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Obama's scandals

What does everyone think of the new developments today:

IRS: Lois Lerner, the head of the tax exempt division at the IRS, said she did nothing wrong, then invoked the 5th amendment and refused to testify any further. IMO, this just proves her guilt and fires up the Congress even more to fully investigate this.

Benghazi: There are more witnesses ready to come forward. They are going to testify that Obama gave the stand down order and threatened to have General Ham relieved of command if he violated the stand down order and sent the nearby special forces unit to assist.

Also they are set to testify that it was Secretary of State Clinton that headed the "independent review" into what happened. You know, the same review that she kept referencing when she testified before congress last time that found the State Department did nothing wrong.
 
Lois Lerner, the head of the tax exempt division at the IRS, said she did nothing wrong, then invoked the 5th amendment and refused to testify any further. IMO, this just proves her guilt and fires up the Congress even more to fully investigate this.
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REP. TREY GOWDY (R-SC): Mr. Issa, Mr. Cummings just said we should run this like a courtroom, and I agree with him. She just testified. She just waived her Fifth Amendment right to privilege. You don't get to tell your side of the story and then not be subjected to cross examination. That's not the way it works. She waived her Fifth Amendment privilege by issuing an open statement. She ought to stand here and answer our questions.
 
jefboyardee said:
"Lois Lerner, the head of the tax exempt division at the IRS, said she did nothing wrong, then invoked the 5th amendment and refused to testify any further. IMO, this just proves her guilt and fires up the Congress even more to fully investigate this."
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No, it was clearly and absolutely the right thing to do.

Why do so many people dislike the 5th Amendment? It prevents her from getting flustered and saying things she should not say and landing her in further trouble. Innocent people are hung all the time because they can't keep their mouth shut; they hang themselves and they could be innocent.

The 5th Amendment protects you from self-incrimination. Pleading the Fifth means you refuse to answer any question because of the implications of the question(s) and/or the setting in which it is asked.

You should look at history, the 5th, what SCOTUS says, some case law and why we have the right to invoke.

She did exactly what I would have done and it DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING except perhaps that she has a smart lawyer.
 
Bob Maxey said:
No, it was clearly and absolutely the right thing to do.

Why do so many people dislike the 5th Amendment? It prevents her from getting flustered and saying things she should not say and landing her in further trouble. Innocent people are hung all the time because they can't keep their mouth shut; they hang themselves and they could be innocent.

The 5th Amendment protects you from self-incrimination. Pleading the Fifth means you refuse to answer any question because of the implications of the question(s) and/or the setting in which it is asked.

You should look at history, the 5th, what SCOTUS says, some case law and why we have the right to invoke.

She did exactly what I would have done and it DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING except perhaps that she has a smart lawyer.
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You are right, it doesn't prove anything, but it sure does sway opinion.

I would normally say that it was the right thing to do for her, but given the nature of the allegations and her position I don't think she has the right to not testify. If I am being audited and I simply refuse to answer any questions or provide any documentation, odds are I'm going to prison. Plus, she is the one that planted someone in the audience to "break" the scandal right before the IG report was released.

Don't take this as me not supporting someone's rights. But, when you hold a government position like that, especially at an agency that has the ability to destroy someone's life, you need to be held to a higher standard. The IRS CAN NOT be partisan either way, or our government CAN NOT function. She was directly responsible for what occurred.

jefboyardee said:
True, but it also leaves a screaming implication of having something to hide.
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I agree!
 
chrlswltrs said:
You are right, it doesn't prove anything, but it sure does sway opinion.

I would normally say that it was the right thing to do for her, but given the nature of the allegations and her position I don't think she has the right to not testify. If I am being audited and I simply refuse to answer any questions or provide any documentation, odds are I'm going to prison. Plus, she is the one that planted someone in the audience to "break" the scandal right before the IG report was released.
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I disagree. She is a citizen and she still has rights. She is under no obligation to hang herself. And to be clear, there is a difference between a witness and a defendant pleading the 5th.

I agree, it does look suspicious to many people. Many will ask "what does she have to hide." But those folks do not really get what pleading the 5th really means.

My view is the IRS will escape and life will go on. Apparently, this is not new:

1930s - President Franklin Roosevelt used the IRS against political enemies.

1940s and 1950s - Corruption and bribery became widespread at the IRS, resulting in hundreds of staffers being dismissed or indicted.

1960s - During the administration of President John Kennedy, the IRS created an "Ideological Organizations Audit Project" that investigated conservative groups and challenged their tax-exempt status.

1960s, 70s - The Nixon administration created an IRS unit called the Special Services Staff, or SSS, to target activists and political dissidents.

1990s - During hearings by Senator William Roth's Finance Committee, the IRS was accused of "Gestapo-like" conduct and myriad taxpayer abuses.

Read More: Factbox: IRS's rich history of scandals, political abuse | Reuters
 
saptech said:
Nope. It still have negative consequences...but only those it effected the most realize it. I didn't realize there is a statue of limitation for it either.

Remember, slaves didn't come to this country through the Statue of Liberty but through the Statue of Limitations!

My main point was Obama is no more racist then other presidents, and yes, even current presidents have shown to be racist.
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Whenever you try to rebut an argument about current events by saying "but what about..." in reference to something you perceive as equally offensive and by association, justification, you diminish your argument. Especially when you have to go back more than a century. I would have the same issue with people who bring up Watergate as a comparison to Benghazi, even though the comparison is substantially more relevant considering Hillary Clinton was involved in both scandals.

Let me simplify it a bit: Someone else called Obama a racist and your response to that was not to refute that he is or isn't a racist but to mollify his apparent racism by bringing up slavery from 130 years ago. If you feel or genuinely believe he is not a racist, why not try to refute the other posters accusation and ask him to quantify his comment?
 
dibblebill said:
Just throwing this article out here, since I see a lot of anti-Obama cranking but little blame thrown to the Republican party, who is just as responsible for the mess we are in.
The Conservative Welfare State - Reason.com
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I was and am very disappointed with those we/the RNC elects to put up for the presidency. Very discouraged. Obama is demonstrably bad. My proof is what he has done, has not done and the record.

I am afraid what needs to be done will not sit well with voters. We need to do those things Obama would never, ever consider. We need to invest in our future and start cutting to the bone.

Let us just hope that in a few years, when michelle is elected and reelected and when his kids get their 16 years in, things will be much better. :)
 
I was pulling for Gary Johnson in the last election... I see no difference between Democrats and Republicans anymore save the nuances of statism and corporatism they support.
 
Part of what makes the IRS scandal bigger this time than in the past is the blatant cover ups and cluelessness through out the entire andministration and their record of intimidation to silence people. The same pattern can be seen in the IRS scandal, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, release of criminals due to "sequestration," AP and Fox phone records, drone strikes, massive ammo stockpiles, the true cost and ineffectiveness of Obamacare, etc. No one in the administration, DOJ, DHS, IRS, etc has any clue about anything until they see it in the press, then it is deny, deny, deny until they can no longer do so, all while the entire time silencing witnesses and "whistle blowers" through intimidation, demotions, and illegal prosecution.

And I pray to God that Michelle never gets elected. We will be lucky if we survive Barack. It will already take years if not decades to undo all the damage Barack has done.
 
A bit of a question for you guys: Aside from Obamacare itself, what is the difference between what he and Bush did, and what Romney would've done? Hrm?
 
dibblebill said:
A bit of a question for you guys: Aside from Obamacare itself, what is the difference between what he and Bush did, and what Romney would've done? Hrm?
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Bush was not afraid to say "Islamic terrorism;" when we went to war everyone thought there were WMDs (both parties including Hillary) based on intelligence; Bush never left anyone to die and ordered nearby help to not assist; Bush did not order ICS and Border patrol not to arrest and deport criminals; Bush didn't go on vacation or host celebrity parties almost every week while the country was suffering; need more?

There are some similarities. Loss of freedom (Patriot Act and NDAA), increase in deficits, etc, but Obama has taken the very things he ran against and made them much, much worse.

And Romney would have actually been able to help the economy. He was a successful businessman and actually cares about the country. Obama only cares about power, helping Muslims, and partying with celebrities.
 
chrlswltrs said:
Bush was not afraid to say "Islamic terrorism;" when we went to war everyone thought there were WMDs (both parties including Hillary) based on intelligence; Bush never left anyone to die and ordered nearby help to not assist; Bush did not order ICS and Border patrol not to arrest and deport criminals; Bush didn't go on vacation or host celebrity parties almost every week while the country was suffering; need more?
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Woah woah hold on now. Are you saying that sending a few ships to Libya was less warranted than invading Iraq?
 
Almost forgot, Lois Lerner (in charge of the IRS division for tax exempt status that was targeting anyone who opposed the president) after pleading the 5th and not testifying about what she was directly responsible for is now on administrative leave, aka forced paid vacation!

Regardless of if she says anything or not, she was in charge of the division that was doing this. She should be FIRED, not forced to take paid vacation.


Aaaand.... Even worse. The woman who held the job when the targeting started and up until Lerner took over is now in charge of the IRS implementation of Obamacare. I can see it now: "Oh, I'm sorry sir, our records show you posted an anti-Obama message on Facebook, that medical treatment is only available for those that support our king."
 
I'm not sure how it is that anyone here gets to call someone stupid, along with the rest of the senseless invective here.

That this continued and was responded to is now milk that I can't unspill.

Thread may - may - be reopened after cleaning.

Edit - seems to me that a lot of you were enjoying a lively discussion on important issues and ought not be made to suffer for the actions of one individual.

That individual is now censured from further participation in the PCA, and that was a reflection of multiple instances of gross rules violations, not my personal politics or anything else.

I wish everyone here only the best in sorting out these important issues.

Please remember our mantras:

  • You may not like the other guy, but please be polite.
  • Please attack issues and not other posters here.
    • Attack the ideas, but not the person possessing them.
  • It's ok to agree to disagree and that's a far better course than resorting to pointless invective.


Thread = opened.

Cheers, thanks.
 
The timing of these events is turning out to be very suspicious – all in the months before the election. If knowledge of any of them popped up back then, no telling who gets elected... I hope I’m stating the obvious.
 
Define conspiracy, then look at his presidency, including who and what has been happening and then get back to us.
 
I said ‘events,’ not ‘conspiracy’ or ‘theory.’ I wasn’t even the person that titled this thread with that word – AF merged two threads, used the other’s title and put my post on top.

The details of the events themselves are not nearly as important as the way they’re trickling out, and that’s how those other words pop up.
 
Benjie said:
Define conspiracy, then look at his presidency, including who and what has been happening and then get back to us.
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One can connect all sorts of random events and dots together and find a reason to believe something that should not be considered.

All I can say is "you are not even wrong."
 
jefboyardee said:
Barack Milhous Nixon... some of us see the similarities.

Fast forward four decades, and our 44th president, Barack Obama, and his administration are taking a page from the Nixon playbook by targeting their political enemies in the Tea Party. Richard Milhous Nixon must be blushing.
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How dare you. Nixon was far more entertaining than Obama will ever be.
 
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