Osama Bin Laden is DEAD!!!

[dannymur]

Simple Osama was not a US citizen so the Constitution doesnt pertain to him. SO he doent have the right to due process and a trial of his peers

Of course Osama Bin Laden was a Terrorist and was Directing a Terrorist War against the United States and the Western World in general, in pursuit of his crazy objective to institute Fundamentalist Islamic Caliphate in the Middle East.

He was not a US citizen, AFAIK.

He was an ally of the US during the Russian/Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

He was living, at the time of his murder by US forces, in Pakistan, a Country with which the US has friendly, but strained, relations.

They are Allies in the "War on Terror".

All the above are facts.

So, by what right does a US assassination squad invade the territory of a friendly State, and summarily execute an individual, without trial or due process?

Under which provision of US Law, or International Law is this permitted?

Was the US acting in accordance with the provisions of the Geneva Convention, particularly relating to the treatment of Prisoners of War?

The US is a signatory and supporter of the above.

It evolved latterly out of the Nuremberg Trials process, which was a model of how to prosecute the likes of Bormann, Hess, Goering, and numerous other NAZI monsters.

The process was open and public,and run under proper legal procedures.

The US took a lead role in the Trials, which had the desired result of indicting and punishing those guilty of horrendous crimes against humanity.

The American Constitution does indeed give protection to non-citizens in the US, under the Fifth Amendment provisions:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Note the provisions above apply in respect of "persons" and not just "citizens".

Please feel free to respond, but do be assured, the world is a better place without the monster Bin Laden, but there should be a distinction between what he proposed and how a civilised modern Democracy responds.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Simple Osama was not a US citizen so the Constitution doesnt pertain to him. SO he doent have the right to due process and a trial of his peers

Legally, that is not true at all.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Sorry you are doing a play on words. The bill of rights are the rights of American citizens. By what you are saying any Joe from the world can come to our country and enact the bill of rights any time they want. This is not the case. If it was people which is here illegal would say they have a right to trial. They don't get a trial they are deported back to their country.

You do realize the 5th amendment is just about not self incriminating ones self. It does not give non us citizens the rights I am given lol. Nice stretch though.

Legally, that is not true at all.

Well the us gov did it so I guess its true. Lol

The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees protection of the rights of all citizens, but says nothing about non-citizens.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Sorry you are doing a play on words. The bill of rights are the rights of American citizens. By what you are saying any Joe from the world can come to our country and enact the bill of rights any time they want. This is not the case. If it was people which is here illegal would say they have a right to trial. They don't get a trial they are deported back to their country.

You could not be any more wrong. If an illegal immigrant is accused of a crime here in the US they are entitled to every single right a US citizen would be entitled to if they were accused of the exact same crime. That is a fact whether you think it is or not.

You do realize the 5th amendment is just about not self incriminating ones self. It does not give non us citizens the rights I am given lol. Nice stretch though.

Yes it does. Non citizens have the exact same Miranda rights as you do.

 

[Dark Jedi]

When Miranda is given a cop doesn't know if the person is a citizen or not. So not really a good example to give as a cop has to say it no matter whatn

 

[A.Nonymous]

When Miranda is given a cop doesn't know if the person is a citizen or not. So not really a good example to give as a cop has to say it no matter whatn

That's my point. They have the exact same rights. Legally, if an illegal immigrant is arrested for holding up a liquor store they have the exact same rights as you do if you're arrested for holding up the liquor store. Neither of you can be forced to testify against yourself or even take the stand at all. Both of you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Both of you are entitled to a lawyer the taxpayers provide for you. Both of you are entitled to a speedy jury trial. Both of you have the exact, same, identical rights.

 

[batgeek]

due process and a fair trial are extended to non-US citizens all the time. the Somali pirates and illegal aliens are examples. whether they have a right to them, via the Constitution, does not matter.

A.Nonymous is right, Dark Jedi is wrong.

 

[Dark Jedi]

That's my point. They have the exact same rights. Legally, if an illegal immigrant is arrested for holding up a liquor store they have the exact same rights as you do if you're arrested for holding up the liquor store. Neither of you can be forced to testify against yourself or even take the stand at all. Both of you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Both of you are entitled to a lawyer the taxpayers provide for you. Both of you are entitled to a speedy jury trial. Both of you have the exact, same, identical rights.

breaking the law is different than saying illegalfall under the bill of rights. I could go to egypt and break their laws and I would have to stand trial. That doesn't mean I have the same rights as their citizens. I have to answer to a crime I did.

The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees protection of the rights of all citizens, but says nothing about non-citizens.

I see you won't comment on this.

Plus you say the bill of rights are for everyone citizen and non citizen. Well your wrong as if a person was in the military you can't invoke your 5th admendment rights. As soon as you enlist the bill of rights no longer pertain to you .
You fall under the ucmj.

 

[dannymur]

breaking the law is different than saying illegalfall under the bill of rights. I could go to egypt and break their laws and I would have to stand trial. That doesn't mean I have the same rights as their citizens. I have to answer to a crime I did.

The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees protection of the rights of all citizens, but says nothing about non-citizens.

I see you won't comment on this.

Plus you say the bill of rights are for everyone citizen and non citizen. Well your wrong as if a person was in the military you can't invoke your 5th admendment rights. As soon as you enlist the bill of rights no longer pertain to you .
You fall under the ucmj.

Sir, as you have pointed out above

I could go to egypt and break their laws and I would have to stand trial.


I have to answer to a crime I did

You are correct, and thank you for recognizing this basic tenet of Law.

So, can you please tell me, what provision in law, International or US allowed your Countrymen to enter another friendly country, Pakistan, and murder a person?

Should these people be amenable to the Law? Any Law?

Or is Law and Due Process dispensable if you follow the Doctrine that Might is Right?

What makes the actions of the people who perpetrated the execution, without due process or trial, any different to the actions of Terrorist Suicide Bombers, or Car Bombers or Assassins?

Do you not agree that this action brings the US into disrepute and is not in keeping with the Constitution of the US or the Geneva Convention, or indeed International Law?

 

[A.Nonymous]

breaking the law is different than saying illegalfall under the bill of rights. I could go to egypt and break their laws and I would have to stand trial. That doesn't mean I have the same rights as their citizens. I have to answer to a crime I did.

The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees protection of the rights of all citizens, but says nothing about non-citizens.

I see you won't comment on this.

Plus you say the bill of rights are for everyone citizen and non citizen. Well your wrong as if a person was in the military you can't invoke your 5th admendment rights. As soon as you enlist the bill of rights no longer pertain to you .
You fall under the ucmj.

If you break the law in Egypt, you're going to be tried under Egyptian laws. Whatever rights they extend to you are their deal, not ours. The US government has no say on what rights Egypt gives you. No idea why you even bring it into the discussion.

You could not be more wrong about the Fourteenth Ammendment either. The very first clause of said ammendment states,

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

(Emphasis mine)

It is ILLEGAL under the US Constitution to not grand someone the same protection they give everyone else. Everyone in US jurisdiction has identical legal rights. Legal, illegals, non-citizens, citizens, foreign tourists, etc.... all have identical legal rights.

Also, you're wrong about the military thing. If a soldier holds up a liquor store, he is entitle to the same protections under the Bill of Rights that a civilian would be entitled to if the civilian held up the same liquor store.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Sir, as you have pointed out above

I could go to egypt and break their laws and I would have to stand trial.


I have to answer to a crime I did

You are correct, and thank you for recognizing this basic tenet of Law.

So, can you please tell me, what provision in law, International or US allowed your Countrymen to enter another friendly country, Pakistan, and murder a person?

Should these people be amenable to the Law? Any Law?

Or is Law and Due Process dispensable if you follow the Doctrine that Might is Right?

What makes the actions of the people who perpetrated the execution, without due process or trial, any different to the actions of Terrorist Suicide Bombers, or Car Bombers or Assassins?

Do you not agree that this action brings the US into disrepute and is not in keeping with the Constitution of the US or the Geneva Convention, or indeed International Law?

What the US did is similar, in my mind, to a guy who murders someone who raped and killed their wife. Is it legal? No. Is anyone going to prosecute that guy? No. The victim was slime who deserved to die. The guy was morally justified in what he did and is not likely to be a threat to anyone else as long as they don't rape and kill the guys wife. So the guy is given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

 

[batgeek]

why some people continue to argue, even though they have been proven WRONG, still amazes me to this day.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Sir, as you have pointed out above

I could go to egypt and break their laws and I would have to stand trial.


I have to answer to a crime I did

You are correct, and thank you for recognizing this basic tenet of Law.

So, can you please tell me, what provision in law, International or US allowed your Countrymen to enter another friendly country, Pakistan, and murder a person?

Should these people be amenable to the Law? Any Law?

Or is Law and Due Process dispensable if you follow the Doctrine that Might is Right?

What makes the actions of the people who perpetrated the execution, without due process or trial, any different to the actions of Terrorist Suicide Bombers, or Car Bombers or Assassins?

Do you not agree that this action brings the US into disrepute and is not in keeping with the Constitution of the US or the Geneva Convention, or indeed International Law?

Ok let's see. How do you know we didn't have permission to carry out this operation from Pakistan's government? Sure they can say we didnt in the news but they can do this as not to have Osama people to retaliate against their country.

I think how the US GOV handled this was a political agenda on obamas side to get his numbers up as he is coming up on re election. Black ops missions like this one is just that black ops. no one is suppose to ever hear of them. Obama did this for personal gain.

Now with this said what would happen if we would of capture him and bring him to. trial? Then his terrorist group would start kidnapping and killing innocent people for the release of osama. So don't you think enough people died because of him? Sometimes its the better option to kill a person like him than to keep him alive no matter how wrong it is.

Sure I will agree the US gov broke many laws but we have learned in the past the US gov is above the law and what country will bring charges against our gov? You think UN or NATO is going to do anything against us? We give so much aid and military support until its like don't bite the hand that feeds ya.

Plus how would it look for anyoje to take the side of osama being murdered is like saying you side with a terrorist. It was like in the 70's when the KKK shot and killed those communist labor party or what ever they was called. When it went to trial all member of that KKK group was found innocent as what American would side with communists.

I think osama was murdered and how our gov did it was totally in the wrong and broke many domestic and international law. But with what osama was no one (government or organization) will say it or bring charges for it.

So yes I agree with you on this.

 

[batgeek]

do you even know what a black op is? you will never hear about a black op unless you have the correct clearance and the need to know. this was a regular op with all intent of publicizing it.

 

[Dark Jedi]

do you even know what a black op is? you will never hear about a black op unless you have the correct clearance and the need to know. this was a regular op with all intent of publicizing it.

I guess you don't know what the seals are for do you. Lol. Seals and delta's do many missions you never heard of.

I said this mission should of been a black ops mission. He should of been found dead and no one knew who did it.

 

[batgeek]

<--- TS SCI. i work intel in DoD, i have need to know.

this should have never been a black op. and it wasn't. it wasn't a power play by Obama because he is up for re-election. and that is all i can say about this.

 

[EarlyMon]

I seem to recall we'd have gotten him sooner, as in very nearly after, had not that moron run his story that we were tracking him via his satellite phone.

BTW - thanks to the movies and tv, calling it black ops gives people the feeling that they're part of it all. How that works, I'll never know, but that's a fact.

Former DoD SCI + several other stamps, including specific black projects, limited. photoint, humint, mostly sigint, no black ops but widdy with sin.

Our top story tonight: Osama bin Laden is still dead! (for you older SNL fans)

 

[batgeek]

pho/hum/sig-int but with sinwiddy? interesting, i can see the relevance for pho and sig, but where does humint come into play nuclear-wise?

I seem to recall we'd have gotten him sooner, as in very nearly after, had not that moron run his story that we were tracking him via his satellite phone.

incorrect.

 

[EarlyMon]

pho/hum/sig-int but with sinwiddy? interesting, i can see the relevance for pho and sig, but where does humint come into play nuclear-wise?

Started with nukes, branched to systems, was loaned out for a while, made good for a while. Finally, went back to weapons research - and found a threat per training - had the pleasure of being used to catch him dead to rights. Loaned out again, analyst, as reward. Was ok, but went back to roots, and ended working space, including final DSP and other assets, sensor specialist (validation, etc). Finished career there as special DOE/DoD liason, J6 and other.

You might know me. From a disco dance.

incorrect.

Appreciate it - hate carrying misinfo anywhere.

 

[batgeek]

wow, you floated around quite a bit!

i have a buddy that went to Aerojet after getting out of the service.

i've worked comms my entire career, as a tech/oper/eng, both Navy and civilian. generic satcomm, SOCOM tac-comm, DRSN, MILSTAR, and currently GBS.

 

[EarlyMon]

If you went near EMPRESS at Pax, you used my stuff. Might've heard me at Monterey, some of my stuff was used for discrimination in areas you've worked. MILSTAR ground, AF&USSPACECOM&STRATCOM - few others.

Never have liked being bored. Really only worked one mission - beat the Soviets.

 

[batgeek]

very cool! i much more enjoy working for DoD as a contrator now vice AD.

never got out to Monterey or Rax. spent my fair share of time at Offett and Co Springs though, I was the first Navy personnel to be involved in the MILSTAR program and was deeply involved in the AN/USC-38 stand-up. then i went to NAVSPECWARCOM and they kinda kept me locked away at Dam Neck.

ahhhh reminiscing now.... *sigh*

 

[A.Nonymous]

<--- TS SCI. i work intel in DoD, i have need to know.

this should have never been a black op. and it wasn't. it wasn't a power play by Obama because he is up for re-election. and that is all i can say about this.

Completely disagree. If this had been an election ploy by Obama it would not have been done a full year and a half before the election. Tons of stuff can happen in a year and a half.

 

[EarlyMon]

^Um... is there a typo there because it sounds like you completely agree.

 

[batgeek]

i is confuzzuled too.