M
Member243850
Guest
I'm not big on news like this but, I think this photo speaks 1000 words;
Wow that is so true!
+ 1
-
After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.
"Occupy Wallstreet" Video
- Thread starter OutofDate1980
- Start date
Wow that is so true!
+ 1
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
The protests of late seem to be turning more violent in several places. Does this change anyone's opinions?
andruoid
Android Expert
i don't know what the situation is like in other cities but here in Vancouver, Canada there have been 2-3 deaths; all do to drugs. Basically, we have a bunch of people occupying public land in the downtown core who set up a tent city. People are out in the open, getting loaded and using whatever reason the "Occupy _insert city here_" has as an excuse to stay.
On top of that, we have a wimpy bike pedaling mayor who has taken no action. Also, public services such as fire dept, police, ambulance and city workers are all on stand-by if something happens. What a waste of tax payers money.
On top of that, we have a wimpy bike pedaling mayor who has taken no action. Also, public services such as fire dept, police, ambulance and city workers are all on stand-by if something happens. What a waste of tax payers money.
T
TxGoat
Guest
I watched 60 minutes today and saw how politicians make money on the stock market based on information that they get from their legislation and from "insider" tips. An example is Nancy Pelosi was offered stock in Visa around the same time there was a bill being proposed about changing the credit card laws. She made several thousand dollars on the stock transaction and the bill didn't pass until a few years later. There's apparently a lot of that going on in our nation's capital. I think those that are occupying Wall Street need to focus their efforts elsewhere. I don't so much blame these large corporations for trying to make their money, I blame our system for allowing large corporations to have such an influence on our policy makers. Here's the whole story from 60 minutes. Congress: Trading stock on inside information? - CBS News
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
Is it just me or are the character criticisms of the protestors a bit.... unfair? Are they supposed to be raising their own sheep and weaving their own wool sacks? Wouldnt they be called dirty hippies then? Anywho.... (I still laugh at them though heh)
If you thought that society, government, election process, and financial systems were fundamentally flawed systems designed to protect the system itself, what would you do about it?
(Side note: I haven't really followed this too closely either but I'd probably identify with some of the protesters.)
Anywho, ultimately I'd love to see libertarian and liberal/socialist ideals come together. I know that sounds like I just said I wish fire and water could come together...but bear with me.
I think both sides see different sides of the same coin. Ultimately Liberals and Socialists want regulation and government programs, while Libertarians are anti-regulation (generally) and want the freedom to spend as they see fit.
Both ideas make sense to me, so I realized it might just be that both side are looking for EFFECTIVE regulation. EFFECTIVE governance and election systems and social programs. If things were effective and efficient, and didn't mandate behavior (don't get me started on how healthcare reform was the worst of both worlds).... then I think we'd have a basis for something great: A stable platform for individuals to freely take risks as entrepenuers and that creative destruction of capitalism and competition.
But this is just me. I feel like both sides probably agree that fundamentally some of these systems are not working. One side wants to dismantle, the other wants to increase. Maybe, we could fix instead?
Imagine anti-trust breaking up banks before "too big too fail" etc...
But the problem is, how do we achieve this? For that I dont have an answer.
I do recommend this highly entertaining film: VODO - The Yes Men Fix The World - P2P Edition (2010) ? by The Yes Men
It's called "The Yes Men Fix The World" and it's free (they encourage you to torrent it).
If you thought that society, government, election process, and financial systems were fundamentally flawed systems designed to protect the system itself, what would you do about it?
(Side note: I haven't really followed this too closely either but I'd probably identify with some of the protesters.)
Anywho, ultimately I'd love to see libertarian and liberal/socialist ideals come together. I know that sounds like I just said I wish fire and water could come together...but bear with me.
I think both sides see different sides of the same coin. Ultimately Liberals and Socialists want regulation and government programs, while Libertarians are anti-regulation (generally) and want the freedom to spend as they see fit.
Both ideas make sense to me, so I realized it might just be that both side are looking for EFFECTIVE regulation. EFFECTIVE governance and election systems and social programs. If things were effective and efficient, and didn't mandate behavior (don't get me started on how healthcare reform was the worst of both worlds).... then I think we'd have a basis for something great: A stable platform for individuals to freely take risks as entrepenuers and that creative destruction of capitalism and competition.
But this is just me. I feel like both sides probably agree that fundamentally some of these systems are not working. One side wants to dismantle, the other wants to increase. Maybe, we could fix instead?
Imagine anti-trust breaking up banks before "too big too fail" etc...
But the problem is, how do we achieve this? For that I dont have an answer.
I do recommend this highly entertaining film: VODO - The Yes Men Fix The World - P2P Edition (2010) ? by The Yes Men
It's called "The Yes Men Fix The World" and it's free (they encourage you to torrent it).
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
If true, then it's illegal. Insider trading is illegal. There are penalties for such things and the SEC regularly punishes brokers, CEOS and other execs who are caught doing it. Knowing about a bill on capital hill and making investing decisions based on that is not insider trading as bills being proposed/debated are public knowledge.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Anywho, ultimately I'd love to see libertarian and liberal/socialist ideals come together. I know that sounds like I just said I wish fire and water could come together...but bear with me.
I don't think libertarians are going to jump on this movement any time soon. Mainly because of some of the things the people in the movement are criticizing and some of the reforms they want. Libertarians tend to be big on personal responsibility and more likely to tell you to go get a job doing something, anything at all rather than tell you to go protest because you're unemployed. A libertarian is more likely to toss papers in the morning, flip burgers in the afternoon and deliver pizzas in the evening and struggle to get by than they are to go protest the fact that they are underemployed. The I am the 53% movement is more of a libertarian/conservative movement. If you want to talk about inequality, there it is. Half the people in this country are working to support the other half. The ones not paying taxes are out protesting the fact that those who are paying taxes aren't paying enough. That's what is utterly bizarre about the whole thing.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Regulations and government services should be used to give more freedom - freedom to be healthy, get an education, support your family, set up a business, access information, hire staff, fire staff, not be the victim of a crime, not to be surrounded by disease, breathe clean air, be free from oppression, etc
IMO, you trade a little freedom for a lot more
IMO, you trade a little freedom for a lot more
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Half the population of the US arent doing 99% of the work
If earning was based on raw hard work tthe highest earners in the world would be East African women
T
TxGoat
Guest
I don't think the system would be called into question if people were judged based on their abilities and not based on who their father is or who they know on the inside. When someone claims that it's all about hard work and dedication then I bring up George W. Bush. He didn't have the best grades to get into Yale but his father paid to get him in, he avoided being deployed to war because his father pulled some strings, all his failed businesses would've had him living in a homeless shelter by now but his father pulled strings there as well. He's proof that you can always have your success bought for you by your big daddy and while daddy sits you on top those that should climb to the top are left wondering why their hard work didn't pay off for them.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Half the population of the US arent doing 99% of the work
If earning was based on raw hard work tthe highest earners in the world would be East African women
Half of the US population is paying no taxes at all. In fact, of those half a lot of them are not only paying no taxes, but they're getting all kinds of subsidies as well so they are actually getting money back without paying anything in. Who is paying for these subsidies? It's (in large part) the very people those of the OWS movement are protesting. Yet, statistically, half of those protesters are not paying any taxes at all but are claiming that those at the top should pay more taxes than they're currently paying.
T
TxGoat
Guest
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
If true, the irony is richer. You have people protesting, half of whom are paying no taxes and some of whom are paying no taxes and getting government kickbacks, and they are out protesting the fact that corporations are paying no taxes and getting kickbacks.
T
TxGoat
Guest
The problem with the numbers behind "the rich are paying %% percentage of tax while the poor are paying % percentage of tax" is that there's so much discrepancy between how much more the rich are earning vs everyone else. As an example, if the richest people's salaries doubled in 20 years while the middle class and everyone below had their salary climb 3% in that same time then the numbers are misleading. I'll gladly pay more in taxes if my salary climbed at the rate of the richest Americans.
Below is what the CEO of GE made in 2010. If he wants to pay less in taxes then he should bump his salary down to about $20,000 a year. I don't see it happening though.
http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/ceou/database.cfm
Take a look at some of the salaries out there. Granted I'm sure some will think it's unreliable information because it's a union website. If you have other sources then I'm definitely opened to them.
Google's CEO is much more modest.
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
This is untrue, something perpetuated by cherry-picked data from 2009. The "half" number comes from single-filers federal income tax durring a recession year. Those people still paid FICA taxes, sales taxes, state taxes, local taxes, etc.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Authorities are clearing out the parks in several places leading to clashes with protesters. 70 arrests in NYC.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
This is why I am careful to point out almost half of the US population pay no Federal Income Tax. Certainly, we all pay some form of tax regardless of our tax bracket; a bum on the street buying a Starbucks with my seven dollars pays tax.
The fact still remains: nearly half pay no Federal Tax and the top percentile pay the most. Can't argue; the data is from the department of internal revenue.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
And Steve Jobs, ruler of a corporation larger than GE or Google was paid a dollar a year.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
The wealthy at the top are not protesting and claiming they should pay less taxes. They're not protesting at all. Instead you have those who are paying no taxes AND getting kick backs from the government screaming that the wealthy should be taxed even more so that they can get even more kick backs.
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
The fact remains that any intelligent discussion of taxation includes the total tax burden, as well as a lot of other relevant information. Including income earned by the various percentiles, the recession, what tax breaks came into effect, (EITC and Child Tax credit), as well as the diminishing marginal utility of income and many more advanced concepts.
Would you find it helpful to discuss public policy if all you knew was one fact? You think decisions should be made based on how much left-handed people paid 2 years ago?
The fact remains that it's not the whole picture. It's a cherry picked talking point meant to evoke the image that half of these protesters are lazy (And c'mon Bob -- You're a sharp guy, you know that it is).
You even use the same tactic with the imagery of a bum spending your seven dollars on something excessive.
This is the problem. We need to get past past that lazy-person-boogeyman. Some imaginary abominable snowman who's snorting coke with rolled up $100 bills they got from welfare.
It disingenuous. And really pointless to debate.
Anyhow, just a few more "facts" to drive this home because I should duck out of this thread before I get in too deep (I know, too late)
24% of the population is under 18.
13% over 65.
- Source: Census Bureau
Misconceptions and Realities About Who Pays Taxes — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
Nice for him that he only had to pay 15% on his long term cap gains....
So TL;DR:
I really think liberals and libertarians should come together on this issue. At the very least we can agree the current system is flawed. If we can fix the loopholes, that would at least be closer to what both want: be it extreme progressive taxation or a flat tax. But if the debate is sidetracked by "he's a dirty hippy, he's wearing a jcrew (corporate) t-shirt" then we're all just going 'round the merry go round.
If we cant find common ground and work together but instead denigrate our opponents with puerile nonsense, then we're never going to make any progress...
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Everyone agrees that the system is flawed. Liberals, conservatives, libertarians, socialists and everyone in between think the system is flawed at the least and terribly broken at the worst. No one thinks the system works. The problem is no one is even close to agreeing on how to fix it and many of the people who are most vehement and vocal about fixing the system have no clue how it works in the first place.
One of the things many of the OWS protesters want is to get rid of federally backed student loans. Problem is the reason these loans were put in place in the first place is that students either couldn't get loans at all or they were gouged with high interest rates. How long will it be before the OWS people screams for federally backed loans because no one can get a loan any more? The hypocrisy of the people protesting is an entirely different issue.
One of the things many of the OWS protesters want is to get rid of federally backed student loans. Problem is the reason these loans were put in place in the first place is that students either couldn't get loans at all or they were gouged with high interest rates. How long will it be before the OWS people screams for federally backed loans because no one can get a loan any more? The hypocrisy of the people protesting is an entirely different issue.
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
I hear ya, I just think both sides have some good ideas and I wish we could find some common ground
I know it's a bit pipe-dream-esqe, but I figure it's always worth talking about at least.Huhwha? Really? This sounds so backwards from their usual ideals.
Or do you mean they want student loans to have debt forgiven/amnesty?
Got link? I've been looking through the thread for the demands link but am coming up with odd stuff.
Check this out for instance: (this is a link you posted earlier, apparently it's possible Fox news false flag/astroturfing)
Forum Post: Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
I've heard the abolishment of federally backed student loans from protesters as well as more federally backed student loans. I've heard the forgiveness of debt. I've heard the opposition to the forgiveness of debt. This is also one of the big problems for the movement - they have no clear voice. No one knows what they really want and some people wonder if even they do. Without a clear voice and a clear message no change is going to happen. Yet the movement makes it perfectly clear that there is no official list of demands and likely will not be and this is by design. As I've said before, they've put themselves in the position where they can criticize any and all changes that are made. If they forgave all student loan debt tomorrow and no one ever lent another dime to a student, the OWS people could scream about it. If they started loaning even more money to students and buried people under even more debt the OWS people could scream about that too.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
I think the movement is more opposed to things then offering solutions to the problems.
The financial system is clearly screwed up and clearly needs restructuring at a global level, and a lot more oversight is needed. The financial industry should be about trading and investing, not speculating wildly and gambling.
The financial system is clearly screwed up and clearly needs restructuring at a global level, and a lot more oversight is needed. The financial industry should be about trading and investing, not speculating wildly and gambling.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Apparently there is much dissension in the movement at present over demands. One group seems to think that the group needs to present some demands or the cops will continue to break them up and send them on their way as just a pack of vagrants. Another school of thought is completely opposed to offering any demands at all because they fear that if they do so the demands will be dismissed out of hand, roundly criticized and the group will go down in failure.