Official 4G/WiMax: what is it, why do we want it

[andiron]

I was just thinking about video chat and stuff like that and my first thought was how it will be kind of lame not being able to video call anyone since a lot of people won't have Evos. Then I started thinking about how Google ought to include APIs for Google Chat that allow video in chat sessions. Right now I use the Gmail integrated chat all the time and sometimes I fire up the webcam and video call my friends for a laugh. It would really expand the reach of any video calling if they let you do this. For as long as people have been clamoring for video iChat on the iPhone, it would be great to see that on the Evo.

You know...you're right...but on the bright side (selfishly for me! ) it will be nice that I could potentially try video chat with my wife....because we will both get the same new phone....very likely this one! So yes...it will be limited...but what if you use Skype or some other way of calling that enables video chat on a computer? Perhaps a loved one could talk to you on their computer....and see you there....and vice versa? Or maybe it will just be a one way street in that case? And will the front facing cam work for things like MSN Messenger? That would be an interesting thought....yes? Not sure I understand all the features yet as I spent most of my time lurking in the Incredible forum. Some of the possibilities sound very interesting!

 

[billsmed]

One of the things we talked about before was hooking the EVO 4G up to an HDTV via the HDMI cable. It certainly seems feasible and that way the whole family could easily be involved in a Skype call. More than likely, when the phone is released there will be some kind of built in video conferencing program. We'll have to wait and see, but it seems like the possibilities are endless.

 

[twospirits]

You know that Google API for video chat idea might just come out sooner than you think. At the rate that Google is acquiring companies for its purposes, I wouldn't doubt that it will incorporate the APIs into gmail, Gchat and YouTube. Infact today i read that Google acquired online video hosting platform Episodic.

TS

 

[neodorian]

You know that Google API for video chat idea might just come out sooner than you think. At the rate that Google is acquiring companies for its purposes, I wouldn't doubt that it will incorporate the APIs into gmail, Gchat and YouTube. Infact today i read that Google acquired online video hosting platform Episodic.

TS

They already have video chat in Gmail Chat so it would just be a matter of porting that infrastructure into the Android Google chat. Right now it just requires a browser plugin so it would be great to see the framework added to Android.

 

[Supersonical]

it has nothing to do with the SD! That is the built in ROM memory- completely independant of the SD!

Ha believe me i don't lie to you guys i tell you the truth like it is

WiMax vs. LTE: Part 3

^ this is a great site explainging why WiMAX is more valuable that LTE, it explains, in short, that WiMAX is easier for the consumer to use somehow. It is hard to explain because no LTE device exists but he says that using a wimax device is very much like a computer and that an LTE device will not be this way. Verrrryyy Interesting

Jackson

 

[reallynotnick]

WiMax vs. LTE: Part 3

^ this is a great site explainging why WiMAX is more valuable that LTE, it explains, in short, that WiMAX is easier for the consumer to use somehow. It is hard to explain because no LTE device exists but he says that using a wimax device is very much like a computer and that an LTE device will not be this way. Verrrryyy Interesting

I read this article and well maybe I missed something but I found it said nothing. Basically all he talked about is how the name sounds like WiFi, Intel backs it and young people are familiar with WiFi before they are with phones so people will like WiMax. It really didn't seem to talk about any sort of actual technological merits of either technology just how people perceive them.

 

[Supersonical]

Really Not Nick, if you continue reading, around the last paragraph or so it says that and LTE device will function differently than a WiMAX one. It will not be so second nature to use. We do not knw what this means because none exist.... GO WiMAX!!!!

Spaceshuttle? now thats chill

 

[reallynotnick]

Really Not Nick, if you continue reading, around the last paragraph or so it says that and LTE device will function differently than a WiMAX one. It will not be so second nature to use. We do not knw what this means because none exist.... GO WiMAX!!!!

All I get from the last paragraph is that besides his theory that people like the name WiMax more "positive preconception", he says that the computer industry are stronger fighters than the handset manufacturers.

The paragraph above the last one just says the name WiMax sounds more like a portable computer that fits in your pocket than LTE which sounds like a phone that is connected to the internet. Not that the technology acts differently, just that it gives an impression that it does.

The whole article seems to have no real information, it's just his opinion on how the name sounds to consumers and how strong each industry of backers are. I'm amazed he didn't talk about the font and color of the logos.

 

[billsmed]

I read this article and well maybe I missed something but I found it said nothing. Basically all he talked about is how the name sounds like WiFi, Intel backs it and young people are familiar with WiFi before they are with phones so people will like WiMax. It really didn't seem to talk about any sort of actual technological merits of either technology just how people perceive them.

reallynotnick, I have read what you and Jackson have said about the WiMax vs. LTE: Part 3 article. What I got from it is that WiMAX and LTE are opposing technologies (which we already knew) and the author, Russell Hitchcock also said that both technologies are converging. We have talked about that already in this thread and Dan Hesse talked about it in his keynote a couple of weeks ago. His message was that they could easily adapt WiMAX to LTE, if they need to, but he also said that it should be done for the good of the industry and for the good of consumers worldwide.

Hitchcock went on to say even though both technologies have a lot of support, such as Intel backing WiMAX and different handset makers like Ericsson backing LTE, he thought WiMAX would come out on top.

Verizon is the biggest backer of LTE in this country and they're trying to say LTE is superior, but it really isn't. That part is just propaganda as far as I'm concerned.

Right now, Sprint has the ONLY 4G network which they are expanding rapidly. LTE is in the beginning test stage here and I don't see it being deployed for at least a year or two. After that, it will take years to build it out. Rumors are that it will be deployed this year, but I think that's just propaganda as well. Think about it; Sprint started testing WiMAX 5 years ago and their first deployment was in Baltimore in 2008. Since WiMAX and LTE are similar, I find it hard to believe that since it has taken Sprint this long that Verizon will magically have a LTE network anytime soon.

I believe WiMAX will have a huge head start that will be difficult for Verizon to overcome. Hitchcock went on to say ""this whole competition (barring a massive mistake, or genius maneuvering) comes down to who has the favourable first impression".

Since Sprint has such a big lead in the 4G market and they will soon have the best and only 4G phone to run on it, I think WiMAX will succeed in a big way.

 

[Berner]

Since Sprint has such a big lead in the 4G market and they will soon have the best and only 4G phone to run on it, I think WiMAX will succeed in a big way.

Betamax format came first, and was arguably technically superior to VHS format. And yet today the very phrase "betamax" is used derisively to refer to failed or outdated technology. Sony's purported mishandling of betamax is one of the best-known "cautionary tales" in the tech industry.

In a standards war, its not always enough to be first or even best.

 

[billsmed]

Betamax format came first, and was arguably technically superior to VHS format. And yet today the very phrase "betamax" is used derisively to refer to failed or outdated technology. Sony's purported mishandling of betamax is one of the best-known "cautionary tales" in the tech industry.

In a standards war, its not always enough to be first or even best.

Thanks, Berner. I appreciate your input as differences of opinion are healthy, but I don't think you can justify LTE over WiMAX based on the old Betamax argument from years ago. That's just my opinion of course. Someone else here might agree with your stand.

My argument is that LTE doesn't even exist yet and it probably won't for a long time, so there's no fight. Sprint has also said they could easily adopt to LTE, if they need to. I also like their attitude that the two technologies should converge for the good of the industry and for the good of the consumer. A lot of people would love to see the EVO become a world phone.

Earlier in this thread, I made the statement that people in the LTE camp are going to be coming after WiMAX saying it's inferior, but I want people coming into this forum to know that WiMAX is good and it's probably better than LTE.

If you've been following this thread you know that I have tried hard to make this an educational and informative thread. I want people that come here to enjoy it and not be turned off because of fighting and bickering. Although I'm not an admin or a moderator, I do feel the responsibility to stay on-topic as much as possible. There's been too many other threads closed because of fighting and because the thread wandered too much. I don't want to see that same fate happen to this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I want you to feel welcome too, Berner and I don't want you to think your comments aren't important. Just the opposite. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and everyone else that has contributed here.

Bill

 

[Berner]

Thanks, Berner. I appreciate your input as differences of opinion are healthy, but I don't think you can justify LTE over WiMAX based on the old Betamax argument from years ago. That's just my opinion of course. Someone else here might agree with your stand.

What opinion? What stand? I just made an observation about standards wars, and not a very original one at that. The reality is that first or best doesn't always win out, so anyone who thinks that Wimax is going to prevail because its first or best could be standing on shaky ground. Personally, I don't yet have an opinion on the long-term viability of LTE vs. Wimax.

If you've been following this thread you know that I have tried hard to make this an educational and informative thread. I want people that come here to enjoy it and not be turned off because of fighting and bickering. Although I'm not an admin or a moderator, I do feel the responsibility to stay on-topic as much as possible. There's been too many other threads closed because of fighting and because the thread wandered too much. I don't want to see that same fate happen to this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I want you to feel welcome too, Berner and I don't want you to think your comments aren't important. Just the opposite. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and everyone else that has contributed here.

I have been following this thread, and I feel you do an excellent job as the non-official non-moderator of this thread. But if you are open to advice, I'd ask you to re-read the two paragraphs above, because to me, they sound inappropriately patronizing. Suggesting that my reply may be off-topic -- when I was simply responding to your own post -- comes across as passive-aggressive bullying. I'm sure that was not your intent, and I don't take offense easily, so its not a bother to me. However, if you'd like to address this with me further, I suggest that we both use the PM feature.

 

[billsmed]

What opinion? What stand? I just made an observation about standards wars, and not a very original one at that. The reality is that first or best doesn't always win out, so anyone who thinks that Wimax is going to prevail because its first or best could be standing on shaky ground. Personally, I don't yet have an opinion on the long-term viability of LTE vs. Wimax.



I have been following this thread, and I feel you do an excellent job as the non-official non-moderator of this thread. But if you are open to advice, I'd ask you to re-read the two paragraphs above, because to me, they sound inappropriately patronizing. Suggesting that my reply may be off-topic -- when I was simply responding to your own post -- comes across as passive-aggressive bullying. I'm sure that was not your intent, and I don't take offense easily, so its not a bother to me. However, if you'd like to address this with me further, I suggest that we both use the PM feature.

You're right, Berner. I did carry it too far and I apologize. I'll PM you in a few minutes.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.

 

[cary328is]

Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.

Yes that is correct:

Beceem's BCS500 4G modem splices WiMAX and LTE into one chip, sampling later this year -- Engadget

 

[Eguy]

Betamax format came first, and was arguably technically superior to VHS format. And yet today the very phrase "betamax" is used derisively to refer to failed or outdated technology. Sony's purported mishandling of betamax is one of the best-known "cautionary tales" in the tech industry.

In a standards war, its not always enough to be first or even best.

Thanks for not bringing the 8-track into this .

 

[billsmed]

Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.

Good info, RiverOfIce and welcome to the EVO forum. I don't want to put you on the spot, but what are your sources? Do you work for Clear or Verizon or what? Just curious...

Edit: I'm not trying to start another fight, but the WiMAX/LTE comparison has been thrown up in our faces for a long time now, mostly because they both take us to the 4G (forth generation) level. From the technical standpoint they may be completely different, but from a layman's point of view, they're not, especially when your talk competition between Verizon and Sprint on 4G.

 

[TECHMAN]

Interesting. Care to share your sources?

And welcome on your first post.

Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.

 

[billsmed]

Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

I would still like to hear from you in regards to my previous post. You had a lot of interesting things to say and I wish you'd give us more.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Interesting. Care to share your sources?

If you read both wiki articles on wimax/lte you will find most of what I have said. Becareful. The wimax wiki article has been highjacked by fanboys of lte. Notice you will find a problem with... on the wimax, but not on the lte. It is nice they would do such things.

Besides that you can go to WiMAX Forum and 4G Forums - Discuss 4G Wireless Broadband: WiMax, Sprint XOHM, Clearwire, LTE : 4Gforums.com

About bandwidth. once again the wiki...

Wimax has 2.3, 2.5 and 3.5Ghz band to use. 2.3Ghz for usa.

With each band being broken into 1.25 MHz, 5 MHz, 10 MHz or 20 MHz sub-bands (channels).

lte will only use 1.4, 3, 5, 10mhz sub-bands (channels) of the 700mhz. So given the standards.

lte will have at max- 7 sub channels. Wimax will have a max of 256 sub channels. (with only about 200 channels being used.)

But this is not on topic for this thread. Sorry for getting off topic.

 

[billsmed]

If you read both wiki articles on wimax/lte you will find most of what I have said. Becareful. The wimax wiki article has been highjacked by fanboys of lte. Notice you will find a problem with... on the wimax, but not on the lte. It is nice they would do such things.

Besides that you can go to WiMAX Forum and 4G Forums - Discuss 4G Wireless Broadband: WiMax, Sprint XOHM, Clearwire, LTE : 4Gforums.com

About bandwidth. once again the wiki...

Wimax has 2.3, 2.5 and 3.5Ghz band to use. 2.3Ghz for usa.

With each band being broken into 1.25 MHz, 5 MHz, 10 MHz or 20 MHz sub-bands (channels).

lte will only use 1.4, 3, 5, 10mhz sub-bands (channels) of the 700mhz. So given the standards.

lte will have at max- 7 sub channels. Wimax will have a max of 256 sub channels. (with only about 200 channels being used.)

But this is not on topic for this thread. Sorry for getting off topic.

No, no, no, not at all. This is the EVO 4g / WiMAX thread. You seem to be the most knowledgeable of anyone that has come through here on 4G. That's why I asked in my post if your work for Sprint, Clear, Verizon or what? Usually people don't come through with that much information on their first post.

 

[neodorian]

Becareful. The wimax wiki article has been highjacked by fanboys of lte.

I find it hilarious that there are wireless standard fanboys. I've noticed it's typically people who are boosters for whatever their preferred carrier plans to use. I wonder how many are industry folks trying to sway the debate and how many are just typical geeks debating the pros and cons of any technology. Either way, it seems like the web discussion forums amplify this tendency to splinter off into opposing groups. Maybe another example of the Greater Internet Farkwad Theory...

http://ramblingfish.com/__oneclick_uploads/2008/09/20040319h.jpg (NSFW language)

 

[Norril]

Good info, RiverOfIce and welcome to the EVO forum. I don't want to put you on the spot, but what are your sources? Do you work for Clear or Verizon or what? Just curious...

Edit: I'm not trying to start another fight, but the WiMAX/LTE comparison has been thrown up in our faces for a long time now, mostly because they both take us to the 4G (forth generation) level. From the technical standpoint they may be completely different, but from a layman's point of view, they're not, especially when your talk competition between Verizon and Sprint on 4G.

Bill, I think he is spot on with this. WiMax is technically the next gen of WiFi, adding massively increaded range (something like 8 miles) and ability to move from site to site and maintain the signal. However, the site to site migration requires the same carrier to manage it, I believe. So, you could not go from a Starbucks wimax to a sprint wimax, without breaking and reconnecting. I am going off old memory on what I read on wimax a few years ago...

 

[billsmed]

Bill, I think he is spot on with this. WiMax is technically the next gen of WiFi, adding massively increaded range (something like 8 miles) and ability to move from site to site and maintain the signal. However, the site to site migration requires the same carrier to manage it, I believe. So, you could not go from a Starbucks wimax to a sprint wimax, without breaking and reconnecting. I am going off old memory on what I read on wimax a few years ago...

Norril, I agree that RiverOfIce knows his stuff. I can't fault him on anything he said. I wish he would have stuck around, because he didn't answer any of my questions. I even sent him a PM that he didn't answer. RiverOfIce registered just so he could make that post, but he didn't want to say who he worked for. I suspect he works for a LTE contractor or maybe for Verizon, but it's only a hunch. Hopefully I didn't scare him off and he'll be back. I definitely liked his post.

 

[RiverOfIce]

1.) You can not scare me off.
2.) I would prefer if we just ignore what I do for a living.
3.) I am not going to tell you what is not already published on the internet. I like my job.
4.) It is called MIMO.

Multiple in's multiple out's.

MIMO is fully supported by wimax, It can connect up to 20??? (think the current number is 5) different towers at the same time. *cough*battery life *cough*

If you decided to go to let says http://androidforums.com/. The wimax chip will tell all the towers to go to the same site. Lets say 5 towers. The signal strength and server load will determine which towers get what part of the site. Like bit torrent, the site is broken into many smaller parts. The faster connections get the most data. The slower either gets turned off or smaller data parts.

The device then reassembles the site like a numbered jigsaw puzzle.

Making it blazing fast with a lot of towers.

Which means that if you are in starbucks. You are still drawing from star bucks, sprint, comcast and any other wimax towers in range. If you leave starbucks you will still use starbucks until out of range then you will turn off that channel or find a new one. Streaming will not stop or slow.


The downside is the faster you go, the less towers you can use. You travel too far out of range too quickly. Which in theory would slow your connection, but, but, I have not seen this. Of course there is NOT a large number of towers to choose from.

The second issue is battery life. The more towers that you connect to. The worst your battery life. Which is not an issue. Because you are currently unlikely to be in range of more then 2 or 3 towers at one time.

In theory MiMo is supported by lte. But lte has some connections issues right now. It has a hard time finding one tower standing still. BUT wimax had the same problem at the same stage of development.

And some of the older wimax chips still do have problems finding towers standing still.