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Our Founding Fathers and Religion

PH8AL said:
So you identify culturally as a christian. I could claim myself to be handsome, my opinion who can tell me I'm wrong does that indeed make me handsome, no sorry.

You go to a church, if you are not saved and are a member of that church you are a liar because to be an actual member of of the church, with a right to speak about church business you must be baptized. The symbolic act of washing away your sins and being reborn in Christ. Unless you are Catholic then the bar is set much higher and the lie is that much bigger.
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And this is the third time you've changed the definition of Christian. First you simply had to believe in Christ. (Whatever that means.) Then you had to form your political beliefs based on your religion and not separate them at all. Now you have to be baptized and have the right to speak on behalf of the church. Furthermore, if you're Catholic, it is more complex than that. There are many Christian denominations who either don't practice baptism at all or teach that baptism is optional and have many members who haven't been baptized. So they don't fit your definition either. And you've apparently narrowed down the definition of Founding Fathers to only include guys like Franklin and Jefferson but not guys like Jay and Henry and Hamilton who were definitely Christians. If I didn't know better I'd think you weren't looking at this objectively but had arrived at a conclusion and were trying to find what would support your conclusion. I can tell you that if that's the case you will find evidence to support your conclusion every single time.

I have nothing more to add to this part of the discussion. Anything I add will simply be dismissed as you change the definition of Founding Father or Christian depending on what part of your argument is weakened. Do you not think it would be shocking and surprising if, from a nation of Christians, none of the Founding Fathers was a Christian?

Now for the value issues. The flaw in your argument is that the founding fathers were clear on the point of freedom of religion for all religion.
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Not sure how that is relevant. One can favor freedom of religion and still be Christian. At least they can in my world. Apparently not in yours. So apparently true Christians favor oppressing religious freedom. You have a strange view of Christianity IMO.

You yourself profess these to be universal. To claim that our government is founded on christian values is exclusive of every other religion or lack of.
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Not sure why you say that. Think of it in mathematical terms. Just because values ABC belong to set A doesn't mean they can't also belong to Set B. Just because Honestly, just to pick a random example, is considered a Christian value doesn't mean it's not an Islamic value as well. Just because the values the country was founded on happen to be Christian doesn't mean they're not Hindu or Buddhist as well. I have no idea why there must be exclusivity.

The rest of your post is merely observations about the role of religion in politics. Some I agree with. Some I don't. All are irrelevant to the question of whether the Founding Fathers were Christian or not (many of them claimed to be though you dismiss their claims) and whether the country was founded on Christian values or not (which would certainly be obvious to me that it was as the values the country was founded on are consistent with the values espoused by Christianity, but you dismiss this as irrelevant).
 
Please do not resort to calling other people trolls. If you can not see eye-to-eye and want to exit an argument with someone, please agree to disagree and go separate ways.

Thanks for understanding!
 
I'd say Christian values are a quite vague in the terms that we use today. Not stealing, killing, etc., well, I see that as natural law. No one wants those things to happen to anyone. Values, as a word itself, is subjective. Old testament had delightful moments like banging your dad, stoning to death witches, and kings having hundreds of concubines. None of these would apply to today (except for the crazy Mormons).

So to say that the founding of America was based on Christian values seems a bit disingenuous to say the least. Most of the founding fathers were deists to my knowledge. If they found Christ in their dying moments, well, forgive me if that sounds a bit like trying to buy your way into heaven at the last moment. A system of checks and balances runs contrary to anything Christian. A good recent example is the band ***** Riot in Russia that got arrested for making a political statement about the increasingly deep involvement the Russian Orthodox Church has in politics. The church said it was hate speech.

It's already been mentioned of the Treaty of Tripoli which Jefferson told Muslims we weren't Christian in any way. The separation existed to prevent such a theocracy that Russia seems to be sliding ever closer to. America was founded on natural law and even that might be a stretch considering women had no rights and blacks counted as 3/5 a person. So yeah maybe we were founded on Christian values, but what does that really say about those values?
 
>America was founded on natural law and even that might be a stretch considering women had no rights and blacks counted as 3/5 a person<

Actually, not as much of a stretch as you might think.

Historically, only those with any power had any rights, and really only those rights they were strong enough to take. We (humanity) slowly has moved towards recognizing that everyone has rights: that's not something that can happen overnight, but works in slow increments. So not surprising that we (the US) started out as we did, and have slowly changed (for the better)...
 
Drhyde said:
I'd say Christian values are a quite vague in the terms that we use today. Not stealing, killing, etc., well, I see that as natural law. No one wants those things to happen to anyone. Values, as a word itself, is subjective. Old testament had delightful moments like banging your dad, stoning to death witches, and kings having hundreds of concubines. None of these would apply to today (except for the crazy Mormons).

So to say that the founding of America was based on Christian values seems a bit disingenuous to say the least. Most of the founding fathers were deists to my knowledge. If they found Christ in their dying moments, well, forgive me if that sounds a bit like trying to buy your way into heaven at the last moment. A system of checks and balances runs contrary to anything Christian. A good recent example is the band ***** Riot in Russia that got arrested for making a political statement about the increasingly deep involvement the Russian Orthodox Church has in politics. The church said it was hate speech.

It's already been mentioned of the Treaty of Tripoli which Jefferson told Muslims we weren't Christian in any way. The separation existed to prevent such a theocracy that Russia seems to be sliding ever closer to. America was founded on natural law and even that might be a stretch considering women had no rights and blacks counted as 3/5 a person. So yeah maybe we were founded on Christian values, but what does that really say about those values?
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I disagree. Jefferson and Franklin were definitely deists. But guys like Hamilton, Jay and Henry were Christians, or at least they claimed to me. I don't see how a system of checks and balances is un-Christian at all. Many churches today are ruled by said systems.

I was just trying to dissect the thing critically. If we're asking whether the Founding Fathers were Christian and whether the country was founded on Christian values, then let's look at the question with a critical eye.

The null hypothesis for both would be something like:

1. The Founding Fathers were not Christian.
2. The US was not founded on Christian values.

Are either of those statements true? What evidence do we have?

Well, as to the first, the Founding Fathers self-identified as Christians in that they all belonged to various Christian denominations. Certainly none of them were atheists and none of them professed an adherence to any other faith besides Christianity. Franklin and Jefferson were both deists. Some of the Founding Fathers were extremely devout Christians. So it would appear that all the Founding Fathers self-identified as Christians and their devotion to the faith went from one end of the spectrum to the other. This is hardly surprising. The same can be seen in Christianity today. So the statement that the Founding Fathers were not Christian would appear to be incorrect leading us to accept, in the presence of strong contrary evidence, the statement that the Founding Fathers were Christian. Were they the extreme right wing fanatics that the religious right would like us to believe? Some likely were. Most, it would seem, were not. But that's a different question.

So, lets look at the second statement. What values was the US founded on? Well, things like freedom, liberty, equality, truth, justice, etc.... would be up there. Are those values Christian values? Again, the answer seem to be yes. I don't know many Christians who would have problems with those values. So the statement that the US was not founded on Christian values would seem to be false as well and would lead me to accept the statement that the US was founded on Christian values. At the very least it was founded on values that are consistent with Christianity.

So, to me it would appear that, yes, the Founding Fathers were Christians for the most part though they weren't the right wing nutjobs we're supposed to think they were. And yes, the country was founded on Christian values, but the values aren't unique to Christianity.

The question of religious involvement in politics is one for another thread.
 
A.Nonymous said:
I disagree. Jefferson and Franklin were definitely deists. But guys like Hamilton, Jay and Henry were Christians, or at least they claimed to me. I don't see how a system of checks and balances is un-Christian at all. Many churches today are ruled by said systems.

I was just trying to dissect the thing critically. If we're asking whether the Founding Fathers were Christian and whether the country was founded on Christian values, then let's look at the question with a critical eye.

The null hypothesis for both would be something like:

1. The Founding Fathers were not Christian.
2. The US was not founded on Christian values.

Are either of those statements true? What evidence do we have?

Well, as to the first, the Founding Fathers self-identified as Christians in that they all belonged to various Christian denominations. Certainly none of them were atheists and none of them professed an adherence to any other faith besides Christianity. Franklin and Jefferson were both deists. Some of the Founding Fathers were extremely devout Christians. So it would appear that all the Founding Fathers self-identified as Christians and their devotion to the faith went from one end of the spectrum to the other. This is hardly surprising. The same can be seen in Christianity today. So the statement that the Founding Fathers were not Christian would appear to be incorrect leading us to accept, in the presence of strong contrary evidence, the statement that the Founding Fathers were Christian. Were they the extreme right wing fanatics that the religious right would like us to believe? Some likely were. Most, it would seem, were not. But that's a different question.

So, lets look at the second statement. What values was the US founded on? Well, things like freedom, liberty, equality, truth, justice, etc.... would be up there. Are those values Christian values? Again, the answer seem to be yes. I don't know many Christians who would have problems with those values. So the statement that the US was not founded on Christian values would seem to be false as well and would lead me to accept the statement that the US was founded on Christian values. At the very least it was founded on values that are consistent with Christianity.

So, to me it would appear that, yes, the Founding Fathers were Christians for the most part though they weren't the right wing nutjobs we're supposed to think they were. And yes, the country was founded on Christian values, but the values aren't unique to Christianity.

The question of religious involvement in politics is one for another thread.
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Just like everything else religions evolve with the increase of knowledge.

http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/578162-regarding-scientology-2.html#post4671667
 
What's funny the we came here from Europe to get away from religion (specifically Catholicism ). Our country was not built on religion. It later got thrown in by people who wanted to believe their was a all powerful diety. Which we have absolutely no reason to even assume there is one. The idea of it is as crazy as vampires, and less likely than aliens. If there is no proof for something why in the world do sooo many people waste they're lives away arguing that they KNOW it's real..
 
SelfElevated2 said:
What's funny the we came here from Europe to get away from religion (specifically Catholicism ). Our country was not built on religion. It later got thrown in by people who wanted to believe their was a all powerful diety. Which we have absolutely no reason to even assume there is one. The idea of it is as crazy as vampires, and less likely than aliens. If there is no proof for something why in the world do sooo many people waste they're lives away arguing that they KNOW it's real..
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That's not entirely true. The Pilgrims didn't come here because they wanted to practice their atheism in peace. They came because their brand of Christianity was being persecuted. They came to be able to practice their faith without persecution. The very first settlers here did come to get away from an organized religion, but only so they could practice their own organized religion.
 
I always though that the US was founded on the ideal of, "any religion as long as its Protestant, and we won't hang you if its otherwise", which was certainly more enlightened than other parts of the world at the time.

A lot of the reason for the influence of religion in America today is that everyone's religious - teenagers in high school may not even have an atheist in their class. A big part of the strength of religion in the US is that danger is omnipresent. Be it murder, losing your job, falling ill, etc. In other parts of the world these things are uncommon or don't carry massive financial penalties. People can believe in society, not their sky friend.

People are afraid to criticise religion also, in the US. I mean, barbaric religious practices like circumcision are carried out on nearly everyone, and no one says anything
 
ElasticNinja said:
I always though that the US was founded on the ideal of, "any religion as long as its Protestant, and we won't hang you if its otherwise", which was certainly more enlightened than other parts of the world at the time.

A lot of the reason for the influence of religion in America today is that everyone's religious - teenagers in high school may not even have an atheist in their class. A big part of the strength of religion in the US is that danger is omnipresent. Be it murder, losing your job, falling ill, etc. In other parts of the world these things are uncommon or don't carry massive financial penalties. People can believe in society, not their sky friend.

People are afraid to criticise religion also, in the US. I mean, barbaric religious practices like circumcision are carried out on nearly everyone, and no one says anything
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Where in the world are these things uncommon? I would think fears like that, depending on where you live, would be universal to humanity. I'm not sure that the US lives in fear either. Crime rates are down. I don't know anyone who walks around in fear of being murdered in their sleep. The economy is in the crapper, but that's pretty much world wide and some countries are way worse than this one. I think America is religious because it has religious roots mainly. I am seeing a trend lately amongst younger people of not just atheism, but flat out hatred and vitriol for all things religious. So maybe in a few generations that will change to where the religious are persecuted again.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Where in the world are these things uncommon? I would think fears like that, depending on where you live, would be universal to humanity. I'm not sure that the US lives in fear either. Crime rates are down. I don't know anyone who walks around in fear of being murdered in their sleep. The economy is in the crapper, but that's pretty much world wide and some countries are way worse than this one. I think America is religious because it has religious roots mainly. I am seeing a trend lately amongst younger people of not just atheism, but flat out hatred and vitriol for all things religious. So maybe in a few generations that will change to where the religious are persecuted again.
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Well basically the rest of the developed world has comprehensive welfare states so people don't need a God as much. And the murder rate is much higher in the US, I would feel safer in a favela than some American inner cities.
 
ElasticNinja said:
Well basically the rest of the developed world has comprehensive welfare states so people don't need a God as much. And the murder rate is much higher in the US, I would feel safer in a favela than some American inner cities.
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Yeah, I don't know about the US having a high murder rate.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the chart there, it's 4.2 per 100,00. It's more than most places in Europe, but a lot less than Africa, South America, and a lot of other places. I've been to Europe before. There are inner cities there I would not feel safe traveling after dark either.
 
Im pretty sure if you crack open a high school history book from this century it will say Benjamin Franklin was a free Mason and George Washington became a free Mason to further his military career, though it wasn't made clear if he stayed faithful to the lodge.
 
A.Nonymous said:
One thing we've learned from history is that it all comes full circle and we end up repeating it. I wouldn't be shocked if we saw religious trials of some sort or another in the next 100 years.
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we already do, I'm sure you're well aware of overlord xenu and what his followers go through just to join and stay in.
 
A.Nonymous said:
I wouldn't be shocked if we saw religious trials of some sort or another in the next 100 years.
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To be fair, I doubt we could ever justify putting someone on trial for having a skyfriend. For religious practices, probably, I mean Hijab is banned in many places and things like circumcision as I said earlier should not be carried out on children, but for praying and stuff? Nah. Maybe in a hundred years people might be inclined to send you to a psychiatrist or councellor.
 
ElasticNinja said:
To be fair, I doubt we could ever justify putting someone on trial for having a skyfriend. For religious practices, probably, I mean Hijab is banned in many places and things like circumcision as I said earlier should not be carried out on children, but for praying and stuff? Nah. Maybe in a hundred years people might be inclined to send you to a psychiatrist or councellor.
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It's been done before. Heck, just look at parts of the Muslim world. There are places where people are executed for being Christian. And there are places in the world where people are executed for being Muslim. There are Muslim countries where people are punished for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Historically Protestants have burned Catholics at the stake for heresy and vice versa. I don't know that it would go that far in this country (though it has in the past), but I wouldn't be shocked to see people at least shunned socially for being religious. Like I said, I'm seeing a lot of younger people these days who aren't just apathetic towards religion, but filled with hatred for it. You even mention you believe in God and immediately you get hatred and vitriol. So yeah, I could see people put on trial for their religious beliefs. They'll label it as "hate speech" or something. I'm told it's already happening in Canada, but I've honestly not spent any time vetting that. I have no idea if that's true or if it's just the right overblowing stuff as the fringe tends to do.
 
A.Nonymous said:
It's been done before. Heck, just look at parts of the Muslim world. There are places where people are executed for being Christian. And there are places in the world where people are executed for being Muslim. There are Muslim countries where people are punished for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Historically Protestants have burned Catholics at the stake for heresy and vice versa. I don't know that it would go that far in this country (though it has in the past), but I wouldn't be shocked to see people at least shunned socially for being religious.
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Thats relying on people becoming more religious, which really isnt happening outside the US. People without religion can still be filled with hate, I mean in Hungary the Facist party has quite a lot of atheist support, but a lot of this is that its the effective successor to the Communist Party. Once the older generations die out this problem will hopefully die with it. Generally the world is getting more socially liberal, or at least not significantly worse.

A.Nonymous said:
Like I said, I'm seeing a lot of younger people these days who aren't just apathetic towards religion, but filled with hatred for it. You even mention you believe in God and immediately you get hatred and vitriol. So yeah, I could see people put on trial for their religious beliefs. They'll label it as "hate speech" or something. I'm told it's already happening in Canada, but I've honestly not spent any time vetting that. I have no idea if that's true or if it's just the right overblowing stuff as the fringe tends to do.
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Meh, they wont be trying to kill you or anything, be grand. I'd be more worried about aggressive Islam getting to strong a foothold in Europe than some sort of aggressive atheism.
 
A.Nonymous said:
... So yeah, I could see people put on trial for their religious beliefs. They'll label it as "hate speech" or something. ...
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By gosh, it's already happening.:rolleyes:

Hate crimes trial against Amish begins - CNN.com

"According to witnesses cited in a federal affidavit, Mullet "forced extreme punishments" on anyone in his community who defied him, "including forcing members to sleep for days at a time in a chicken coop on his property."In addition, the affidavit alleges that, as the bishop of an Amish clan in Bergholz, Ohio, Mullet had "acts of sexual intimacy" with married women as part of "counseling" to "cleanse them of the devil.""
 
Apparently it is already happening in Canada.

Bible verses regarded as hate literature

http://www.wnd.com/2004/04/24407/

Religious speech is not tolerated if it is considered "hateful". So much for freedom. I could see this extending to the US in the distant future. Look at the Phelps and their clan of haters. How many Americans would vote in favor of a law that would toss all of them in jail? I would bet that law would pass overwhelmingly despite the First Amendment implications. Now imagine a few generations down the road and the number of people who aren't just atheists but flat out hate all religion for whatever reason rises. What kind of laws might we see then?
 
A.Nonymous said:
Apparently it is already happening in Canada.

Bible verses regarded as hate literature

&#8216;Bible as hate speech&#8217;signed into law

Religious speech is not tolerated if it is considered "hateful". So much for freedom. I could see this extending to the US in the distant future. Look at the Phelps and their clan of haters. How many Americans would vote in favor of a law that would toss all of them in jail? I would bet that law would pass overwhelmingly despite the First Amendment implications. Now imagine a few generations down the road and the number of people who aren't just atheists but flat out hate all religion for whatever reason rises. What kind of laws might we see then?
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Well it is kind of hateful, maybe if the bible was classed as historic fiction they could avoid that?

Also, good god (lel) have you even read any of the other articles from this facist site? It is a prime example of religious hate and its writers and owners could do with a nice hefty fine.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/akin-not-far-off-base-in-rape-comment/

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/akin-not-far-off-base-in-rape-comment/

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/its-official-obama-1st-gay-president/


OMG. LOL at this shite.

Its like Stormfront but with a neater layout.
 
Yeah, the site is a bit loony. But the facts are still the same. The guy was indeed fined for placing an ad that was deemed "hateful". Let's say for the sake of argument that it does indeed qualify as "hate speech" (which is about as vague a definition as you can get), to me you still don't censor it. Free speech isn't intended to only protect unpopular speech. It's intended to protect unpopular speech.

There are people out there now who consider any religious speech at all to be hateful. I don't think it's a stretch to see religious persecution in this country in the next hundred years or so.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Yeah, the site is a bit loony. But the facts are still the same. The guy was indeed fined for placing an ad that was deemed "hateful". Let's say for the sake of argument that it does indeed qualify as "hate speech" (which is about as vague a definition as you can get), to me you still don't censor it. Free speech isn't intended to only protect unpopular speech. It's intended to protect unpopular speech.

There are people out there now who consider any religious speech at all to be hateful. I don't think it's a stretch to see religious persecution in this country in the next hundred years or so.
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The only evidence I see for these "facts" are similar propaganda websites. These are just similar echo chambers supported by religious extremists.
 
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