it. Granted you will get about 10 - 20 years of a slightly lower burden, but after that, it will crush you.

While smokers and obese people do tend to have shorter life expectancies, their morbidity (chronic or long term treatment issues) is higher than the regular population during that time. So they're still more expensive, even though they go *poof* quicker than a granola eating sprite.

You are right, but shortsighted. An obese 60 year old costs more than a healthy weight 60 year old. This is true. However, the total health care costs over a person who is obese and dies at 65, is roughly half the total health care costs of a healthy person who lives to be 80.

So, yes being obese is less costly to society than growing old...


Elderly Care Costs Rising, Require Prevention, Study Says

Found that title amusing... we should take action to prevent people from needing Geriatric care... (hello logan's run).



There were several studies, a couple of years ago, that detailed out just how much money was saved by dying early from obesity (and lung disease for that money). It's more expensive in the short term, but much cheaper in the long term.
 
You know you people just don't have a single shred of a clue as to what it's like to live in a REAL mother hell hole do you?

We are totally... completely... and ABSOLUTELY F*CKED here in South Africa!

You people really need to see what it's like in the real world...

You think you guys have got problems hey? Well .... come take a visit to South Africa sometime...

SA the biggest welfare state in the world, says economist - Business - Mail & Guardian Online

Crime in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Isn't this just awesome? )

Mbeki Aids denial 'caused 300,000 deaths' | World news | guardian.co.uk

Doctor's Strike and South African healthcare collapse - A Doctors View

Xenophobia in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Top 10 Most Dangerous Places on Earth (Don't panic! We are only number 8 :) )

.... you people need to open your eyes... you are a lot better off than others,
Yes you guys have got problems but you are a lot better off than many others like us here in SA.

Our health care is a disaster here! Heaven help you if you end up in a government Hospital... you are better off doing the surgery or whatever yourself!
 
You know you people just don't have a single shred of a clue as to what it's like to live in a REAL mother hell hole do you?

We are totally... completely... and ABSOLUTELY F*CKED here in South Africa!

You people really need to see what it's like in the real world...

You think you guys have got problems hey? Well .... come take a visit to South Africa sometime...

SA the biggest welfare state in the world, says economist - Business - Mail & Guardian Online

Crime in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Isn't this just awesome? )

Mbeki Aids denial 'caused 300,000 deaths' | World news | guardian.co.uk

Doctor's Strike and South African healthcare collapse - A Doctors View

Xenophobia in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Top 10 Most Dangerous Places on Earth (Don't panic! We are only number 8 :) )

.... you people need to open your eyes... you are a lot better off than others,
Yes you guys have got problems but you are a lot better off than many others like us here in SA.

Our health care is a disaster here! Heaven help you if you end up in a government Hospital... you are better off doing the surgery or whatever yourself!

The aftermath of apartheid is a bitch, hey?
 
No, you aren't penalized for it. You just can't afford it.

You raise a fair point.
We probably CAN afford it, it's just that it makes it a roll of the dice and
if they don't land in our favor we are screwed for life.
We try to live responsibly.
We don't spend money we don't have and are fiscally responsible.
That means getting insurance in case of the unknowns.
It's not that we would drop the policy as soon as the kid is here - she still would need insurance, it's just been priced out of reach and if it only costs on average $10k for a kid then why pay $40,000 into the system before you even get covered for it at 80% if they are not trying to fleece women?
Does it really cost that much on average? I doubt it.

The way I see this is that people that can't afford yet WANT kids are driven into Medicaid and other public programs that increase the cost.
We would never do that. (and we don't qualify anyhow...) but all it does is drive people into the grossly inefficient system that is Medicaid.

Then you see all the people on the system just popping them out... at my expense, but that's a whole other rant about why I have a deep hatred for people getting on welfare and just popping out kids and I can't say a thing about it, and here we are productive members of society priced out of it.
 
The aftermath of apartheid is a bitch, hey?

Whoa... you have NO idea what you are talking about buddy.

So... with your kind of crazy logic.... 2 wrongs make a right hey? Ja sure buddy keep dreaming dude.... see your logic is crazy and irrational... if every1 did this the world would end in 1 second.

Anywayz... i hope you did not mean harm with that statement above... i hope at least. I am sorry if i thought you did not mean harm

What i was trying to say was you people need to be grateful for the small miracles you actually have...

The USA is A LOT better off than some places. You should be grateful... But hell yes you have a right to be frustrated and upset with the madness going on in USA and it's crackpot government... but also be grateful you don't live in the rape capital of the world...

SA 'rape capital' of the world: News24: South Africa: News
 
There are things government does better than the private sector, and these are often necessary for a nations survival:
military, education, healthcare, statistics, regulation, banking, ecomic management

:eek::eek:

Hahahahahaaa!!! lolololol!! :)

This is just damn hilarious!

I can't believe i missed this before!

Bwahahaaahahaa!

ROFL! :)

Hahahaa!!

you know... i have not heard something this crazy in a very long time. You have made my day! This is just god damn hilarious! :)

Governments are the scum of the earth! And governments and politicians can NOT be trusted with ANYTHING... EVER... period. Anything politicians touch turns into dog turd... sad but true.

That's just the way it is sadly. I always knew there was a bit of the "comrade" in you shadow...

Anywayz,

But to get back to the main topic.

I totally agree with having medical AID or medical insurance for those that actually need it.... but an entire nation i mean come on!... thats just crazy. The USA already owes the world 13.56 TRILLION dollars... and counting! How will this health care help improve their already massive debt?

Wow...

Check this crazy debt clock out isn't this just crazy?

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
 
You raise a fair point.
We probably CAN afford it, it's just that it makes it a roll of the dice and
if they don't land in our favor we are screwed for life.
We try to live responsibly.
We don't spend money we don't have and are fiscally responsible.

And yet you are complaining that you cannot afford to have a baby because paying for it on your own is a roll of the dice, and insurance companies want to make sure you pay them enough to make it worth THEIR while to cover it.

It's not that we would drop the policy as soon as the kid is here - she still would need insurance, it's just been priced out of reach and if it only costs on average $10k for a kid then why pay $40,000 into the system before you even get covered for it at 80% if they are not trying to fleece women?
Does it really cost that much on average? I doubt it.

It costs a heck of A LOT of money. Especially when you consider ALL that goes into when a baby is born. It's not just 3+ days of hospitalization for the mother, but also 3+ days of hospitalization for the baby.

If anything goes wrong and they require neo-natal care... it can skyrocket to over $100K VERY quickly.

The way I see this is that people that can't afford yet WANT kids are driven into Medicaid and other public programs that increase the cost.
We would never do that. (and we don't qualify anyhow...) but all it does is drive people into the grossly inefficient system that is Medicaid.

You can't afford kids, so you argue that people who want kids but can't afford them being driven to the government teet means that insurance should be more like the government teet?

Then you see all the people on the system just popping them out... at my expense, but that's a whole other rant about why I have a deep hatred for people getting on welfare and just popping out kids and I can't say a thing about it, and here we are productive members of society priced out of it.

I agree with you. But it's not the insurance companies fault that you cannot afford to have a child.

And, really, the government shouldn't really be focusing on insurance companies. What they should be focusing on is WHY health care costs are so high.

I think that three things would greatly bring down the cost of health care.

1) Make it illegal to sell drugs or medical devices in the US if the company (or subsidiary) sells them cheaper to other first world countries.

This will work in two ways. Canada and UK legislate the price structure for medical devices and drugs. These companies would be unable to raise prices in these countries, so they would have to stop selling their products there (The US is where they make the majority of their money). These companies will initially RAISE their prices in the US. These other first world countries would suffer a serious problem when it comes to providing medical treatment for their citizens, and have to repeal the price control laws. Once that happens, pricing for medical products and drugs should come down in the US.

2) Provide a government funded program to help students get through medical school. We need more General Practice doctors, nurses, and nurse practitioners. We need them all VERY badly. Flooding the market with qualified providers will bring down the costs of some of these services. For example, we have a severe nursing shortage. Hospitals will currently offer a nurse 3x-4x the normal pay to come work for a short 3 month contract. They will also provide housing accommodations. Obviously, this drives up the cost of health care, but with a 400,000 nurse shortage nationally, hospitals have to have some way to get the staff they need to provide the services that we use.


3) Require hospitals and doctors offices to provide a schedule of services and pricing. Allow you to price shop between different hospitals and such. This would allow competition among the providers and allow the market to bring down some of the costs.
 
Whoa... you have NO idea what you are talking about buddy.

So... with your kind of crazy logic.... 2 wrongs make a right hey? Ja sure buddy keep dreaming dude.... see your logic is crazy and irrational... if every1 did this the world would end in 1 second.

I think what he meant was things like apartheid have consequences. Whenever an oppressed people come into power, there is massive crime in disruption like this.

Not that what was happening now was justified because of apratheid... and I generally don't agree with hakr100 on anything.
 
While we don't agree 100% on the reasons why... it's close enough that's it's not worth getting into.






I've been told (I don't know how accurate that information is) that the UK has a particularly interesting solution to tort reform.

They have a three judge panel that reviews lawsuits before they go to trial. If a lawsuit is determined frivolous, then it is dismissed before it ever goes to trial. Bring three lawsuits that are frivolous and you are disbarred.

It puts the onus on lawyers to pick cases that are honest and valid cases. It also allows lawsuits of people who have 60 more years left and are seriously handicapped by medical malpractice to get a sum that would support them for the remainder of their life.

Some people need large payouts. We just need to weed out the lawsuits that are frivolous and never need to see the inside of a courtroom.



Awesome idea. We are going to be horribly short of General Practitioners if we implement any kind of universal health care.

If we don't do something to increase the number of GP's we have, then we will go from great health care for some, to horrible health care for everyone.



I would also argue that having the government do independent trials would give us a much more honest assessment of the drugs abilities and detriments. There are too many drugs that have been on the market for years being recalled for bad side effects. We cannot allow drug companies to hide these from us.

I think the drug companies should be required to fund the government study if they want their drugs on the market. The government will run the study, and the drug companies will pay for it, but will have no control over how the money is spent, or who does the actual testing.



I absolutely disagree. If people want to die earlier, then they will save the health care system money. Healthy people who live to a ripe old age cost much more to the health care system than people who die early from cigarettes and obesity.

Having the government attempt to control behavior is a dangerous dangerous thing. It should not be done. Sin taxes should not exist.

Now that they exist and are acceptable... everything deemed bad for us will eventually be taxed to the hilt. About 5 years ago, I started realizing this, and used the example of soda's being taxed in the future. People scoffed at the idea, but now New York is painfully close to implementing Sin taxes on Soda.

I don't want government's or insurance companies deciding whether or not I'm allowed to have steak, or whether I'm required to eat tofu.

I don't think the government should impose sin taxes. That's not what I'm saying. I was just pointing out that some things should cost more than they do because they're risky. I expect someone who rock climbs, skydives, or choses to climb Mt. Everest to pay more for life insurance than I do when I avoid those things despite any claims of how safe they are.

Ironically, there are discounts for "good behavior" built into the insurance pricing models. Those same discounts get altered, eliminated, or severely reduced when too many risky behaviors are built into the system.

Years ago, I worked at an insurance company that I could not afford to get my own auto insurance from. I was a bit miffed on a personal level. But having worked there and seen the profit/loss statements, I realize that covering me as a single male with a performance car simply hurt the pool. Even if I drove safely, others in my age group really didn't enough that it impacted the cost of the entire pool. It wasn't the fender-benders that caused issues, it's the less common accident with fatalities resulting in long-term injury/disability or loss of life that hurt the pool a lot. It simply takes fewer of them than people think.

Fundamentally, it's the same for healthcare. The entire risk pool is affected by behavior down to the individual level. I don't think it's risk-pool sound to ignore obesity, smoking, and other reasonably avoidable self-induced health problems. Though you might be correct about people with those habits not living as long, they still live at a higher cost. Often, older people who've lived fairly healthy lives do not add significant cost to the system during the additional healthy years. Again, it's the beginning and end of life that tend to cost most. One of the most underreported conclusions by almost every significant medical panel and study is the fact that many of the issues being treated by drugs or procedures today are, in fact, avoidable or significantly easier to address in other ways.

People cannot change their genetics or accidents that are the primary causes or significant contributors to poor health. But we can eat, exercise, and do many things that make things better.

You'll find no bigger fan of bacon on earth than me. However, I limit myself to eating it on special occasions and no more than once a month. My life is fine without it. I don't obsess about if it's used in food prepared by someone other than me. But I know it's not healthy for me personally to consume on a regular basis.

I'm not a tax fan of anything, but I'm even more dissatisfied with knowing that "sin" taxes are used to raise general funds. I know it's probably too complex to come up with exact behavior-to-tax formulae, but something different has to be done. Heck, put the extra funds into the legal pool for alcohol-related case payouts.

My issue with frivolous lawsuits is simple. I expect people should be compensated or expenses accounted for that pass the smell test. Millions for care of someone who's been wrongfully disabled makes sense. Millions for someone who's been humiliated or suffered temporary pain - not sensible. People should not be using lawsuits to improve their lifestyles at the expense of the rest of us.

I think we agree on many points though. Just wanted to clarify ones because it's as important to know the why as to know the what and how. Also had 10 extra free minutes this morning. Oops, times up.
 
What you are suggesting is basically a sin tax, and it leads to us all doing only what the government has approved that isn't risky.


What I propose is different, increased deductibles for medical expenses incurred from certain classes of behavior.

If your diet is horrible, and you have weight related issues, then your deductible goes up.

If you have injuries from mountain climbing, then your deductible goes up (honestly though... I don't think you'll have to worry much about health care if you are injured mountain climbing).

You allow people to do whatever the heck they want to... you don't try to change their behavior, you just add some consequences if it affects others.
 
I'll just bet you trust...corporations. Right?

Both are animals that you approach with caution and distrust.

There have been some absolutely great deals that I have walked away from, simply because I didn't see the catch. Companies intend to make money from everything that they do. If I don't see how they intend to make money from a transaction, I will walk away. I don't trust corporations any more than I trust the government. Although, the rules are a little bit more clearly defined with a corporation.
 
What you are suggesting is basically a sin tax, and it leads to us all doing only what the government has approved that isn't risky.


What I propose is different, increased deductibles for medical expenses incurred from certain classes of behavior.

If your diet is horrible, and you have weight related issues, then your deductible goes up.

If you have injuries from mountain climbing, then your deductible goes up (honestly though... I don't think you'll have to worry much about health care if you are injured mountain climbing).

You allow people to do whatever the heck they want to... you don't try to change their behavior, you just add some consequences if it affects others.

We're close. What I'd like to introduce initial cost at the initial point of action. Amazingly, people find out about weight-related health issues AFTER they're being treated. I don't know that it's reasonable to weight and measure people before deciding coverage. That's all.

Using my auto insurance example, I was well aware that my deductible was higher when I bought my car. The cost wasn't a deterrent because I knew a majority of my risk was not being paid by me even though the costs and deductible were pricey. That said, I might have thought differently about which car to buy had I had to actually pay for a more exact cost based on my risk profile. My individual risk profile would have made buying that car too costly for me. I would have been upset, but I couldn't afford a Porsche either and managed to live my life just fine without it.

The fundamental problem with healthcare is that allowing people to do whatever and then putting them into a pool creates a bad pool. I haven't yet come up with a better idea on how to have individuals assume some of the risk and cost as the behavior is taking place.

I see it sort of like toll roads. I hate them, but if they are the best way to get me where I need to go, then I use them. My gripe with them is that they often collect more than enough money for maintenance and buildout. That's all the money should be used for - not put into some other rat hole general fund like it is in NJ where I live. Toll roads should be baby's butt smooth and toll collections should have intermittent breaks when funds to cover the roads operating expenses are covered. Instead, they're just cash cows. If I want to avoid toll roads, it's possible though. Maybe not convenient, but possible.

Insurance can become cash cows too if the rates are raised. The real fear of single-source healthcare will be the cost. No way can it be done without people seeing extreme cost increases in premiums and reductions in services.

One thing I did learn from my time in insurance is that all pools will fail when expanded to include anyone and everyone.
 
I think what he meant was things like apartheid have consequences. Whenever an oppressed people come into power, there is massive crime in disruption like this.

Not that what was happening now was justified because of apratheid... and I generally don't agree with hakr100 on anything.

Thank you byteware dude :)

You are a really clever dude!

120% correct.

+1

Yes... i totally understand why the uneducated are angry but does insane and hungry blood lust revenge really solve anything?

Answer: never in a million billion years...

That is exactly what i was trying to say. It will just make things start all over AGAIN... and AGAIN and AGAIN... etc and make the shit even worse...

That's why i asked "do 2 wrongs make a right?"

You see the uneducated people just want revenge and aren't thinking rationally at all... they are just being revengeful.... what the they are doing is not justified AT ALL... period. It's as simple as 123. This won't fix anything.... just makes matters 10 times worse :(

And to think I actually voted for the ANC back in the day! :mad:

I hate the ANC now... they are scum.

They will burn in hell forever. I know this. This is fact...

African National Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (ANC scum)

I'll just bet you trust...corporations. Right?

Huh???

Where did you draw this statement from?

Naah i don't trust any massive insane conglomerate of crazy corrupt corporations at all... so ja i dunno where you got this from?

But to get back to the main topic...

I truly believe free enterprise is the way to go. The "great" governments of any country shud stay faaaaar away from health things like this. I think that USA Democrat government shud be concentrating on things like their massive debt they owe to the rest of the world instead of trying to win votes with the bums of the world and then they just drain the system... they (USA) owe the rest of the world a crap load of cash... and they shud pay it back.

United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

This "health medical insurance" sounds very dangerous to me. I think it is a drain on the hard working people of the USA... it will suck their economy high and dry :(

It will scare the hard workers away in seconds... sad but true.

I apologize if i have offended any1 here... i did not mean to ;)
 
We're close. What I'd like to introduce initial cost at the initial point of action. Amazingly, people find out about weight-related health issues AFTER they're being treated. I don't know that it's reasonable to weight and measure people before deciding coverage. That's all.

No one should be telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing. Period.

Using my auto insurance example, I was well aware that my deductible was higher when I bought my car. The cost wasn't a deterrent because I knew a majority of my risk was not being paid by me even though the costs and deductible were pricey. That said, I might have thought differently about which car to buy had I had to actually pay for a more exact cost based on my risk profile. My individual risk profile would have made buying that car too costly for me. I would have been upset, but I couldn't afford a Porsche either and managed to live my life just fine without it.

That's far different than say, making it more expensive to buy the car because it's risky (which is what you are advocating).

The fundamental problem with healthcare is that allowing people to do whatever and then putting them into a pool creates a bad pool. I haven't yet come up with a better idea on how to have individuals assume some of the risk and cost as the behavior is taking place.

OR, you could just charge them more for injuries that are incurred from risky behavior.
 
No one should be telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing. Period.

That's far different than say, making it more expensive to buy the car because it's risky (which is what you are advocating).

OR, you could just charge them more for injuries that are incurred from risky behavior.


If you weigh 230 pounds and you live your life by what fast food places allow you to supersize; if you smoke like a chimney, if you have multiple DUI arrests... I have a right to tell you how to live your life if my tax dollars are paying for your insurance.

If, however, you are 300 pounds, smoke 2 packs a day, you like to fly drunk, and I AM NOT paying for the aftermath of your dangerous lifestyle, I DO NOT have a right to tell you how to live your life. Live well or die fat, slovenly, and in pain, who cares.

But that is just me, handout free since 1955. By the way, I smoke and I drink, and I occasionally supersize my Mickey D fry order and I do not expect my care to be on the public dime.

Bob Maxey
 
If you weigh 230 pounds and you live your life by what fast food places allow you to supersize; if you smoke like a chimney, if you have multiple DUI arrests... I have a right to tell you how to live your life if my tax dollars are paying for your insurance.

Negative. That's not a right. You have a right to WANT to. Scale back coverage, increase deductibles. Make it more and more painful for me when I cost everyone else more money.

If I eat out at McDonald's once a month, I shouldn't pay a fine because McDonald's could make me fat...

Penalize me costing people by my behavior... not my behavior.

But that is just me, handout free since 1955. By the way, I smoke and I drink, and I occasionally supersize my Mickey D fry order and I do not expect my care to be on the public dime.

So, if you have an accident and are forced onto the public dime... you would feel fine if we dictate which meals you are allowed to eat and which activities you are allowed to participate in?

I would not, nor would I expect anyone else to be.
 
I also worked for the Census Bureau...Anyone that wants a private company handling their personal info and data is a fcuking idiot. period.
The Census Bureau reports to no one. Not even the president. Actually I should have said Congress, cause even the president has to appear before congress.
 
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