Our Founding Fathers and Religion

[PH8AL]

I am quite tired of hearing how our Founding Fathers were good Christians and founded this Nation on Christian Values.

In another thread in this forum it was stated that they were and the challenge was given that if I didn't believe this I should read a book or 2 or 25.

What 25 books should I read?

Are any of them actually written by a Founding Father?

Which one?

So here is an opportunity to settle this. Prove it. Show me the evidence.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Define "Christian Values" first. If that's your measuring stick it needs to be defined. Also define what a "good Christian" is. I know people who are only in church at Easter but consider themselves good Christians. I know others who are in church every time the doors are open and also consider themselves good Christians.

 

[PH8AL]

Define "Christian Values" first. If that's your measuring stick it needs to be defined. Also define what a "good Christian" is. I know people who are only in church at Easter but consider themselves good Christians. I know others who are in church every time the doors are open and also considered themselves good Christians.

Well I'm not a Christian so will not define for them what makes a good one or a bad one.
What I could do is build a list of quotes from Christians using these exact phrases in their political speech.
It would be terribly long and is what Google is for.

Your comment is meant to sideline this thread with splitting hair debates when what I said and what they claim is common public discord and is plain in meaning.

 

[Apoplectic1]

Even if a founding father were not a good Christian, do you think that they would admit to it in their own autobiography?

Look at Ben Franklin. He always wrote about "early to bed early to rise" and all that, but according to experts he would party all night and was knee deep in muff fuzz at all times.

 

[PH8AL]

Even if a founding father were not a good Christian, do you think that they would admit to it in their own autobiography?

Look at Ben Franklin. He always wrote about "early to bed early to rise" and all that, but according to experts he would party all night and was knee deep in muff fuzz at all times.

Not ignoring your comment but I am also not going to comment on it yet.
I am strait demanding proof and will not state my counter argument before they have joined the debate.

Ben knee deep in muff fuzz! Lol the visual I got from that made me laugh so hard my belly hurts.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I don't argue at all that they claim it. I've heard people claim that many, many times. I was just putting forth what is necessary to support that claim. You've got to define what a "good Christian" and what "Christian values" are. Then you can determine which, if any, of the Founding Fathers conform to those definitions.

 

[PH8AL]

I don't argue at all that they claim it. I've heard people claim that many, many times. I was just putting forth what is necessary to support that claim. You've got to define what a "good Christian" and what "Christian values" are. Then you can determine which, if any, of the Founding Fathers conform to those definitions.

Ok let's take this into the debate for the limited purpose of definition. I personally can only say my opinion which adds little to actually coming to an agreeable definition.

I admit a bias here. Definitions should come from an unbiased source whenever possible.

Feel free to take this on or wait for a few Christians to come to a consensus on what they mean.

That is as long as it does not sidetrack the original topic.
I get the same answer every time I challenge this myth. "Go read your history" Well I've done that, now I am doing what is common in a real debate. Demanding evidence that what Christians are claiming is Historical Fact is, or that they stop saying it here on these forums and in the real world.

 

[A.Nonymous]

The problem is that a lot of values the country was founded on are indeed Christian values. They are also values present in Islam, Judaism and any number of other religions. Freedom for everyone? Equality for everyone? These are universal values found in any number of religions and in Christianity. So one could certainly make the argument that the country was founded on Christian values. One could also claim it was founded on Islamic values as well.

 

[Strings]

But definitions ARE still needed, as they frame the debate.

Not Christian myself, but I'll take a stab at defining things: a Christian would be (in my mind) someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God, who died via crucifiction to redeem humanity.

Now, the question becomes "what evidence is there that the Founders had such a belief?"

 

[PH8AL]

But definitions ARE still needed, as they frame the debate.

Not Christian myself, but I'll take a stab at defining things: a Christian would be (in my mind) someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God, who died via crucifiction to redeem humanity.

Now, the question becomes "what evidence is there that the Founders had such a belief?"

ANON that is a good point. And are values I hold dear with out a religion.

Strings
Acceptable definition in my opinion.

So I will strike the values question from the topic. Show evidence that they were even indeed Christian.

 

[A.Nonymous]

The question of what makes a Christian is one that has been debated by theologians since the birth of Christianity. If you read the New Testament, the early Christian Fathers wrote about the issue of what a Christian truly is extensively. I'm not sure that just professing a belief in Christ makes one a "Christian."

 

[OutofDate1980]

The problem is that a lot of values the country was founded on are indeed Christian values. ...

Well values is not exclusive to any creed. The U.S. is not founded on any religion.

Treaty of Tripoli of 1797, ratified unanimously by the U.S. Senate, signed into law by John Adams.

" As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, ..."[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Strings]

Anon: we don't need to use a "scholarly definition", so long as we all agree on the definition for the sake of discussion.

And I would argue that claiming someone could be a Christian without believing in Christ is preposterous. Follow "Christian values", yes. But belief in Christ as son of God and saviour of mankind" is kinda the whole point of that particular faith

 

[PH8AL]

According to John 3:16 it is the deciding factor of who gets into heaven or hell.

And this is exactly what I meant by splitting hairs debates. Which is often the tactic of some one trying to distract attention away from a weak argument.

 

[Strings]

"And god so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life"

Yep... suggests that a belief in Christ is a requirement...

 

[A.Nonymous]

Well values is not exclusive to any creed. The U.S. is not founded on any religion.

Treaty of Tripoli of 1797, ratified unanimously by the U.S. Senate, signed into law by John Adams.

" As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, ..."[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Um, isn't that what I said?

Anyway, if we look at the two statements from the OP we've got this:

The Founding Fathers were Christians.
The US was founded on Christian values.

Depending on how you define Christian, I think both statements can be considered true, but so what? I'm considering the Founding Fathers as those who signed the Declaration of Independence and/or the Constitution. All of those men belonged to a Christian church of some kind. Some left writings that made it clear they were devout Christians (like Patrick Henry). Some were Deists (like Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin) and many fell in the middle somewhere. It is certainly accurate to say that all of them were religious in some way or another. As stated earlier, all were affiliated with various churches. Depending on how you define Christian, all might be considered to be Christians. Jefferson accepted the teachings of Christ, but rejected his deity. Was Jefferson then a Christian? I've no idea and won't even being to guess. In any case I think the statement that the Founding Fathers were Christians is a generally true statement albeit with some minor qualifications.

The statement that the US was founded on Christian values is also a true statement I think. But an equally true statement would be that the US was founded on Islamic values. Or that it was founded on Judaic values. The values are so universal as to apply to many religions.

TLDR version I think both of those statements can be considered true.

 

[PH8AL]

Mathew 25 and several text from John's Letter to the Roman's establish that if if you don't choose Jesus not only will you not get into heaven but you will be punished in hell. Your punishment will be fitting of your crimes in life but the ticket there is to not believe. To paraphrase.
The obvious opposite of this is that you can commit any crime against humanity and as long as you ask forgiveness and take Jesus as your Savior you're still going to heaven.

So yeah I would feel safe that we can define a Christian by the bibles definition.

I'll tell you my opinion of why I was dismissed out of hand in an other thread and why no one has taken this up. Because its a lie that can be proven a lie by any one who has studied the public and personal writings of The main characters who hatched our Revolution. They were all prolific writers.

Jefferson was a fan of the philosophy of Jesus. He took a King James New Testament and stripped it of all reference to Jesus as the son of god or his crucifixion, any and all mysticism and magik and dogma of the early catholic church.

He published it as The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.
His intent was if you couldn't find your own moral compass you would do ok to let this lead you.
Many make the claim that this was not a discourse on Christianity but written to teach Native Americans with.

This is a Logic Fail.

From the point of view of a christian who is concerned about the souls of the Natives who are going to hell because they never knew about Jesus. How mean spirited would it be to send them a Bible to teach them about Jesus that doesn't include a way to save your soul.

I find value in many verses from the Bible. The story of Joseph is a favorite morality tale.

That does not make me jewish or christian. It means I found value in a book.

If you want me to I'll start pulling out quotes from Adams, Franklin etc
Ive had to write papers on this so I know what to ask Google for.

The evidence to prove the Historical Fact that the majority of the Founding Fathers were not Christian is in their own writing. Photo copies of original documents available for you to puruse online in the Library of Congress archives.

[SIZE=+1]"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object."[/SIZE]

Thomas Jefferson from a letter to a Mr Short 1819.

Here is what Mr Jefferson had to say to the Dansbury Baptist Church Association

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

Franklin

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason
Poor Richard's Almanack 1758

Well he went on like this for decades.

Madison was probably the staunchest of the supporters of Separation of church and state so wrote extensively about it. This is my favorite for clearly defining his opinion.

Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of the most importance.

While this does not prove he is not a christian it does give a sense of strong leanings that way. By Christian standards your church life and your civil life are one in the same. You are to live the word of Christ and carry his message to the world.
Pat reminds us of that every episode of the 700 Club, yes I sometimes watch the 700 Club.

John Adams was a christian in his early life. Worst form he was a puritan.
He later gave us this gem.

I do declare that I can write Greek better than you do, though I cannot say, so well as you can if you will. I can make nothing but pothooks and trammels of the frontispiece of your amiable letter of the 15th. If you had quoted your authority, I might have found it.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men. Dupuis has made no alteration in my opinions of the Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, which I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and of the heart.

It would be idle for me to write observations upon Dupuis. I must fill thirteen volumes. If I was twenty-five years old, and had the necessary books and leisure, I would write an answer to Dupuis; but when, or where, or how should I get it printed? Dupuis can be answered, to the honor and advantage of the Christian religion as I understand it. To this end I must study astrology as well as astronomy, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Arabic, Persian, and Sanscrit.

But to leave Dupuis to be answered or reviewed in Edinburgh or London, I must inquire into the attributes given by the ancient nations to their divinities; gods with stars and new moons in their foreheads or on their shoulders; gods with heads of dogs, horns of oxen, bulls, cows, calves, rams, sheep, or lambs; gods with the bodies of horses; gods with the tails of fishes; gods with the tails of dragons and serpents; gods with the feet of goats. The bull of Mithra; the dog of Anubis; the serpent of Esculapius!!!!

Is man the most irrational beast of the forest? Never did bullock, or sheep, or snake imagine himself a god. What, then, can all this wild theory mean? Can it be any thing but allegory founded in astrology? Your Manilius would inform you as well as Dupuis.

The Hebrew unity of Jehovah, the prohibition of all similitudes, appears to me the greatest wonder of antiquity. How could that nation preserve its creed among the monstrous theologies of all the other nations of the earth? Revelation, you will say, and especial Providence; and I will not contradict you, for I cannot say with Dupuis that a revelation is impossible or improbable.

Christianity, you will say, was a fresh revelation. I will not deny this. As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed? How has it happened that all the fine arts, architecture, painting, sculpture, statuary, music, poetry, and oratory, have been prostituted, from the creation of the world, to the sordid and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?

The eighteenth century had the honor to discover that Ocellus of Lucania, Tim

 

[PH8AL]

A.Nonymous

once again you are giving a circle jerk session with definitions.

If these values are a Universal Creed than you can not proscribe them to any group ie they are not christian values they are the common values of man.

Our Country was founded on exactly that the values of morality of common man.

As our laws were found on common law that dates far back further in Northern Europe than christianity so can not be considered christian values.

As for defining the Founding Fathers I am not referring to every guy in the Continental Congress, just as today most of Congress were politicians trying to get the best deals and pork for there constituents. Many who trumped up their Piety just like the puppets running for office today. It plays well some places.

I am referring to the handful of them who underpin the entire Ideology that our Country was founded on.

Then you make more claims about the social habits and beliefs of the Founding Fathers with out giving anything as evidence that what you are saying is accurate.

On topic or hit the road.

 

[A.Nonymous]

For the record, by your definition, I am not a Christian. I would certainly consider myself one. I attend church several times weekly and am actively involved in various church activities.

However, I don't believe that one's church life and civil life are the same. I do not believe that the power of the government should be used to enforce any sort of moral code. I have supported gay marriage the ballot box even though I would never admit such a thing at any church function. I read many non-Christian thinkers and find inspiration in their ideas and philosophies. So, by your definition, I am not a Christian.

I find your definition of the Founding Fathers as somewhat flawed as well. I think you're picking those who fit in your definition of Christian and excluding those who don't because they didn't "underpin the Ideology our country was founded on." I'm not quite sure what that means.

John Adams once said:

Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

And ten years before his death he wrote:

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men. . . . The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

Franklin clearly believed in God although he doubted the divinity of Christ:

I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe; that he governs it by his Providence; that be ought to be worshipped; that the. most acceptable service we can render to him is doing good to his other children; that the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do, in whatever sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as be left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is like to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it.

Does this make him not a Christian? I don't know.

Alexander Hamilton would seem to meet your definition. But I'm not entirely clear on what that definition is. Hamilton wrote:

In my opinion, the present constitution is the standard to which we are to cling. Under its banner bona fide must we combat our political foes, rejecting all changes but through the channel itself provided for amendments. By these general views of the subject have my reflections been guided. I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated "The Christian Constitutional Society," its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. second: The support of the United States.

And his last words on being shot by Burr were reportedly:

I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.

Those would be the words of someone I would think of as a Christian though it might not fit your definition.

Patrick Henry was an avowed Christian. In his will he wrote:

This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed.

John Jay wrote:

I have long been of opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds

And he also wrote:

While in France . . . I do not recollect to have had more than two conversations with atheists about their tenents. The first was this: I was at a large party, of which were several of that description. They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. I took no part in the conversation. In the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ? I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did.

Again, we can accurately state that all of them were religious IME. Were they Christian? That really depends on how you define Christian. As I said earlier and you went into depth, both Franklin and Jefferson were Deists. They doubted the deity of Christ. Can one doubt the deity of Christ and still be a Christian? I don't know. That's a question for the theologians and apologists. Certainly some of the Founding Fathers were very devout Christians and all of them belonged to some church or another.

None of this should surprise anyone. Look at the make up of Congress today. The vast majority self-identify as Christian. There is only one who identifies himself as atheist. Only six declined to identify a faith and and ~40 of the 535 members of Congress belonged to a non-Christian religion. No doubt some of them are devout Christians and some are Christian in name only and never darken a church stoop. No doubt their religious views differ across the board. That's not abnormal for any religion. But the fact that all the Founding Fathers self-identified as members of a Christian denomination shouldn't surprise anyone. I'm not sure why this is a big deal at all.

 

[PH8AL]

No you are not a Christian, by christian dogma you are a sinner damned to hell if you don't repent.

Believing a God does not make you a christian. I didn't say they were not spiritual.

Your Adams quote is taken out of context which is why I posted the entire letter it was taken from. He then calls it the bloodiest religion to ever exist and the letter as I covered above was part of an on going discussion about the Works of Dupuis. Dupuis believed in a Universlity of Religion Theology.
Universality of Religions

Universalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Universality of Religion,Anthropology, Cultural Anthropology, Definition of Anthropology, Anthropology Definition, Physical Anthropology, Sociology Guide


An article on Deism and or Founding Fathers
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/deism.htm

More on Deism because this is the root of freedom of religion and the separation of church and state.
These pricipals were not meant to protect christianity from the state but to insure that a religion could not vote out democracy in favor of their doctrine. This is also the period of history referred to as the Age of Enlightenment and the Revolution of science.
Diesm and the Enlighenment movement started as a backlash against the continual bloodshed between the protestant and catholic empires in Europe, the christian reformationwhich caused it and the persecution and execution of heratics.

Christians cling to every mention of God by the Founders as proof they were christian. #1 on the list is the reference to God in the Declaration. It is not a referrence to the christian god. It is a referrence by a Deist to the creator not god the father.

No where in any of our Founding documents can you find Bible verse, reference to Jesus or god the father.
Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PH8AL]

Why this is important is freaking obvious unless you live in a bubble. You can't separate the Christian Fundementalist doctrine from Conservative Political Speech.

This ultra partisian gridlock is a direct result of that union and the rise of the Fundementalist movement.

This misinformation and propoganda is meant to foster the wide spread belief that if you are not a Christian you can not be a Patriot.

Their core goals undermine Democracy.

They are trying to intentionally strip away the separation of church and state so they can use the public school system to further their religion. They already teach creationism as Scientific Fact and want to make this mandatory for every child in this Country.

They rail against the New Word Order while they are the tools of the Elitists in both parties who are the NWO.

Its a sad state when faith can so blind one to reason. Poor Richard warned us against it 250 years ago.

We have already had acts of true terrorism committed by Fanatic Christians here. The point of killing abortion doctors was to cause fear that if you are involved in abortion you might be killed at any time.

It is important to me personally because I see the use and enablement of christian fundementalism be Corporate Elitists in their campaign to strip our rights for profit and protection as the #1 threat to Democracy we face.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Well, then it speaks to your definition of Christian. If I were asked by a pollster if I considered myself a Christian I would self-identify as a Christian. If you asked people I know if they considered me to be a Christian, they might say, "Well, he goes to church several times a week. He's active in the church. I would consider him a Christian." Yet your definition of Christian is basically someone who votes according to their religion. This seems a bit ridiculous to me and something of a straw man. There are hundreds of millions of people in this country who would self-identify as Christian, but would not fit your narrow definition of what a Christian is.

There is no doubt that many of the Founding Fathers were Christians. Again, this shouldn't surprise anyone since Christianity was, at the time, and still is today, the prevalent religion in America. Depending on what poll you look at 75-80% of Americans self-identify as Christians. Congress is made up almost entirely of people who identify as Christians.

Is it a surprise that the Founding Fathers would all identify themselves as members of various Christian denominations? No doubt some were extremely devout, some only showed up on Easter and Christmas and some called themselves Christians and never darkened the door step of a church. This shouldn't shock anyone and I'm not sure why anyone would object to this. If you want to object to the fact that the religious right wants to use this to forward their political agenda, then fine. That's another topic altogether.

Again, your original post posed two statements and wished to discuss the veracity of both of them.

1. The Founding Fathers were Christians.
2. The country was founded on Christian values.

Again, I think both statements are kind of true. All the Founding Fathers self-identified as being Christians although some were no doubt more devout than others and some no doubt had their politics influenced by their faith more than others. So, yes, one can make the argument that all of them were Christians. Certainly none of them were atheists and none of them self-identified as Muslim, Buddhis, Hindu or members of any other religion. They all belonged to one Christian denomination or another.

Was the country founded on Christian values? Again, yes. Values like freedom, equality, justice, etc..... are all Christian values. But they're also values found in other religions as well. So you could equally claim the country was founded on Muslim values or Judaic values. I'm not horribly familiar with eastern religions, but I'd be shocked if Buddhism or Hinduism didn't espouse similar values.

Your argument that these are not Christian values because they are universal values is flawed. The company I work for has values like integrity and honesty. They're on posters all over the place and are part of the company culture. They've even printed them on our name badges. They are considered Acme Brick Company Values. By your argument they couldn't be considered Acme Brick Company Values since they're universal values. That's complete crap. Just because something is a universal value doesn't mean it can't be associated with an organization or a religion or anything else. So yes, the Founding Fathers were self-identified Christians and yes, the country was founded on values that would be considered Christian.

 

[OutofDate1980]

... Was the country founded on Christian values? Again, yes. Values like freedom, equality, justice, etc..... are all Christian values. ...

Revisionist history. Christian religions opposed freedom, equality and justice as we use those terms today. I grant you opposition is less strenuous now, but not eliminated.

There are numerous references in the tenets promoting or tolerating slavery, inequality and genocide.

The goal of the Founding Fathers views on government and religion was separation of Church and State, based on the then recent history of the religious wars in Europe.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Revisionist history. Christian religions opposed freedom, equality and justice as we use those terms today. I grant you opposition is less strenuous now, but not eliminated.

Not true, but whatever.

 

[PH8AL]

So you identify culturally as a christian. I could claim myself to be handsome, my opinion who can tell me I'm wrong does that indeed make me handsome, no sorry.

You go to a church, if you are not saved and are a member of that church you are a liar because to be an actual member of of the church, with a right to speak about church business you must be baptized. The symbolic act of washing away your sins and being reborn in Christ. Unless you are Catholic then the bar is set much higher and the lie is that much bigger.

Christianity is a religion based on the acceptance of Christ as savior. You either believe or you don't and that is the exact definition of a Christian. If you do not accept christ as as your savior you are a hell bound sinner and that's it.

What you are doing is trying to skew the definition of Christian so you can use the term to encompass any one who is secular that culturally identifies as christian because that is there family heritage. It falsely inflates christians to a majority and is the only claim you have to calling the Founding Fathers a group of christians.

Only 19% of people who claim to be christian attend church 1 or more times a week and only about 35% claim Jesus as their savior. So less than 30% of Americans profess Jesus as their Savior.

Next time you are off to church ask a true Believer if you are a christian even though you don't accept christ as your Savior. They will gather more true believers to pray for the holy spirit to enter your heart so if you were to die that day you would not suffer an eternity in hell.

Now there are all kinds of these strange off shoots that still claim to be christians that monkey around with they ways of salvation. They are considered hieratic cults by Christians. Because you have to accept christ as your savior.

You are not a Christian nor where any of the self professed and closet Deists that founded our Nation.

Defined the end.

Now for the value issues. The flaw in your argument is that the founding fathers were clear on the point of freedom of religion for all religion.

You yourself profess these to be universal. To claim that our government is founded on christian values is exclusive of every other religion or lack of.

When Christians rally and protest claiming they need to take back this country and go back to christian values it is exclussive of every one else the Founders protected with the 1st amendment and the separation of church and State.

So we have the moral values common to man. They are pretty simple and mostly common sense and decency. Christian Political speech is ripe with much more being encompassed by the term christian values than the Universal Values you have already argued our country was founded on. When you stray the slightest bit away from the simpliest common values you get divergence in the values of different groups and they are no longer universal. Claiming one groups values over an others as the basis of our system is once again a democracy fail.

Christianity is in fact intolerant by its base nature. If you don't accept it as truth you get a label and a punishment.
To take this country and run it on what Christians today encompass as christian values you must destroy and corrupt the cornerstones of this Union.
This is not a philosophical or theological debate. This is an organised political movement bent on destroying the Bill of Rights to gain control of this Country so they can use its Institutions to force their faith on every one.

Jesus is kind and loving and teaches peace but if you don't believe he died and rose again to take the burden of your sin well he will send you to an eternity of punishment by fire and demons. His dad who is also him and this other guy all at the same time has been known to order the genocide of those who refuse Jesus's love so they can get to their punishment that much sooner. He has also promised to send Jesus back here again to take all who believe in him to heaven to wait while he tortures and murders every one else who is left so the good boys and girls can come back and not have to deal with those nasty sinners any more.
Sorry sounds an awful lot like... hell... exactly like what the muslims say their god is going to do to us Infidels because we don't believe in him.

Not to mention where is the peace and love. Can't find any of that peace and love in the hate mongering political propaganda.

Laying this off on a minority of christians and saying that ain't you. These are people of your faith doing this in the name of you and your god. They don't call themselves a minority of christians when the are standing on a street corner with a bull horn screaming god hates ***s. They claim to represent you. Im not talking just about the idiot protesting at soldiers funerals even though they are whack jobs they do claim Jesus as their saviors.

The homosexual issue is a perfect example of where christians are right because their gods said so and are going to persecute and demonize an entire group of people for living in a way that their god says is wrong when the laws of this country say are fine. That's Tyranny not democracy. Actively partitioning the government to enforce church doctrine and christian values on a group of non christians who are breaking no law is exactly what our Founding Fathers meant to protect us from.

Do we need to go into the Democracy fail that is the science of creationism and the ever present campaign to force this belief on every one else because its the word of god.