Official 4G/WiMax: what is it, why do we want it

[billsmed]

1.) You can not scare me off.
2.) I would prefer if we just ignore what I do for a living.
3.) I am not going to tell you what is not already published on the internet. I like my job.
4.) It is called MIMO.

I didn't mean to put you on the spot RiverOfIce. Obviously you know your stuff and that's why I figure you're working in the field. I find your posts extremely interesting and very much worth reading, so thank you for contributing more today. I look forward to seeing more of what you have to say in the future.

Bill

 

[dandm4life]

Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.

This makes a lot of sense based on what I know of the clearwire business model and what they are doing in our area. Thanks for the information.

 

[twospirits]

Although the article was written back in Feb of this year, it still provides some insight on the growth of WiMax around the world. I especially find interesting the coverage map.


(Click on image for full view)

TS out

 

[dylan88]

nothing in florida

 

[RiverOfIce]

1. LTE deployment? - Not happening until late this year and that's just a beginning...Sprint has a big head start with WiMax deployment.

Sorry to derail the thread again. But I need to make sure this is understood.

They are deploying LTE NOT LTE-A.

They are only deploying pre lte service. This is not 4g service. It will only be 3.5g service.

Verizon can not and will not bring LTE-A for many years.

If you want to do some reading on it.

Verizon will be using 3g LTE. Then upgrade to LTE-advance.

They are doing this because they told everyone that LTE-advance has minimal cost. Except laying the fiber to the towers.

Which is the other reason Sprint went with wimax, because with wimax, you have to build the receiver/transmitter and lay the fiber. The receiver/transmitter cost about 150 to 300 Euro. The fiber cost thousands.

LTE costs about the same per transmitter/receiver. But they are going to slowly lay the fiber.

So when you have wimax, you have a tower with fiber laid.= max speed.

With LTE you may or may not have the fiber layed and you are only going to get 3.5g speeds.

In the end it does not matter, 4g-3.5g-3g are marketing terms.

 

[stkshooter]

LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.

Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, by the current cellphones.

Thanks RiverOfIce

Anyone who thinks LTE is going to be the end of Wimax doesn't get it yet.

Wimax is going to change the world as we know it.

Think Syfy

This is what I have been waiting for, plus a phone that could use it.

Finally!!! you are the first person here who truely understands the battery demands using the EVO 4g with Wimax.

If people are still comparing cell phones 3g / LTE, your thinking WAY too small here people. Wimax is past being about only cell phones.

The gov. is pushing this too, so it has a lot of help rising to the top.

 

[RiverOfIce]

so what sort of speed does "3.5" have? this is the first ive ever heard of that. Please link.

Fast enough to max almost any phone out, but in practice quite a bit less.

2g, 3g, 3.5g, and 4g are marketing terms.

They do not actually mean anything.

The question of speed depends soo much on soo many things.

Here is a test for you. Go to speakeasy.com.

Do a internet test at 12-4am, 8-10am, 4-8pm.

Now tell me is it remotely close to what your internet provider tells you it is?

No it is not.

Let me explain this clearly. LTE promises a 1Gbps connection. The Incredible, even though it is a great phone. Can only do 7 mbps down and 3 mbps up. So will the evo and most newier cell phones. So if it is above 7 mbps down it is really pointless, because the phone can not keep up with the signal.

Now 7 mbps down is faster then most home connections.

The other issue is of speed.

The 3g tech specs says up to 14mbps down. Which again, if used to the max would out preform any cell phone on the market. But want is the usually max speed of a 3g connection? 1.1mbps? Maybe?

So does it really matter? What 3g or 4g is? What claimed speed is?

I can say I can travel faster then the speed of light, but only on the 3 sunday of every month ending in the letter Q. Does that help at all?

I can claim I can scream to Tokyo as long as there is no clouds between me and Tokyo. Does that mean anything?

The speeds that are promised will never be met. Ever.

For 99.99999999999% of the people a 1mbps connection will be faster then their home connections, and do anything they want.

I mean what are you going to do with it? Download a HD Movie to your cellphone? Ok with wimax and 3g lte it will take between 10-40 mins depending on where you are, what the network load will be, and the connection between the base station and the download site. If the download site is crawling at 1mbps. Guess what? You are crawling at 1mbps.


There is no magic bullet.

 

[Norril]

1.) You can not scare me off.
2.) I would prefer if we just ignore what I do for a living.
3.) I am not going to tell you what is not already published on the internet. I like my job.
4.) It is called MIMO.

Multiple in's multiple out's.

MIMO is fully supported by wimax, It can connect up to 20??? (think the current number is 5) different towers at the same time. *cough*battery life *cough*

If you decided to go to let says http://androidforums.com/. The wimax chip will tell all the towers to go to the same site. Lets say 5 towers. The signal strength and server load will determine which towers get what part of the site. Like bit torrent, the site is broken into many smaller parts. The faster connections get the most data. The slower either gets turned off or smaller data parts.

The device then reassembles the site like a numbered jigsaw puzzle.

Making it blazing fast with a lot of towers.

Which means that if you are in starbucks. You are still drawing from star bucks, sprint, comcast and any other wimax towers in range. If you leave starbucks you will still use starbucks until out of range then you will turn off that channel or find a new one. Streaming will not stop or slow.


The downside is the faster you go, the less towers you can use. You travel too far out of range too quickly. Which in theory would slow your connection, but, but, I have not seen this. Of course there is NOT a large number of towers to choose from.

The second issue is battery life. The more towers that you connect to. The worst your battery life. Which is not an issue. Because you are currently unlikely to be in range of more then 2 or 3 towers at one time.

In theory MiMo is supported by lte. But lte has some connections issues right now. It has a hard time finding one tower standing still. BUT wimax had the same problem at the same stage of development.

And some of the older wimax chips still do have problems finding towers standing still.

SWEET! Thank yo for this! Now, will we have user control to determine max number of towers? How about traffic that is not normally chopped up and reassembled, like RDP/ICA, voice and video? Will you be able to jump from tower to tower, going down the freeway and keep a steady stream on those?

I guess I should just go read up, but I imagine everyone here may be interested.

 

[billsmed]

I agree with you Norril. I find RiverOfIce's comments very interesting. Someone said they weren't interested in the technology part, but this is something worth while reading.

As far as the rest of the speculation here about 3G/4G thing, Hesse said during his keynote that there wouldn't be any extra charges for 4G right now, but that could change in the future. He said that eventually instead of talking minutes that we'd be talking GB's of data. I took it that he was talking about a time when we all might be using the phone to make calls over VoIP. I could see where that would use a lot of data. Also, if you're tethering a lot of devices to the EVO 4G and everyone is on the Internet maybe downloading a movie or whatever that you're going to eat a lot of data. It's something we'll all have to consider in the future, but right now, I don't see any extra charges. I can certainly see what Sprint is thinking about in the future. Hesse also said that there is plenty of spectrum with WiMAX to handle it. If you read what RiverOfIce has said, you'll see that LTE won't have the bandwidth to handle the operations I just mentioned.

 

[RiverOfIce]

SWEET! Thank yo for this! Now, will we have user control to determine max number of towers? How about traffic that is not normally chopped up and reassembled, like RDP/ICA, voice and video? Will you be able to jump from tower to tower, going down the freeway and keep a steady stream on those?

I guess I should just go read up, but I imagine everyone here may be interested.

In order, probably not, probably not, and yes. 1) probably not, no reason they could not, besides someone hosing their system. If you are in range of more then 5 towers, you are in a very rare event. The software in the base stations and your phone will be able to handle the networks better then you can. 2.) Probably not, and no really reason to do it. One tower should provide you with more then enough connection to max out the 10mbps connection of the EVO. 3.) Definitely. With out a doubt, 100% guaranteed to do. Have done it personally. I have had a video conversation at 720p going 120 kph down the freeway with a other person traveling 80 kph another freeway, 3000 km away. Both using wimax cards, with out a hitch. WE WHERE NOT DRIVING. But that is with normal usb wimax cards not a phone.

 

[Android 17]

I really like being here b/c not only do we talk about the evo but we share good thoughts and opinions and knowledge is contagious!! We learn about wimax, LTE and lots more while making bonds and friendships along the way!!!

All that's left is to hold hands and sing Hakuna Matata.

But seriously, it's been interesting following this thread, even if it does seem to go off-topic at times.

However, learning more about LTE and Wimax has been very interesting, not just in terms of the EVO, but of the technology will affect the world as a whole in the near future.

 

[andiron]

Fast enough to max almost any phone out, but in practice quite a bit less.

2g, 3g, 3.5g, and 4g are marketing terms.

They do not actually mean anything.

The question of speed depends soo much on soo many things.

Here is a test for you. Go to speakeasy.com.

Do a internet test at 12-4am, 8-10am, 4-8pm.

Now tell me is it remotely close to what your internet provider tells you it is?

No it is not.

Let me explain this clearly. LTE promises a 1Gbps connection. The Incredible, even though it is a great phone. Can only do 7 mbps down and 3 mbps up. So will the evo and most newier cell phones. So if it is above 7 mbps down it is really pointless, because the phone can not keep up with the signal.

Now 7 mbps down is faster then most home connections.

The other issue is of speed.

The 3g tech specs says up to 14mbps down. Which again, if used to the max would out preform any cell phone on the market. But want is the usually max speed of a 3g connection? 1.1mbps? Maybe?

So does it really matter? What 3g or 4g is? What claimed speed is?

I can say I can travel faster then the speed of light, but only on the 3 sunday of every month ending in the letter Q. Does that help at all?

I can claim I can scream to Tokyo as long as there is no clouds between me and Tokyo. Does that mean anything?

The speeds that are promised will never be met. Ever.

For 99.99999999999% of the people a 1mbps connection will be faster then their home connections, and do anything they want.

I mean what are you going to do with it? Download a HD Movie to your cellphone? Ok with wimax and 3g lte it will take between 10-40 mins depending on where you are, what the network load will be, and the connection between the base station and the download site. If the download site is crawling at 1mbps. Guess what? You are crawling at 1mbps.


There is no magic bullet.

This post has been bothering me a little....and I've read it 3 times to make sure I understand....but I guess I'm still a little confused. So please let me know if I understand this correctly.....

According to this post it sounds like there won't be a phone INCLUDING THE EVO 4G...that can take advantage of even the speeds promised by 3G. Do I understand correctly?

If this is true....then WiMax has no true speed advantage over 3G or the competition. It sounds like to me that what RiverOFIce is saying is that 3G is already faster than the capabilities of any current phone...including the EVO 4G.

So to take this a step further...then what would be the advantage of going with Sprint and the EVO? I would think that the only advantages would be the phone itself or the less expensive plan pricing.

Did I misunderstand? I feel as though I must have misunderstood because I expected WiMax to be super fast...and that the EVO 4G would take full advantage of this speed leaving all other phones in the dust.

 

[SprintFun]

This post has been bothering me a little....and I've read it 3 times to make sure I understand....but I guess I'm still a little confused. So please let me know if I understand this correctly.....

According to this post it sounds like there won't be a phone INCLUDING THE EVO 4G...that can take advantage of even the speeds promised by 3G. Do I understand correctly?

If this is true....then WiMax has no true speed advantage over 3G or the competition. It sounds like to me that what RiverOFIce is saying is that 3G is already faster than the capabilities of any current phone...including the EVO 4G.

So to take this a step further...then what would be the advantage of going with Sprint and the EVO? I would think that the only advantages would be the phone itself or the less expensive plan pricing.

Did I misunderstand? I feel as though I must have misunderstood because I expected WiMax to be super fast...and that the EVO 4G would take full advantage of this speed leaving all other phones in the dust.

Its true, but 4g is still significantly faster than 3g. 4g will be limited by the same percentage that 3g is, but 4g has a significantly higher cap - does that make sense?

Hypothetically, you are limited to 50% of the max speed on both 3G and 4G. 3G has a "cap" of 2mpbs, so you are realistically limited to 1mpbs. 4G has a "cap" of 10mbps, so you are realistically limited to 5mbps.

These numbers are completely made up, just to try and illustrate my point. So if your realistic speed on 4g does not hit the cap of 3g, its still significantly faster because your 3g speed was no where near the cap either.

 

[Outrigger]

Its true, but 4g is still significantly faster than 3g. 4g will be limited by the same percentage that 3g is, but 4g has a significantly higher cap - does that make sense?

Hypothetically, you are limited to 50% of the max speed on both 3G and 4G. 3G has a "cap" of 2mpbs, so you are realistically limited to 1mpbs. 4G has a "cap" of 10mbps, so you are realistically limited to 5mbps.

These numbers are completely made up, just to try and illustrate my point. So if your realistic speed on 4g does not hit the cap of 3g, its still significantly faster because your 3g speed was no where near the cap either.

I agree with your post in explaining the limits. Let me give another example.

I had Road Runner promising me 10 down and 5 up via its cable modem and I was only hitting maybe 1 down and .5 up. Now that I switched to Verizon Fios, the plan is 15 down and 5 up and I'm hitting far more than 1 down and .5 up. Regardless of which plan you go with you will NEVER EVER hit the theoretical speed since that requires a controlled environment in a lab which is night and day vs. the real world.

So while your actual speed on 4G might be even be close to the cap of 3G, your actual speed will STILL be faster than what you can achieve with real world 3G speed. 4G will be faster, but it will still depend on the time of day, how congested the network is, how your signal is....etc. too many variables to list. Just don't expect a night and day difference because when you actually use it you'll be disappointed.

 

[billsmed]

This post has been bothering me a little....and I've read it 3 times to make sure I understand....but I guess I'm still a little confused. So please let me know if I understand this correctly.....

I fully appreciate what RiverOfIce and SprintFun are saying, but the technical details make my head swim a little. In layman's terms, Sprint has said 4G is up to 10 times faster than 3G. You see that claim all over their website, but still, the 10 times part is only theoretical. One thing I've read over and over is that with WiMAX, you can expect to reach speeds that rival DSL and Cable on your desktop computer.

 

[SprintFun]

I really don't know all the technical details either - all I know is internet providers lie their their teeth, and 3g claims to speed are equally as shady as 4g ones, but 4g is in fact faster in a real world application

 

[PyroSporker]

I fully appreciate what RiverOfIce and SprintFun are saying, but the technical details make my head swim a little. In layman's terms, Sprint has said 4G is up to 10 times faster than 3G. You see that claim all over their website, but still, the 10 times part is only theoretical. One thing I've read over and over is that with WiMAX, you can expect to reach speeds that rival DSL and Cable on your desktop computer.

Yeah, technical details can be overwhelming sometimes. You seem to have a good grasp on what they are saying though.

Basically I think RiverofIce and SprintFun are trying to caution us about buying into the 4G hype machine, and not to get expectations too high. It may come across as negativity or bad talk, but I think it is very wise advice to think realistically about the speeds we will actually be getting on a day to day basis; especially right after launch.

Like you say Bill, I think DSL or Cable Speeds are fairly reasonable estimates and not out of the question, but for anyone to expect too much more than that at this point early in the 4G game (be it Wimax/LTE/HDSPA; whatever your flavor ends up being) is a recipe for disaster.

 

[RiverOfIce]

According to this post it sounds like there won't be a phone INCLUDING THE EVO 4G...that can take advantage of even the speeds promised by 3G. Do I understand correctly?

If this is true....then WiMax has no true speed advantage over 3G or the competition. It sounds like to me that what RiverOFIce is saying is that 3G is already faster than the capabilities of any current phone...including the EVO 4G.

Ok. First. The the lie that you believed.

Let me make this clear.

Any smart phone that has a 3g connection is capped at 3Mbs. By hardware, the hardware can not go faster. Period.

The 3g standard states.

[/b]3G systems can offer practice of up to 14.0 Mbps on the downlink and 5.8 Mbps on the uplink."

* 4G data speeds (WiMAX)

 

[billsmed]

Yeah, technical details can be overwhelming sometimes. You seem to have a good grasp on what they are saying though.

Basically I think RiverofIce and SprintFun are trying to caution us about buying into the 4G hype machine, and not to get expectations too high. It may come across as negativity or bad talk, but I think it is very wise advice to think realistically about the speeds we will actually be getting on a day to day basis; especially right after launch.

Like you say Bill, I think DSL or Cable Speeds are fairly reasonable estimates and not out of the question, but for anyone to expect too much more than that at this point early in the 4G game (be it Wimax/LTE/HDSPA; whatever your flavor ends up being) is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think speed is all what WiMAX is about. This article appeared in the WiFi Planet a couple of weeks ago at CTIA: Slow Going for Clearwire, But CEO's Optimistic - www.wi-fiplanet.com.

Hesse didn't waste any time reminding attendees of what he called Sprint Nextel's "very strong spectrum position" and the fact that his company was the first of the major carriers to embrace 4G technologies and the WiMAX standard that it hopes will forever change the way consumers and businesses view their voice and data plans.

"Just as the economics of voice got better, with 4G we're going to produce a gigabyte of video content cheaper and give it to people easier," Hesse said. "Two years from now, the rate plans discussion will change from the number of minutes in a bucket or the number of text messages in your plan to how many gigabytes will be in your bucket. That will determine the pricing tiers and market segments."

Hesse and Marrow both kept stressing "spectrum" at CTIA. They said they had plenty of it. From my view, that's how they're able to run 8 WiFi devices tethered from the EVO 4G. On Verizon's 3G it wouldn't be possible. They don't even want you to tether your laptop to your phone.

Without a doubt, you will get higher speeds and more spectrum with 4G and right now Sprint is the only carrier to offer it. From what we're learning here in this forum, I don't think Verizon will ever catch up. I keep saying that people are going to be clamoring for the EVO 4G and Sprint's WiMAX service and Sprint is going to get a lot of their customers back.

 

[PyroSporker]

I don't think speed is all what WiMAX is about. This article appeared in the WiFi Planet a couple of weeks ago at CTIA: Slow Going for Clearwire, But CEO's Optimistic - www.wi-fiplanet.com.

Interesting article Bill, it makes me look at it more from a business minded perspective. Maybe speed isn't Sprint's number one concern after all. On the outside it seems that "blazing fast speeds" is what they are stressing, and thats what most consumers are going to go for initially. (Obviously there are some out there that are fixated on the speed factor alone, and want to examine and tear down all options).

Without a doubt, you will get higher speeds and more spectrum with 4G and right now Sprint is the only carrier to offer it. From what we're learning here in this forum, I don't think Verizon will ever catch up. I keep saying that people are going to be clamoring for the EVO 4G and Sprint's WiMAX service and Sprint is going to get a lot of their customers back.

I think you are right on, maybe Sprint is using speed and the first '4G' offering as the way to get people back in the doors and back into the Sprint camp. Once they have consumers back in their camp they can offer them a better overall experience (via 'spectrum'), and help build and retain the customer relationship. Early bird gets the worm mentality. And then quality vs. quantity to sustain.

I guess it isn't just an Evolution for us, an Evolution in hardware/software, or an Evolution for the mobile world. I think it is an Evolution for Sprint overall as a business well.

 

[nx25]

If I were to, HYPOTHETICALLY (since we can't do it yet) lay an Incredible (on Verizon) down on the table next to an EVO 4G (on Sprint in a WiMax area)....and then click on the same link on both phones at the same time...which phone would get me to the web site faster?

Okay, and not just which one is faster...but how much faster? Is it negligible...or quite noticeable?

THANKS!!!

Sprint claims their 4G service will download between 3 megabit and 6 megabit per second (vs .6 to 1.7 megabit for 3G). These are hypothetical, I get around 400-500 kb/sec here in Arizona on 3G with Sprint. Some on Verizon claim they get around 800-1000 kb/sec.

With that being said, people are claiming between 2 and 3 megabit/second download speeds all around on WiMAX. Obviously they're not using a WiMAX PHONE though since that's what we're all waiting for around here.. But it's safe to say the EVO will download and display a webpage or play a youtube video at least twice as fast as on Verizon's Incredible (it's only really "incredible" to those unaware of the EVO). WiMAX Speed Test

 

[RiverOfIce]

If I were to, HYPOTHETICALLY (since we can't do it yet) lay an Incredible (on Verizon) down on the table next to an EVO 4G (on Sprint in a WiMax area)....and then click on the same link on both phones at the same time...which phone would get me to the web site faster?

No one can answer that question. No one. That so depends on current internet traffic, cell phone signal, and current cell phone use. That it would be impossible to give you a straight answer. If you assumed that everything is perfect. No lag on the server side. The server is perfect in every aspect. That there is over use on the signal line. Then the Evo would be atleast 3x and probably 10x quicker then the other. But you see. Even with a 100Mbps fiber line to your pc, it is completely possible for the same file to only slower on the fiber line. There are so many variables to that question, you can only say in a perfect world it would be about 3x quicker, if not more. But youtube does have server issues. One video being watched by 100,000 people is going to slow down, because the server can not keep up. But give all results. The slowest wimax connection will be quicker then the fastest 3g connection.

 

[nx25]

No one can answer that question. No one. That so depends on current internet traffic, cell phone signal, and current cell phone use. That it would be impossible to give you a straight answer. If you assumed that everything is perfect. No lag on the server side. The server is perfect in every aspect. That there is over use on the signal line. Then the Evo would be atleast 3x and probably 10x quicker then the other. But you see. Even with a 100Mbps fiber line to your pc, it is completely possible for the same file to only slower on the fiber line. There are so many variables to that question, you can only say in a perfect world it would be about 3x quicker, if not more. But youtube does have server issues. One video being watched by 100,000 people is going to slow down, because the server can not keep up. But give all results. The slowest wimax connection will be quicker then the fastest 3g connection.

Good point. If only all servers were perfect.. It's funny how the advertise "10x faster" when using their low-end DL speed of .6 Mb/sec on 3G and high end DL speed of 6 Mb/sec on 4G. In reality it's going to be maybe 4 or 5x faster. And that's exciting as hell.
I can't wait to watch a woot-off on the EVO.

 

[neodorian]

That map is only accurate to a point. I've personally been using Wimax since maybe Nov-Dec of 2008 and Baltimore isn't shown on the map as having Wimax.

 

[Eguy]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've been a WinMo user for the past 4 years or so and was somewhat satisfied with WinMo when I had time to really learn how to customize and work with the OS. As the years went by, I grew tired of having to spend so much time on all of that.

I got a chance to try Android for the first time tonight, with my cousin-in-law's Motorola Droid. I can officially say that I'm HOOKED on Android and cannot wait until the EVO gets released. Just today, I couldn't pick up a call using the stupid slide to unlock that they put on the 6.5 upgraded rom. On top of that, I got another call and tried to pick up the call while my bluetooth was on (should be as simple as pressing on the call answer button on the Jawbone). Of course, that ish didn't work either.

Come June 13 or as soon as I can pick the phone up, I'll be getting rid of WinMo for good! Hopefully, there'll still be other people out there that would want to purchase my Touch Pro (especially considering the multitude of accessories I have for it). Just checked my OEM HTC Cradle package and I didn't realize that the mini-usb connecter is not removable, so I'll have to sell that along with the Touch Pro.

Anyhow, just had to share how thoroughly convinced I became once I got a chance to really sit down and try Android out and all the different functions it has. Trying the Droid also made me realize how much I'll really have to get used to having a touchscreen only phone. One of my biggest concerns was when the phone can be used in Landscape mode, but using the Droid (which has a physical qwerty), my cousin also showed me that you could go to compose a text message, turn the phone sideways to landscape, and the phone automatically adjusts. If it can do that on the Droid without actually opening up the keyboard, I'm assuming it'll be even more responsive having a touchscreen only phone.

Android 2.1 gets a big approval from me, so I can't wait to see what the EVO's finals specs are (including the OS that ends up on the phone, whether 2.1 or 2.5 or whatever).

If you think the Droid is good, you should try a Nexus One! The Snapdragon makes it fly!

LOL. Oh that is funny.... Oh I thought you where joking about the Europe/wimax thing. There is over 40 different carriers in Europe, including a massive roll out in Norway. Currenty wimax covers about 40 different cities in europe. I do not ask much, but I do ask you to check your fact, before stating them as facts.

I was talking about mobile WiMax networks. Sprint is going to be the first to have a full line of WiMax phones.