Our Founding Fathers and Religion

[A.Nonymous]

The only evidence I see for these "facts" are similar propaganda websites. These are just similar echo chambers supported by religious extremists.

I've found a few mainstream articles that covered the story after further digging. I've also found some that report the verdict was overturned on appeal. Nevertheless, the fact that such a verdict could be reached in the first place is concerning to me.

The "hate speech" bill is pretty well documented. It has it's own Wikipedia page. It's got a religious exemption to it (albeit a vague one), but the whole idea of punishing speech for being "hateful" doesn't sit right with me at all.

 

[PH8AL]

I've found a few mainstream articles that covered the story after further digging. I've also found some that report the verdict was overturned on appeal. Nevertheless, the fact that such a verdict could be reached in the first place is concerning to me.

The "hate speech" bill is pretty well documented. It has it's own Wikipedia page. It's got a religious exemption to it (albeit a vague one), but the whole idea of punishing speech for being "hateful" doesn't sit right with me at all.

I get where you are commining from with that and agree completely.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Apparently it is already happening in Canada.

Bible verses regarded as hate literature

‘Bible as hate speech’signed into law

Religious speech is not tolerated if it is considered "hateful". So much for freedom. I could see this extending to the US in the distant future. Look at the Phelps and their clan of haters. How many Americans would vote in favor of a law that would toss all of them in jail? I would bet that law would pass overwhelmingly despite the First Amendment implications. Now imagine a few generations down the road and the number of people who aren't just atheists but flat out hate all religion for whatever reason rises. What kind of laws might we see then?

Joseph Farah the owner of WND is a wrack job. Stirring up outrage for a case that was settled in 2006.

Joseph Farah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Farah is among those who have promulgated conspiracy theories questioning Barack Obama's status as a natural born citizen of the United States and resultant eligibility to serve as U.S. President,[11][12] stating, "It'll plague Obama throughout his presidency. It'll be a nagging issue and a sore on his administration, much like Monica Lewinsky was on Bill Clinton's presidency" and "It's not going to go away, and it will drive a wedge in an already divided public."[13] Despite the release of Obama's notarized birth certificate abstract,[14] Farah demanded that Obama release his "long-form" birth certificate, which was subsequently posted on the White House's web site on April 27, 2011.[4][15][16] Farah had previously pledged $15,000 to the hospital where Obama was born upon the release of said document.[17][18] When Obama finally released the long-form birth certificate, he called it "fraudulent."[19]"

Anti-gay ad didn't violate law, court rules - Saskatchewan - CBC News
"On Thursday, the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal reversed the decision. The decision written by Justice Bob Richards said the ad was "bluntly presented and doubtlessly upsetting to many," but it didn't violate the code."

 

[ElasticNinja]

These US religious nuts are now putting up anti-abortion campaigns and trying to start some sort of crusade in my state too. This is what happens when dumb people get access to lots of money and computers.

 

[PH8AL]

Destroying Christianity is not my goal or reason for this post.
Protecting freedom of religion is. My opinion is that a diest acknowledgement of a higher power is fine. In God we trust is ok, one Nation under God is fine. No where does it define who's God.

Ever more today we need to shore up the speration of church and State. It protects Christianity as well as my secular beliefs.

If you believe in a creationist literal translation of the Bible it is not right for you to push for this to be taught in Government funded Public Schools. If it means that much to you, the option does exist for you to send your Child to a Christian School and if it is a financial burden the government does help with it.
Do you folks on that side not understand that what you are doing is opening the doorfor the growing Islami minority to follow you. Because of immigration and birth rates most of Europe and Canada are going to be predominently Muslim in our life times and will be the largest minority political group in this country in a few decades.

My oposition here isn't liberal, I am progun, don't care either way abut gays Ddisgusting but not my business) and I have a moral objection to abortion based in science. It is a fact that at the moment f conception a new sentient being was created. My opinion women have a choice about their bodies its called birth control andabstinence. Don't want a baby be responseble and don't get preagnent.

My issue is protecting the secular position of our Government to ensure fair freedom for any religion or choice to be free of religion. That was the intent of our founding fathers.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Destroying Christianity is not my goal or reason for this post.
Protecting freedom of religion is. My opinion is that a diest acknowledgement of a higher power is fine. In God we trust is ok, one Nation under God is fine. No where does it define who's God.

Its not ok, although its not a big deal.

If you believe in a creationist literal translation of the Bible it is not right for you to push for this to be taught in Government funded Public Schools. If it means that much to you, the option does exist for you to send your Child to a Christian School and if it is a financial burden the government does help with it.

The government should not help with creationism being taught. Theres arguments for making it illegal.

Do you folks on that side not understand that what you are doing is opening the doorfor the growing Islami minority to follow you. Because of immigration and birth rates most of Europe and Canada are going to be predominently Muslim in our life times and will be the largest minority political group in this country in a few decades.

I'm not quite sure you understand birth rates. Canada will probably not even be 15% Muslim in your life, never mind 51% practicing Muslim.
The highest percentage of Muslims in any state of Europe is like 25% in Brussels. This is one of three states in Belgium. These people are mostly of European culture and its not a huge issue. High birth rates arise from poverty, lack of birth control, lack of education, and silly beliefs. All these bar the last issue are not a problem in Europe, and we have many, many Catholics. There are actually states outside he Union with majority Muslim populations, like Bosnia, Albania, and Kosovo. These are all on track to join the Union. I dont see how they will possibly become the largest minority religion - besides, they are generally more reasonable than Evangelicals and Mormons.
I doubt you have known or know any Muslims, sigh.

My oposition here isn't liberal, I am progun, don't care either way abut gays Ddisgusting but not my business) and I have a moral objection to abortion based in science. It is a fact that at the moment f conception a new sentient being was created. My opinion women have a choice about their bodies its called birth control andabstinence. Don't want a baby be responseble and don't get preagnent.

Ha! Im betting you've watched lesbian porn and didnt puke.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Ha! Im betting you've watched lesbian porn and didnt puke.

Hey! I take great umbrage with this statement. How can you not like teh lesbian pron? It's like the greatest stuff on earth.

 

[OutofDate1980]

hey! I take great umbrage with this statement. How can you not like teh lesbian pron? It's like the greatest stuff on earth.

Greedy

 

[PH8AL]

You can't just use the National birth rate when the point is disparity amongst different groups represented in the over all rate.

Working from memory here because I'm away from my pc and hate digging for stuff like this on a 3.5" screen.

Average birth rate for Native Europeans in Western European countries is 1.5 children per couple. Adjust for the mortality rate and the Native population will decrease by 50% per generation.

That is actually a responsible thing to do that I would agree withevery where.

The problem (as I saw 1st hand) is liberal immigration and social policy. It is a good thing you are as welcoming as you are. But the bulk of Immigration into your countries is predominantly by people who practice a strict religion that is at odds with your liberal beliefs. Muslims cover the same scope as christians from moderate to lunatic fringe. And as with Christianity there is a correlation between wealth/education and how likely someone is to have extreme views.
The majority f Muslim Immigrants are poor and not well educated.

Their average number of children per couple is 8.2. Which means every generation their population is growing by nearly 400%. Not figuring in further Immigration.
They are simply out breeding Native Europeans by 8 to 1.

Its predicted they will be a majority in France in 30 years which I hope I make it that long. Canada is in the same boat.

I also saw quite a bit of pro sharia protesting while I was there. Lets not forget the intolerance that made global news over the dutch Cartoon's and Miss Hirsi's work.

Im from Detroit which has the largest population of Arabs out side of Arabia. I also lived near Frankfurt and now live in an East Coast state capital. So yes I am personally acquainted with muslims and have done business with them my whole adult life because in all of these places I worked in service industries.

I really hate the PC crap, your underlying statement is that Im prejudiced which you are way off mark with. I have no issue with people wanting to believe in religion it is when they bring it into the political sphere I have issue. I am openly opposed to radical religous beliefs no matter whose they are because no matter how you gloss it the do not equal freedom.
Label the Fanatics in Islam or Christianity a minority all you want, its irrelevant. They are far more vocally and politically active than the moderate majority the claim to speak for as well.

Does any one who is non muslim still have any illusions about Sharia Law.
Its Barbaric and in several countries where Muslims are a minority they are pursuing the right to judge themselves by Sharia law in a seperate court. If the peolpe in these Countries allow this its kind of obvious what happens after they breed non muslims into the minority.

Islam gets touted as a peacefull religion, i say any one who buys that does not know the history of Islam from Mohammed to the present day. Or have very much knowledge of the Koran.
Any one who believes the Koran to be the word of God by default believes a non muslim to be worth half as much as any muslim when it comes to any sort of compensation. Must also believe the Infidel (which is different than non muslim in their own text) is the their enemy and should not be given aid or comfort. The penalty for leaving Islam is death.

Do some Muslims not feel this way? sure I know several personally but its pretty cut and dry with the Koran and Bible if you believe it is the word of God you must accept it all as truth. I heard it said from a Baptist preacher that there are no inconsistencies in the bible only in our understanding and who are we to question God.
That is a dangerous mindset that a belief in either book as the word of god absolutely requires.

So thanks for being so Generous in Europe but here at home we need to further Seperate church and State so no minority or majority can vote out the 1st Amendment in favor of any theology including the athiest one that A.Nonymous is concerned will pass anti religous policy and law in the future.

The answer is plainly not to Christianise our Government but for people to check their Religous beliefs at the door when entering the sphere of what should be secular politics.

I hate what the KKK spews but the only way to defend my own rights is to defend even theirs.

Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists have brought to the table that their rights must be protected. I agree. Leave it at that and we are fine. Seeking protection by incorporating your beliefs into the law is not acceptable and is tyrany. By doing so you are forcing others to live by your morals and beliefs.

How do you come to an agreement with some one who is not free to make their own choice because of their faith. To them God is right and you can't bargin with God.

Exactly where I get that a strict Christian or Islamic belief is not compatible with Democracy.

 

[ElasticNinja]

You can't just use the National birth rate when the point is disparity amongst different groups represented in the over all rate.

Working from memory here because I'm away from my pc and hate digging for stuff like this on a 3.5" screen.

Average birth rate for Native Europeans in Western European countries is 1.5 children per couple. Adjust for the mortality rate and the Native population will decrease by 50% per generation.

That is actually a responsible thing to do that I would agree withevery where.

The problem (as I saw 1st hand) is liberal immigration and social policy. It is a good thing you are as welcoming as you are. But the bulk of Immigration into your countries is predominantly by people who practice a strict religion that is at odds with your liberal beliefs. Muslims cover the same scope as christians from moderate to lunatic fringe. And as with Christianity there is a correlation between wealth/education and how likely someone is to have extreme views.
The majority f Muslim Immigrants are poor and not well educated.

Their average number of children per couple is 8.2. Which means every generation their population is growing by nearly 400%. Not figuring in further Immigration.
They are simply out breeding Native Europeans by 8 to 1.

Its predicted they will be a majority in France in 30 years which I hope I make it that long. Canada is in the same boat.

I also saw quite a bit of pro sharia protesting while I was there. Lets not forget the intolerance that made global news over the dutch Cartoon's and Miss Hirsi's work.

Im from Detroit which has the largest population of Arabs out side of Arabia. I also lived near Frankfurt and now live in an East Coast state capital. So yes I am personally acquainted with muslims and have done business with them my whole adult life because in all of these places I worked in service industries.

I really hate the PC crap, your underlying statement is that Im prejudiced which you are way off mark with. I have no issue with people wanting to believe in religion it is when they bring it into the political sphere I have issue. I am openly opposed to radical religous beliefs no matter whose they are because no matter how you gloss it the do not equal freedom.
Label the Fanatics in Islam or Christianity a minority all you want, its irrelevant. They are far more vocally and politically active than the moderate majority the claim to speak for as well.

Does any one who is non muslim still have any illusions about Sharia Law.
Its Barbaric and in several countries where Muslims are a minority they are pursuing the right to judge themselves by Sharia law in a seperate court. If the peolpe in these Countries allow this its kind of obvious what happens after they breed non muslims into the minority.

Islam gets touted as a peacefull religion, i say any one who buys that does not know the history of Islam from Mohammed to the present day. Or have very much knowledge of the Koran.
Any one who believes the Koran to be the word of God by default believes a non muslim to be worth half as much as any muslim when it comes to any sort of compensation. Must also believe the Infidel (which is different than non muslim in their own text) is the their enemy and should not be given aid or comfort. The penalty for leaving Islam is death.

Do some Muslims not feel this way? sure I know several personally but its pretty cut and dry with the Koran and Bible if you believe it is the word of God you must accept it all as truth. I heard it said from a Baptist preacher that there are no inconsistencies in the bible only in our understanding and who are we to question God.
That is a dangerous mindset that a belief in either book as the word of god absolutely requires.

So thanks for being so Generous in Europe but here at home we need to further Seperate church and State so no minority or majority can vote out the 1st Amendment in favor of any theology including the athiest one that A.Nonymous is concerned will pass anti religous policy and law in the future.

The answer is plainly not to Christianise our Government but for people to check their Religous beliefs at the door when entering the sphere of what should be secular politics.

I hate what the KKK spews but the only way to defend my own rights is to defend even theirs.

Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists have brought to the table that their rights must be protected. I agree. Leave it at that and we are fine. Seeking protection by incorporating your beliefs into the law is not acceptable and is tyrany. By doing so you are forcing others to live by your morals and beliefs.

How do you come to an agreement with some one who is not free to make their own choice because of their faith. To them God is right and you can't bargin with God.

Exactly where I get that a strict Christian or Islamic belief is not compatible with Democracy.

Ha, you got all this info from some video that was doing the rounds yonks ago. Muslims in France do not have 8.1 kids per couple... this is complete and utter nonsense. France will not be Muslim in 30 years. Its simply impossible. European birth rates are actually on the increase, too. Bar some post communist European countries (which have little immigration even from other European states), there is no country in Europe that will see anything near a 50% decline in population.

Also, your ideas assume that Europe doesnt integrate Muslims, when thats not the case. They do not keep their homeland's culture in a bubble. Their kids are educated in state schools, they have access to healthcare and benefits etc. Not much Muslims tout Sharia law besides. You have the odd nut heading of to Waziristan, but then again Europe has a bigger problem with fascists and neo-Nazi's (Just a few days ago some Czech guy was arrested while planning a Brevik style attack).

 

[PH8AL]

What sort of video? I might find it interesting if you have a link. That was given as an average across multiple countries. Told you I was working from memory and I do think for myself and am capable of deciding if what I am reading is biased.

I also disagree with your statement about intergration. While many do intergrate there is a reported problem of exactly the opposite which I did seee first hand.

As long as birth rates of immigrants remain higher than natives you are heading to being a minority. Doesn't matter if its 2 to 1 or 8 to 1 its simple math.

Even those who do intergrate into your society still practice their Religion and maintain a political point of view that comes from originating in an other country with different politics. So the statement that your countries are becoming predominantly Muslim is true regardless of intergration.

 

[ElasticNinja]

What sort of video? I might find it interesting if you have a link. That was given as an average across multiple countries. Told you I was working from memory and I do think for myself and am capable of deciding if what I am reading is biased.

I also disagree with your statement about intergration. While many do intergrate there is a reported problem of exactly the opposite which I did seee first hand.

As long as birth rates of immigrants remain higher than natives you are heading to being a minority. Doesn't matter if its 2 to 1 or 8 to 1 its simple math.

Even those who do intergrate into your society still practice their Religion and maintain a political point of view that comes from originating in an other country with different politics. So the statement that your countries are becoming predominantly Muslim is true regardless of intergration.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Debunking a YouTube hit

At the end of the day, these people will eventually ditch their religion. Europe is not America. Their is no reason to believe that a Muslim minority will be disloyal to Europe or a burden. Even ethnically, Arabs are still Caucasian. You go to Andalusia and it feels like Morroco-lite with all the Maghrebi influence. Orthodox Christians Catholics are less likely to become Atheist compared to Protestants. As are Muslims. This is certainly a problem but not a massive threat to our liberal democracy.

Anyway, the main problem is not the religion, its the culture. Arabs or Turks dont do the whole honour killing and locking up women thing. Thats more for South Asians (Hindu too), and the odd bunch of Kurds.

 

[PH8AL]

Ok looked through that. I would not have taken the video seriously.

Some of the debunking is questionable. Some of the numbers were close to what I read which was presented as factual reporting and didn't have the bells and whistles of bias. Was actually dry dull reading.

At the time I lived there I did notice the difference in family size compared to here. So the declining numbers weren't hard to believe. I saw very few large families of native germans. I did also notice around the Turkish neighborhood I lived in that most families were larger.

In my experience the biggest group that were an issue were Africans.
Samolians and that generally area of origin but not sure if that was Europe wide, did seem to be a bigger problem in Germany.

The more that come in a period of time will have an affect n how well they intergrate. The higher the number in a shorter time allows them greater freedom t not intergrate and many won't just because its easier not to. So as the problem grows chances are less the will give up their religion and if you have an influx of refugee imigration its almost a certain they won't for several generations.

 

[PH8AL]

The article you linked had a few points where just by reading it alone you can see it.
The 90% of all immigrants were muslim part is perfect.

The article achnowledges that if looked at yearly some years it was that high.

So thought exersie.

5 year span
Years 1 3 and 5 it was 90% it would make logical sense that with out some intervening cause it would not be radically below that.
With out further data you could sumerize that there is a 50% chance it is higher in either year even though I assume by context it is not.

A culture that views birth control as a taboo moved to a new place with higher standards of living and an easy to get on welfare dole. Means mortality rates are going to fall and birth rates are going to rise because even in a fertile female nutrition will play a part in whether she concieves. More likely with better food. Its the perfect storm for runnawy population growth.

 

[PH8AL]

Oh yeah I absolutely hate being called caucasian. The name is self explanitory if you paid attention geography class. My white half is Nordic. Long ways from The Caucus Mnts.

 

[RazorSharp]

Interesting little tidbit I just discovered: John Quincy Adams was sworn in as President on a book of laws instead of a Bible because he wanted to maintain the separation of church and state.

 

[syi]

Interesting little tidbit I just discovered: John Quincy Adams was sworn in as President on a book of laws instead of a Bible because he wanted to maintain the separation of church and state.

I hope another president does this someday.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Ok looked through that. I would not have taken the video seriously.

Some of the debunking is questionable. Some of the numbers were close to what I read which was presented as factual reporting and didn't have the bells and whistles of bias. Was actually dry dull reading.

At the time I lived there I did notice the difference in family size compared to here. So the declining numbers weren't hard to believe. I saw very few large families of native germans. I did also notice around the Turkish neighborhood I lived in that most families were larger.

In my experience the biggest group that were an issue were Africans.
Samolians and that generally area of origin but not sure if that was Europe wide, did seem to be a bigger problem in Germany.

The more that come in a period of time will have an affect n how well they intergrate. The higher the number in a shorter time allows them greater freedom t not intergrate and many won't just because its easier not to. So as the problem grows chances are less the will give up their religion and if you have an influx of refugee imigration its almost a certain they won't for several generations.

These immigrants are willing. Turks are largely European in the first place, many Africans are Christians; these people's children integrate fine. Look at the German football team.

The article you linked had a few points where just by reading it alone you can see it.
The 90% of all immigrants were muslim part is perfect.

The article achnowledges that if looked at yearly some years it was that high.

So thought exersie.

5 year span
Years 1 3 and 5 it was 90% it would make logical sense that with out some intervening cause it would not be radically below that.
With out further data you could sumerize that there is a 50% chance it is higher in either year even though I assume by context it is not.

A culture that views birth control as a taboo moved to a new place with higher standards of living and an easy to get on welfare dole. Means mortality rates are going to fall and birth rates are going to rise because even in a fertile female nutrition will play a part in whether she concieves. More likely with better food. Its the perfect storm for runnawy population growth.

90% of immigration is not Muslim. That's not true. A lot of Muslim immigrants do not come from countries with terrible statistics, so the whole survival thing is meh. Regarding birth control, its legal in most Muslim countries, probably hard to find in other African states. This is not Civilization. These people will have 2-3 kids, not 8.

Oh yeah I absolutely hate being called caucasian. The name is self explanitory if you paid attention geography class. My white half is Nordic. Long ways from The Caucus Mnts.

Not that far from the Caucasus Mountains.

 

[PH8AL]

Well its the right of people to have their illusions. You have to reap what you sow.
But this topic is About the fundementals of American civil liberties.

HBO show The Newsroom blew my freakin mind this week by basically summing up my feelings and opinions perfectly in under 7 min.

This is very rare for me. I don't take a party line so rarely am in complete agreement with any "mainstream" point of view. I actually agree with every lastt word including his list of true Repubican beliefs. I am center right.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.